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Author Topic: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile  (Read 93346 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2006, 02:47:52 AM »
Stefan, you write:

?Does he hold the pendulum magnet in his hand or
does he fix the thread holding it onto some kind of stand or
upper rod ?
Did the pendulum really never come to a stillstand when you watched this
experiment ?
How exactly was this setup ?
I think this could be much more important than hos whole machine
he has...?

No, he doesn?t hold the magnet in his hands. It is suspended on the ceiling. As I said, at the end of the first movie you can see Finsrud drilling a hole in the ceiling, preparing for the pendulum experiment.

The pendulum eventually comes to rest but it takes much longer time for it to come to rest when there are magnets, although the starting height is the same.

I don?t think the experiment with the pendulums is more important than the machine itself. There?s a lot more needed in studying just the time and trajectory of the swinging magnet than what I saw to draw serious conclusions. The conclusions from the device are straightforward and are shocking (in saying this I?m excluding fraud for which there is no evidence). Finsrud?s machine is the most shocking and conclusive experiment so far in the area of magnetic motors and of perpetuum mobile in general.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2006, 02:47:52 AM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2006, 03:00:56 AM »
@mickestocks2006, the longest time I understand has been weeks. Exactly how many I don?t know. The device stops by itself, due to slight constructive disparities appearing in the course of its work, wear of the tracks etc., and causing it to get out of synch. This in no way, however, proves that it isn?t a perpetuum mobile.

The fourth pendulum is enclosed inside the supporting column and is somewhat thicker than the rest. At its lower end there is a set of magnets attached facing another set of magnets imbedded in clay at the bottom of the device. These bottom magnets also affect slightly the swinging of the main three pendulums. You can see this in the video in these parts where the bottoms of the pendulums are seen. The displacement of the fourth pendulum or ?pendulum? is very slight and depends on the position of the heavy steel ball (~820g) on the track. As I said these subtle additions to the construction (the fourth pendulum and the magnetic effect on the three external pendulums) ma be helpful for the running of the device since they ensure certain instability of the track. However, the main effect is due to the ingenious solution of the ?sticky spot? problem ? much like the SMOT solves it. Whenever the ball approaches the magnets it retracts so that the ball can overcome the ?sticky spot?.  Once the ball has overcome the sticky spot the gravity returns the magnets in their initial position with maximum attraction. Think about it ? how close to the SMOT this is. However, here, in Finsrud?s device, instead of the ball escaping the magnets, the magnets escape the ball. And all that is self-inflicted, much like in Torbay motor.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2006, 03:18:04 AM »
@Stefan, back to the magnetic-cooling system. The phenomenon you refer to cannot explain away Finsrud?s perpetuum mobile. Aside for the fact that it is not at all evident that this magnetic-cooling effect is present in Finsrud?s steel ball, even if it is present its effect would be the opposite to those necessary to drive the ball. Think about it, the magnetic-cooling effect in the experiments you gave link to is due to imparting work to the system ? you need to bring the material into a magnetic field and then remove it from there. There are many other principles which use work to produce a refrigerator effect. Your fridge doesn?t cool down spontaneously, you have to plug it to the mains.

Thus, even if there were a cooling effect in Finsrud?s device of the type you describe it would consume rather than produce work. As a matter of fact, the common materials (stainless steel and ceramic magnets) are not known to produce any tangible heat effects due to the introduction in and out of the field which sometimes is very rapid and the fields are very high. The article you cite describes special conditions and very special alloys. And, as I said, even if Finsrud had used such alloys, he would not have been able to have the ball turning for hours with no input energy observing at the same time the cooling effect you describe ? the cooling effect requires spending of energy.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2006, 03:18:04 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2006, 03:52:02 AM »
you need to bring the material into a magnetic field and then remove it from there.

Exactly this is happening.
You are bringing the iron ball into the field of the permanent magnet
and then you are removing the permanent magnet again as the ball rolls on.

So there is probably the magneto-caloric effect happening.
Okay, the effect is very small, but it will be enough to convert
environmental heat on a 100 % conversion process into
mechanical energy to overcome the frictional losses
of the ball rolling on the alu rail track.

It is probably only in the range of 1/100th degrees celsius
and the ball having friction on the rail will also heat up on the rail,
so it probably compensates back and forth...

This so is a perpetuum mobile of a second kind,
as it violates the second "law" of thermodynamics,
which is by the way no law, but only an experience
which now has been proven through the Finsrud
device to be no law at all.

We can really easily explain it by violation
of the second "law", no need to violate the first law
of thermodynamics.

But surely it is a great achievement and really very
ground breaking !

2. So how long is the pendulum thread in the 12 magnets experiments ?
about as long  as the room is high ? So he hangs it to the ceiling
and it bounces back and forth over the magnets laying on the floor ?
Did he find a position, where the pendulum magnet never
stopped ? Or did it come to a rest ?
Only much later ?
How long is the time compared to each other ?
Many thanks.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2006, 04:19:32 AM »
@Stefan, you wrote:

?Exactly this is happening.
You are bringing the iron ball into the field of the permanent magnet
and then you are removing the permanent magnet again as the ball rolls on.?

Not exactly. Think about who is doing what. It?s easier to understand it in terms of a SMOT. The net energy when the steel ball travels along a closed loop is zero ? put the ball at the entrance of the ramp, let it go up the ramp, let it fall off the ramp and then bring it back to the beginning of the ramp. In doing so no net energy has been gained in the magnetic field. Magnetic field is a conservative field. Whatever energy has been gained when the ball was attracted by the magnet (heating in your terms) is lost upon the return of the ball to the initial position (equivalent cooling has taken place).

The excess energy we are so much concerned about is produced in the gravitational field ? magnetic field has lifted the ball spontaneously (in the gravitational field) to a height h and gravitational energy mgh has been imparted to the ball at the expense of no energy spent. This is the excess energy (in simplified terms) which is created out of nothing and which, if the device is properly made, makes it self-sustaining.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2006, 04:19:32 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2006, 04:25:50 AM »
@Stefan, pendulum thread is almost as long as the height of the room ? you can get a feeling for the dimensions of the room from the video.

Yes, he does exactly that ? the magnets are on the floor, randomly spread (he tosses change and places magnets where the coins are, heads or tails corresponding to S and N poles) and he swings the pendulum over them.

I don?t think there was a situation whereby the pendulum magnet never stopped swinging. It always comes to a rest but sometimes deflected from the equilibrium at a certain height over the floor.

As far as the time goes, I don?t have quantitative results. Will be good to carry out a thorough study applying some way to measure, say, the exact length of the trajectory of the pendulum over the magnets and compare it with the length of the trajectory of the regular pendulum.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2006, 04:54:23 AM »
@Stefan, you wrote:

“Exactly this is happening.
You are bringing the iron ball into the field of the permanent magnet
and then you are removing the permanent magnet again as the ball rolls on.”

Not exactly. Think about who is doing what. It’s easier to understand it in terms of a SMOT. The net energy when the steel ball travels along a closed loop is zero – put the ball at the entrance of the ramp, let it go up the ramp, let it fall off the ramp and then bring it back to the beginning of the ramp. In doing so no net energy has been gained in the magnetic field. Magnetic field is a conservative field. Whatever energy has been gained when the ball was attracted by the magnet (heating in your terms) is lost upon the return of the ball to the initial position (equivalent cooling has taken place).

The excess energy we are so much concerned about is produced in the gravitational field – magnetic field has lifted the ball spontaneously (in the gravitational field) to a height h and gravitational energy mgh has been imparted to the ball at the expense of no energy spent. This is the excess energy (in simplified terms) which is created out of nothing and which, if the device is properly made, makes it self-sustaining.

Omnibus,
surely gravity also helps in the Finsrud device,
but this might be just a storage field it is using.
( to temporarly store the height difference)

I guess, whatever its main function principle is,
the 1st law is not violated, but just the second "law"
and that heat-conversion is also at play,
also if you can?t see and measure it directly,
as the power is only in the milliWatts range.

But with very exact calorimetrical measurements
this heat conversion will probably also be seen.

Anyway, we should better concentrate to
build simular units or work out a better scaled
up device with more power output.
Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2006, 04:54:23 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2006, 04:57:21 AM »
@Stefan, pendulum thread is almost as long as the height of the room – you can get a feeling for the dimensions of the room from the video.

Yes, he does exactly that – the magnets are on the floor, randomly spread (he tosses change and places magnets where the coins are, heads or tails corresponding to S and N poles) and he swings the pendulum over them.

I donÂ’t think there was a situation whereby the pendulum magnet never stopped swinging. It always comes to a rest but sometimes deflected from the equilibrium at a certain height over the floor.

As far as the time goes, I donÂ’t have quantitative results. Will be good to carry out a thorough study applying some way to measure, say, the exact length of the trajectory of the pendulum over the magnets and compare it with the length of the trajectory of the regular pendulum.

Yes, this would be a good first experiment to see,
if a pendulum of the same weight and
without magnets on the floor will swing a shorter
time period, than the 12 magnets experiments.

As Finsrud said, he got the idea to his device from
this experiment and that due to his "chaos theory"
the pendulum will never come to a still stand, when the optimum
magnets positions on the floor are found, this is probably
the main experiment, which should prove his theory right
or wrong.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2006, 05:11:51 AM »
Stefan, you know for a long time my contention that we don't even need other devices to prove violation of the first law f thermodynamics -- SMOT is enough for this purpose. As I explained in my previous posting, travel along a closed loop in a magnetic field leads to no net energy. Heating is negated by cooling. Violation of the first law occurs when in the gravitational field part of the closed loop is covered for free, spontaneously helped by the magnetic field. Just this example is quite enough to abolish the first law. No net heating and cooling. Simply producing of energy out of nothing, only due to proper disposition of the parts of the machine in overlapping conservative fields.

I can't agree more, however, that for a wider acceptance, every one of us should hold in his hand self-sustaining devices based on the above principle. It is well known that Greg Watson, the founder of this field has had closed-loop SMOTs and even sold some. He is nowhere to be found, however. A closed-loop SMOT of Greg Watson type is much simpler than Finsrud's device. I think Finsrud has added throughout the years redundancies which make it harder to reproduce. Anyway, replication by independent parties of any of these self-sustaining devices is crucial for wider acceptance of the perpetuum mobile concept.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2006, 05:11:51 AM »
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Offline Gregory

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2006, 02:32:35 PM »
Hi Omnibus!

This is a great thread!

Thank you very much for the videos, amazing! I appreciate it very much.
I known the finsrud machine for years, and this is my favourite, which really works.

I read this discussion with interest, and have some thougts to say. I very agree with Finsrud and you, in the matter of building 3 dimensional machines rather than 2 dimensional. I also had this thought long before. With 3 dimensions we have more possibilities than with 2 dimensions. Nature works in 3 dimensions.

I don't think that Finsrud's machine violates the conservation of energy law. I think the long mentioned "perpetuum mobile" is possible without this violation.

I have a vision about this machine. It has very interesting properties. It's more an artwork, not just a machine, or an experiment. Best artwork in this category I've ever seen.
The main parts are: 6 magnets, 4 pendulums (with additional magnets), a circular track, and a steel ball. (Do I understand Right?)

In my opinion the machine have to be considered as a complex system. It uses motion to induce motion.
For the energy input, It uses the gravity force, the force of the magnets, and a "push" by a person to start. But once the system is started, it uses motion to induce motion, and uses the induced motion to induce a new one. Uses force to induce another force.

When the ball is moving, it causes the pendulums to keep swinging.
When the pendulums are swinging, they cause the sloping of the circle track and the moving of the magnets, And    these processes cause the ball to keep moving. And here we are...
Also, the cylindrical red (pot?) magnets cause the ball to "lose weight" in the proper positions, and this process help the pendulums to slope the circular track. I guess the lowest position of the track is (always?) before the ball in the direction where the ball is moving. Maybe it's less than 1 degree, but it can be enough.

Many people commited the fault of "making the track to change too much", and it didn't work. And we can see in Finsrud's machine, small differences can achieve great effects, if everything are in the correct relation. For me it looks some kind of balance. Or a kind of "balanced unbalance". When it's in synch, it capable to operate for long periode of time.

I wonder what to do, with the small vibrations... They're very intersting, and artistic. I guess the vibrations are not the main principles of the machine, but in the other hand... There are some truth in them, as Finsrud mentions. When many small vibrations act together in the right way, it can achieve a considerable effect, right? Just think freely, not only about this machine... This vibration thing is pretty strange... And artistic... ;)

Now, back to the conservation of energy for some unusual example...
Take a cup of tea, or a steel cube... :D  And place on the table. What happens? Nothing?
The object stay on the table, and don't move. But... This cup of tea continously receives the force of gravity, and produce a force against the table. However, the table is strong enough to keep the cup in its position, and no motion occur. With more precise words, the cup of tea uses 100% of gravity input and produces 0% useful work. So this "device" has an efficiency of 0%.
Now lets place a steel ball on the table. If the table is perfectly horizontal, the same happens. But maybe the table slopes a bit, and if the ball weight enough, begins to bowl. What happens?
The ball receives 100% of the gravity force, and converts perhaps 1% to movement.

Similar to Finsrud's machine... This is the reason why I think there is no need for the violation of the conservation law. Simply it isn't violated in my viewpoint. Maybe It can be violated somehow, if we think about galaxies and galaxies, but not here and now. (The same thing occurs with magnets, just a bit different.)

If somebody out there will present a machine next week, which is an operational gravity wheel, that device is also only capable to convert few percent of the total gravity force. But can have an important property: to do a few continous useful work. The most efficient device now, the steel ball, which you bring to the top of a skyscraper, and release it. However, this ball fall only once by itself, so can't do continous work, and not too useful.

About friction... I believe the friction is not the reason of the unsuccess. This is bullshit. The real reason is the lack of right (simple, natural) knowledge, the unknowness of the right ways.

The heat or the cool of the steel ball or other parts... I don't think it is important.
I think Finsrud himself never thought about a lot of scientific thing, you're talking about. Of course I can be wrong, but he don't needed to do that.
What I think is, he has his own imaginations and ideas, designed, performed his experiments, have done a lot of hard work with his new artwork, and finally let it move...

Thanks for him very much!

Greetings,

Offline noodles

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2006, 05:23:36 PM »
Random thoughts:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en
@ 41:10 -> 41.30

When you hear that click.  It is something which flashes, seems like an electrical click. Always when the ball is passing a particular point on the system it clicks. 

Personally, I think the pendulums may just be for show.  It is a 1kg ball on a almost frictionless plane.  if it was pushed to start the sytem, that alone is a large amount of energy injected into the system. 

I will now explain what I think the flashing clicking is -
In my opinion it is an electromagnet.  It attractes the ball just before it passes it and switches off again as soon as the ball has passed, thereby speeding its progress without pulling it back.

Maybe inside the column is a coil of wire, a magnetic field (as found on the pendulums) moving past a wire generates electricity.  this could be collected in a capacitor to power the electromagnet.

Alternatively the sound could be a resetting mechanism or some method used to give the pendulums a "kick" to keep them going...but with the quality of the video, it is hard to discern the sound exactly.

Also I believe without the middle bits, the ball, once given a push to get it up to speed as seen in the videos will continue in its orbit for a very long time without any mechanism due to its weight and smoothness of plane.

Shak

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2006, 05:23:36 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2006, 07:41:01 PM »
@noodles, you wrote:

?Personally, I think the pendulums may just be for show.  It is a 1kg ball on a almost frictionless plane.  if it was pushed to start the sytem, that alone is a large amount of energy injected into the system.?

The energy from the initial push cannot explain the weeks of work of the device. Take away the magnets and this same energy from the initial push will only be enough for just several turns of the ball.

As far as clicks go, they are more than one ? at least three less loud and the one more clear. Clicks are detrimental to the functioning of the device since they're waste of energy which drives it. Therefore, in the analysis (because they are adverse factor) clicks may work in favor of the device and not against it.

?I will now explain what I think the flashing clicking is -
In my opinion it is an electromagnet.  It attractes the ball just before it passes it and switches off again as soon as the ball has passed, thereby speeding its progress without pulling it back.
Maybe inside the column is a coil of wire, a magnetic field (as found on the pendulums) moving past a wire generates electricity.  this could be collected in a capacitor to power the electromagnet.?

You?re suggesting fraud. There have been groups that have studied such a possibility, using very sensitive instruments capable of detecting very slight electromagnetic phenomena. No such phenomena have been detected. Proposals such as yours to explain away the Finsrud effect have been around at the beginning and all of them have failed to detect any foul play.

?Alternatively the sound could be a resetting mechanism or some method used to give the pendulums a "kick" to keep them going...but with the quality of the video, it is hard to discern the sound exactly.?

This is another suggestion for fraud but it is a mere speculation. More is needed to accept your proposal.

?Also I believe without the middle bits, the ball, once given a push to get it up to speed as seen in the videos will continue in its orbit for a very long time without any mechanism due to its weight and smoothness of plane.?

As I said, without the magnets the ball will only make several turns and will stop despite the initial push. If have something else in mind, explain it better.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 08:15:12 PM by Omnibus »

Offline Gregory

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2006, 10:03:12 PM »

The energy from the initial push cannot explain the weeks of work of the device. Take away the magnets and this same energy from the initial push will only be enough for just several turns of the ball.

As far as clicks go, they are more than one ? at least three less loud and the one more clear. Clicks are detrimental to the functioning of the device since they're waste of energy which drives it. Therefore, in the analysis (because they are adverse factor) clicks may work in favor of the device and not against it.

As I said, without the magnets the ball will only make several turns and will stop despite the initial push. If have something else in mind, explain it better.

This is very right, I agree with Omnibus. Without the magnets, or without the pendulums, the ball will take only several turns, and stop, it's sure. If you don't believe, You can try for yourself.

About fraud suggestion... Finsrud is an artist. In this case he has no interst to do something fraudulant. He didn't advertise his moving sculpture too much, or perhaps didn't at all. Others talked about it much more. He just placed his artwork in his gallery, and that's all. Visitors can see it. There is no evidence for fraud.

I think the clicks are not for a hidden trick. Also the speculated coil, capacitor, and electromagnet can't produce   enough power to do that.

This machine is really a unique one. (Not always needed to look for a hidden trick, or fraud.)
From one more viewpoint it can be considered as a system, which able to continously store some energy received from gravity and the fields of permanent magnets, a kind of storage device. The machine resets itself every turn, and continously store the energy in its own motion. (And use its own motion to resets itself.)
I think at the loud click, the ball give a small push to the pendulums to keep them swinging. The pendulums react each other through various mechanisms, and the kick has been divided.

This machine is quite complex (below the surface), really a great work of art.
Perhaps doesn't run for a century, but prove the possibility.
And everything can be better, and better...

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2006, 12:02:59 PM »
It is said,
that it only stops, if the clay that holds the magnets
in the lower buttom magnet plate dries out too much.

But this could take a few months.

The click sound probably comes from the one small
sawing hole in the track.
You can see it, when the camera zooms across the rail track.
When the ball goes over this small slit then it probably makes this
click sound.
I have to rewatch it to be able to hear it.

Offline noodles

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2006, 12:09:03 PM »
Hello,

I never said Fraud.  They were random thoughts about other possibilities.

His reluctance to monetize this discovery is what is causing the doubt.  If it was so good and you wish to help society, release plans, open up the centre so we can all see and allow a replice of the device to be made.  On the other hand, if money is your passion, then take that route, but at least take some route rather than dangling a carrot...

From what I have read, it seems like he has moved on to creating other art and is reluctant to monetize.

I have tried the dangling magnetic pendulum over magnets experiment before, is always seems to find a point of stability and equilibrium.

What is your explanations for the flash at the point in the video in my original post? (clearly visible at 41:12 and 41:17 it is yellow, at bottom of tall spring thing with yellow top)

 

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