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Author Topic: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile  (Read 110181 times)

ElectroGravityPhysics.com

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2011, 07:33:40 PM »
I recently visited Finsrud at his art gallery in Norway, and talked for many hours about his machine. Finsrud told me very clearly in Norwegian (I also happen to speak Norwegian): 

"the machine will not run more than 14 days, and right now without tuning it will not run more than 2 days.  The machine is not made for perpetual motion, but is simple an experiment in Physics."

I am not sure why people are twisting the facts and making this into a perpetual motion, or over-unity machine - when the inventor himself says it is not.  I saw the machine running with my own eyes, and the speed of the ball slows down - just as Mr. Finsrud pointed out, while I was there.

The machine might be an efficient "pendulum clock" of sorts, but it eventually runs out of steam and certainly does not produce excess energy. 

I find Mr. Finsrud to be a down-to-earth and creative personality, with many interests in both art, science and politics.  He has also built a full miniature city with mirrors, cars, trains, people and lights, but it has nothing to do with Physics.

-Nils
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Low-Q

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2011, 09:44:24 PM »
Quote from: ElectroGravityPhysics.com on September 05, 2011, 07:33:40 PM
I recently visited Finsrud at his art gallery in Norway, and talked for many hours about his machine. Finsrud told me very clearly in Norwegian (I also happen to speak Norwegian): 

"the machine will not run more than 14 days, and right now without tuning it will not run more than 2 days.  The machine is not made for perpetual motion, but is simple an experiment in Physics."

I am not sure why people are twisting the facts and making this into a perpetual motion, or over-unity machine - when the inventor himself says it is not.  I saw the machine running with my own eyes, and the speed of the ball slows down - just as Mr. Finsrud pointed out, while I was there.

The machine might be an efficient "pendulum clock" of sorts, but it eventually runs out of steam and certainly does not produce excess energy. 

I find Mr. Finsrud to be a down-to-earth and creative personality, with many interests in both art, science and politics.  He has also built a full miniature city with mirrors, cars, trains, people and lights, but it has nothing to do with Physics.

-Nils
Nils,

If it ran for several years, so from where did the machine get the energy from? Even running for two days are more than what we can expect from a mechanical deivice of this relatively small size.

I do not say the machine is a perpetual motion machine, or a machine which creates energy from nothing. I think strongly there is kinetic energy applied to this machine in one way or another. Maybe Finsrud know this, but what is the point in explaining how it actually works, when a mysterious and possible incomplete, but yet reasonable and still interesting explanation will do?

I have to make my own theory of operation - beyond Finsruds own explanations. It can be everything from thermal energy to kinetic energy due to gyroscopic energy applied by the rotating earth. The last option is very very weak energy for this size, but might be sufficient to make a selfrunner when adjusted properly.

When Finsrud applied that extra rail to the bicycle rims, the stiffness and mass changed. The altitude of the track changed. So maybe 12 new years have to be spent to adjust the machine properly again. Who knows.

As yourself, I was invited into Finsrud micro world with cities, hills, walking people, a small fish pond, mirrors and sounds. But I did the whole time had the "Perpetuum mobile" in mind. Whish I could be brave enough to ask Finsrud if I could try to start the machine myself. I'm afraid the answer will be a definite NO ;D

I will visit his gallery again. It is not far away - just 1.5 hours driving.

Vidar

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ElectroGravityPhysics.com

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2011, 01:17:54 AM »
Quote from: Low-Q on September 05, 2011, 09:44:24 PM
If it ran for several years, so from where did the machine get the energy from? Even running for two days are more than what we can expect from a mechanical deivice of this relatively small size.

The Finsrud machine is started - just like any pendulum clock - with the hand and setting the mass in motion. 

Most people do not realize it requires energy to lift an object off the ground, and/or set a heavy metal ball into motion...

-Nils
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Low-Q

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2011, 07:01:55 AM »
But those who realize you have to put in some energy, also realize it will stop quite fast and not running for weeks or months. So the first part is easy to understand. The second part is hard to understand. And that is also my point. Given all the moving parts, friction, etc., it is hard to understand the time spand without knowing how it can run for so long time.
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ElectroGravityPhysics.com

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2011, 11:54:33 AM »
Quote from: Low-Q on September 06, 2011, 07:01:55 AM
But those who realize you have to put in some energy, also realize it will stop quite fast and not running for weeks or months. So the first part is easy to understand. The second part is hard to understand. And that is also my point. Given all the moving parts, friction, etc., it is hard to understand the time spand without knowing how it can run for so long time.

Yes, I agree.  Mr. Finsrud has a very low friction device, so it can run for a few days (not months) without stopping.  It is impressive that he can do that.

However, a low friction (knife) bearings with a pendulum can run for a very long time (perhaps days) - just like the one used in the Finsrud machine.

Additionally, it would not surprise me if Finsrud is coupling the force used to push a pendulum around a circle from the rotating Earth into an extra push effect in his machine. 

Here is a science pendulum used to detect the rotation of the Earth.  It is quite amazing to watch, if you have never seen this effect in real life.  When you are standing still on the surface of the Earth, you have no idea your body is actually rotating around a full turn - once per 24 hour.

http://www.3bscientific.com/Oscillations/Foucault-Pendulum-115-V-50-60-Hz-U8403000-115,p_83_110_576_1988.html

-Nils
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AnandAadhar

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2011, 04:54:35 PM »
Quote from: ElectroGravityPhysics.com on September 05, 2011, 07:33:40 PM

I am not sure why people are twisting the facts and making this into a perpetual motion, or over-unity machine - when the inventor himself says it is not.  I saw the machine running with my own eyes, and the speed of the ball slows down - just as Mr. Finsrud pointed out, while I was there.

-Nils
As a matter of fact, Finsrud has attached a plate to the machine saying 'perpetuum mobile' . Even though he calls it also kinetic art, he insists that it keeps running - be it for not more that 14 days - on magnetism and gravity combined with the inertial energy of the ball. It doesn't have to deliver energy, the fact is that is spends energy in an amount we cannot explain from just low friction action and the initial push. He definitely makes a loop that gets very close to a stable run (with autodynamical SE rectifictation or time energy conversion), we under no circumstance have observed before. If not a full perpetuum mobile, it certainly gets very close to it. I think he broke the regular paradigm here and that the common explanations do not apply. We have to take his lead seriously. Successful experiments like this require further theorizing, improving and testing.
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mscoffman

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2011, 05:40:36 PM »
The Finsrud machine has a triple pendulum that would
be able to absorb external rocking motion energy from
building motion in any planar direction. Wind or Coriolis
force. Even from traffic or wave energy, if near a sea shore.
The other thing is from a mechanical diagram I saw it has
bunches of long springs in it's base perfect for absorbing
temperature changes. Remember that there are clocks constructed
that derive all their energy from enviromental minute temperature
changes. Note, that these would couple randomly into the machine's
operation and could ultimately cancel existing energy and the
machine would stop due to probabilistic chaotic situations.

So I think the machine gets small amounts of energy from
multiple existing mechanical enviromental sources.

:S:MarkScoffman
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ElectroGravityPhysics.com

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »
Quote from: AnandAadhar on September 06, 2011, 04:54:35 PM
If not a full perpetuum mobile, it certainly gets very close to it. I think he broke the regular paradigm here and that the common explanations do not apply. We have to take his lead seriously. Successful experiments like this require further theorizing, improving and testing.

Being close does not cut it.  It is sort of like getting close to the speed of light, and thinking that it is easy to jump to faster than speed of light travel...

There are lots of experiments "getting close" to perpetual motion.  Just look at a regular spinning magnet close to a super conductor.  It will spin for a very very long time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLwftUd_qbA

-Nils
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 06:03:53 PM by ElectroGravityPhysics.com »
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ElectroGravityPhysics.com

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2011, 05:55:27 PM »
Quote from: mscoffman on September 06, 2011, 05:40:36 PM
So I think the machine gets small amounts of energy from
multiple existing mechanical enviromental sources.
:S:MarkScoffman

I agree with "MarkScoffman".

I fully support people that are researching alternative energy sources, but this device is not it - although an interesting experiment to learn from.

-Nils
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Low-Q

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2011, 06:47:17 PM »
Anyways, no matter how this machine is built, it is one genious piece of art. If it is ran by the weak coriolis energy, so be it. The low friction machine have to be tuned properly to run as long as possible if I understand correctly. Maybe even the pendulums make the machine inefficient when it starts to wear out after the adjustments?

Vidar
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hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #100 on: September 11, 2011, 10:59:57 PM »
Quote from: ElectroGravityPhysics.com on September 05, 2011, 07:33:40 PM

"the machine will not run more than 14 days, and right now without tuning it will not run more than 2 days.  The machine is not made for perpetual motion, but is simple an experiment in Physics."


To me he did not say this, when I was there...

Quote
I am not sure why people are twisting the facts and making this into a perpetual motion, or over-unity machine - when the inventor himself says it is not. 

I think you are twisting the facts here...

Quote
I saw the machine running with my own eyes, and the speed of the ball slows down - just as Mr. Finsrud pointed out, while I was there.

If it runs more than 1 minute it clearly overcomes the friction forces and
generates energy on its own to overcome the friction on the rail.

Also it did not slow down, otherwise after a few  minutes it would have come to a stop.

When we left after at least about an hour or more  it was still running at the same speed.

If it would not run at the same speed it would get out of sync and would slow down
very rapidly.

It probably converts the magnetic energy via a heat cycle process into mechanical energy,
because without the magnets it would not work.

So the macroscopic movements of the magnet atom spins are tapped and converted into real world
mechanical movement of the iron ball.
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Shanti

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2012, 10:51:24 AM »
I just recently read in the NET-Journal an older article, where Albert Hauser interviewed Mr Finsrud.
It is a very open interview, where Finsrud explains how the machine does work, also with a labeled drawing of the mechanics. Also there he indicated that the machine will run for about 14 days, at most 3 weeks.
He also states, why he did this machine, and why he called it "Perpetuum Mobile". He did this, to get some free public media attention for one of his exhibitions. Just to amaze people, e.g. like illusionists do. You also know, that e.g. an illusionist like Copperfield cannot really fly, even if he says so on stage...
The energy for the machines is stored magnetically!
See it like that: In a normal clock you also pull a spring to store energy which then gets released over a longer time to drive the clock. On bigger clocks this lasts for weeks, until you have to again wind up the clock.
Here it's basically the same, just instead of a spring you take a magnet.
See the principle like that: Take one magnet and something magnetic, or two magnets. When they touch each other, the "spring" is unloaded. Now if you take the magnets apart from each other, you store the energy needed for that as potential magnetic energy (just like in a spring it's stored mechanically). The magnets will now attract each other and want to get closer to each other, just like  a loaded spring. So you can take out this energy slowly over days until the magnets again touch each other and the machine stops.


Nothing fancy...
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AnandAadhar

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2012, 12:00:03 PM »
Okay I've got a magnetic rotor running on a composite pendulum setup. Now I have to make the 'vibrational feedback unit' as Finsrud calls it. Would that be a kind of test of Finsrud's principles?


see

http://www.overunity.com/4449/ipmm-man-device-for-the-proof-of-magnetic-overunity/60/#.UKtd5Y6NvIc
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ace569er

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2013, 06:44:32 AM »
Here are some drawings I made. I need more pics to finish/correct.

The last drawing is just because the replica I saw of it was a joke. The angles while not right, yet alone aligned. Was not to scale on any level. It was like watching someone put an engine together wrong and then wonder why is does not work. When then pistons are miss aligned or the timing is off. Please do it right or not at all. Because it is only a hindrance! I'm not trying to sound mean, just making an important point.
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AnandAadhar

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2013, 09:26:49 AM »
Quote from: ace569er on February 20, 2013, 06:44:32 AM
Here are some drawings I made. I need more pics to finish/correct.

The last drawing is just because the replica I saw of it was a joke. The angles while not right, yet alone aligned. Was not to scale on any level. It was like watching someone put an engine together wrong and then wonder why is does not work. When then pistons are miss aligned or the timing is off. Please do it right or not at all. Because it is only a hindrance! I'm not trying to sound mean, just making an important point.


Nice work, very helpful. But where did you see any replica of Finsrud?
Are you referring to any of my descriptions?
I never pretended to replicate anything of Finsrud, nor have I heard of anyone trying to replicate his setup.
I guess you are the first who cincerely tries to offer a proper model here.
So far I just tried to figure out if there is any lawfulness in the principles of operation he seems to base himself upon.
I Couldn't find any confirmation by the way,  of what I thought that would be as yet.
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