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Author Topic: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile  (Read 93350 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2006, 02:35:46 AM »
Please see the following links showing continuous work of Finsrud?s perpetuum mobile:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253&hl=en

The demonstration of this device, the first in modern history on public display, proves that constructing of a functioning perpetuum mobile is possible. The very fact that a perpetuum mobile such as Finsrud?s can be constructed is in direct violation of the Helmholtz? definition of the first law of thermodynamics, stating that such machine cannot be made. This has far-reaching scientific and engineering consequences the foremost of which is the direct demonstration of violation of the principle of conservation of energy.

The importance of violation of the principle of conservation of energy is not only that it will lead one day to cutting our bills or allowing us to drive without paying for gas. This violation is one of those rare sudden shifts in the very basis of our knowledge leading to profound impact on our understanding of how nature works. Its ramifications will lead to deep changes in how our society functions. This unexpected prospect for societal changes induced by seemingly inauspicious change in knowledge is one of the reasons why the resistance of official structures is so strong and why the walls protecting the first law of thermodynamics are so impenetrable despite the evidence. However, now that we have Finsrud?s public demonstration and in view of the new methods of communication it will be more difficult to make it appear that such a device does not exist. This might have happened in the past with other similar devices which has led to establishing the widespread convenient perception that perpetuum mobile is impossible.

The principle of conservation of energy, as any other principle in science, can be overthrown by just one valid experiment at odds with it. Finsrud?s perpetuum mobile (developing the ingenious idea of Greg Watson?s SMOT) is that crucial experiment needed to abolish the principle of conservation of energy.

Finsrud considers his creation a sculpture. However, it obviously has more potential than a mere sculpture and can be considered one of the best examples of the beautiful harmony between art and science.

Among many things, one good aspect of the existence of Finsrud?s device is that it precludes all the attempts to capitalize on such machines. I?ll say a little more on this further.

With the public display of his device Finsrud has given an example of how people who claim successful construction of a perpetuum mobile should behave. Secretive tactics and various games played by the likes of Torbay, Steorn, etc., etc. complicate further the already complicated situation with the acceptance of these devices by the world of science, to the detriment of the real needs of the world.

As is usual in science, in order for a phenomenon to be accepted as legitimate, the author should make full disclosure of the principles it is based upon and should make as much effort as possible to accommodate others to reproduce it successfully.

I understand that some people entertain the idea that such devices can turn into a golden goose for them and they do their best to play the hide and seek game to lure investors and to capitalize on them in any way they can. I am not even speaking about those ready to commit outright fraud. I am talking about individuals having legitimate claims in that area. Their behavior, sadly, will neither produce the golden egg, nor will make them known as the pioneers in this new field. What they will achieve is to only censure themselves and hinder acceptance of the idea of perpetuum mobile by society. I don?t think there are many reasonable people in this world who would believe that the patents that have been issued so far touching on the idea of perpetuum mobile have any merit, save the curious decisions of some parties to not even look at such proposals, probably fearing that some of them might turn out legitimate in the end. The idea has been known for centuries and now we have someone (Finsrud) who has publicly displayed a working perpetuum mobile. This guarantees sure challenging followed by voiding of any patent that has been issued so far (issuing of a patent doesn?t mean it cannot be successfully challenged).

Besides, even if someone manages to maintain a patent on some detail of the functioning of such a device, it is quite unlikely that he or she would be able to license it to a company or have long term success in marketing it. Perpetuum mobile is exactly what business doesn?t like. Business is about hooking up people to products, making these people dependent. Perpetuum mobile is just the opposite ? in the long run it frees the people making them anything but customers.

And this is not because someone evil wants to destroy business. If any destruction of business  should occur it will come about naturally if the truth is admitted in society. For better or worse, business has to be made to abide by the natural laws and not continue to set up all kinds of artificial social circumstances, such as selectively suppressing certain innovations while enhancing others, aimed at creating and cornering customers for its own selfish profit at the expense of the needs of society at large.

Thus, it would be wise if anyone who has successfully constructed a perpetuum mobile to take example from Finsrud, come out and openly present it to the world with all possible detail, forgetting about all those non-disclosure agreements and finagling. Best is to submit texts for publication in journals such as Nature or Physical Review Letters with thorough quantitative description of the devices. Undoubtedly, as a byproduct of such activity people such as magician James Randi may be forced to write in the meantime a check of $1,000,000 when others succeed in replicating the machine. On the other hand, if one is interested in further material benefits, such will inevitably come about by channels other than the secretiveness of a business plan. A certain level of idealism, so much lacking nowadays, would be very appropriate, however. After all, isn?t the very idea of perpetuum mobile the essence of idealistic perception of energy, free from materialistic chains the society has attached to it?

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2006, 02:35:46 AM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2006, 05:19:28 AM »
Thanks for the videos.
Looks like the magnets and steel ball is just cooled down,
so only violation of second law.
I think 1st law is always unbreakable.
This seems to be a property  of nature.

BTW, do you know, if both rail-halfs move or just the inner one ?
Have to watch it still with the external video player.
Many thanks for making this available.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2006, 06:51:23 AM »
Stefan, we spoke about this before and, as I remember, we agreed to disagree. Finsrud's device demonstrates violation of the principle of conservation of energy which in thermodynamics is expressed as its first law. Recall the definition of first law: no periodically working machine can be constructed which would produce work without the spending of energy of any kind. Finsrud's machine proves just the opposite and so far it is the only self-sustained machine ever demonstrated publicly in the modern history (which is enough to abolish the first law -- just one machine like Finsrud's is enough for that purpose). The steel ball turns (does work) for hours, days even weeks without the input of energy of any kind, never mind at the expense of cooling down the environment.

The first law can be broken due to appropriate disposition of the parts of the machine in conservative fields. The easiest way to understand this is to analyze the SMOT. Probably you recall the long conversation on that topic I had with someone. Such appropriately constructed machines demonstrate that the nature of energy is more complex than hitherto thought and that energy can be created literally "out of nothing", as it were. Thus for the functioning of such machines it is not necessary to have some initial quantity of something called "energy" stored somewhere. The nature of energy turns out to be such that it can appear due to purely constructive solutions always maintaining non-equilibrium, always tending towards equilibrium and never reaching it. Recall the analogy with the cat chasing its tail and dangling the carrot in front of the donkey.

As far as the track, you can see from both videos that the tracks are immovably attached to each other so both move at the same time.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 08:02:28 AM by Omnibus »

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2006, 06:51:23 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2006, 01:57:15 PM »
Hi Omnibus,
many thanks for your videos and observations.

Well we still disagree with the thermodynamic laws,
as this machine could also be explained by the right
turning cycle processes in a 
B ( magnetic flux density) over H ( magnetic field) magnetic diagram
and thus converting environmental heat
directly to mechanical energy via a ferro-magnetic
right turning cycle process and thus violating
the 2nd law of thermodynamic.

I think this is the case for many magnet setups and
special magnet ferromagnetic pulse motors with higher
than 100 % output, e.g. SMOT , LUTEC, STEORN and
some others..

I just think the first law, that states, that energy can not be created,
but only converted,  is a basic principle of nature, otherwise nature
would have already collapsed.

But in the case of the Finsrud device it is very hard to prove,
because the energies are so small, that are at play there
and only a fraction of a degree Celsius would be needed to
cool down to keep the iron ball moving, so this would really be hard
to measure...

Please can you tell us more about the future plans of Finrud,
what he wants to do with his invention ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2006, 02:38:21 PM »
Omnibus,
what is hard to see is,
how much the whole aluminium rail track is tilting back and forth (up and down)
so the ball can roll on  ?
Is this only 1 degrees or how much about ?

How long does it take Finsrud to start the machine , when he has stopped it ?
How does he exactly start ?
Just give the ball a spin with his hands and
then adjusting the 120 degrees out of phase
mechanical oscillation weights to have the right frequency and phase relationsship to each other ?
What, if these "swinger units" are just a bit
deadjusted, will it then get to a stop ?

Does it have any effect, that these yellow push down spring like metal bar-rods
are shaking and just vibrating and thus giving
multiple pulses to the swinger units ?
Did you talk about these things with Finsrud ?

Many thanks.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2006, 02:38:21 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2006, 03:06:16 PM »
Hi Stefan,

Aside from being occupied with his artwork (for instance, he was just finishing the statue for the Norwegian Oscars) and students, Finsrud is working on at least a couple of other technical projects right now. He showed me the prototype of one of them ? a machine utilizing the energy of the sun. Another one is using the energy of the tidal waves in Oslo fjord. He also showed me prototypes of numerous other projects for perpetuum mobile which have led him to the successful one.

I feel, however, that he has had it with the project in question. Many people have come throughout the years to study it and nothing suspicious has been found about it. He has a feeling that should do it and that it has been publicized enough. Unfortunately, he doesn?t realize that this most important technical creation of his needs more than a couple of interviews in the Norwegian press, a presentation as a curiosity on Discovery channel and MTV and a note about it in a Utah brochure in order to convince the world that something revolutionary is going on there. I told you already what, for instance, two physics professors at Oslo University think about it. They are convinced he has used a trick to pull our leg, although when asked what that trick might be they couldn?t identify it. They think it?s up to Finsrud to prove he hasn?t used a trick while I think it?s just the opposite. The burden of proof is on them. They are making the statement that there must be a trick, therefore it?s up to them to prove its validity. I will pursue this problem further and will let you know about the development.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2006, 03:35:24 PM »
Stefan, you say:

?as this machine could also be explained by the right
turning cycle processes in a B ( magnetic flux density) over H ( magnetic field) magnetic diagram and thus converting environmental heat directly to mechanical energy via a ferro-magnetic right turning cycle process and thus violating the 2nd law of thermodynamic.?

Are you suggesting that attraction by magnets is a violation of the second law of thermodynamics? What does this right-turning cycle process have to do with the laws of thermodynamics? I don?t get it.

This I also don?t understand:

?I just think the first law, that states, that energy can not be created,
but only converted,  is a basic principle of nature, otherwise nature
would have already collapsed.?

Why would the violation of the first thermodynamic law lead to the collapse of the Universe? There?s nothing that would suggest that.

As far as the tilting goes, it is less than 1mm at the periphery. You can see the tilting in several places of the videos I posted. This was one of the things I specifically paid attention to when taking the video.

?How long does it take Finsrud to start the machine , when he has stopped it ?
How does he exactly start ?
Just give the ball a spin with his hands and
then adjusting the 120 degrees out of phase
mechanical oscillation weights to have the right frequency and phase relationsship to each other ?
What, if these "swinger units" are just a bit
deadjusted, will it then get to a stop ??

I have video of that too and if I find time I may post it as well. First Finsrud cleaned carefully the track with the paper seen on the first of the two videos I posted. What surprised me was that, unlike what I expected, Finsrud didn?t take special measures to synchronize the pendulums. He just slightly pushed the ball with his hands, enough to make it roll on the track and then slightly slapped it a couple of times. It somehow got into synchronism by itself. Mind you, while doing this Finsrud warned me that the machine probably won?t work this time since he felt the sound it was producing didn?t sound healthy to him. Luckily, however, it ran during the whole time I was in the gallery that day ? from around 12 at noon until around 4:30 in the afternoon. Enough to convince me this was not a trivial matter.

?Does it have any effect, that these yellow push down spring like metal bar-rods are shaking and just vibrating and thus giving multiple pulses to the swinger units ? Did you talk about these things with Finsrud ??

First, these vibrations are self-induced. They are due to the rotation of the ball not vice versa. Finsrud thinks that they have a lot to do with the functioning of the machine. Remember, there is a fourth pendulum inside the supporting column with magnets attached to it facing a set of magnets embedded in clay. This fourth pendulum swings slightly as the ball is turning.

Finsrud carried out a special experiment with 12 ring magnets and a pendulum with another ring magnet to show me how he actually started this project. I have this on video too. As a matter of fact, you can hear at the end of the first video I posted the sound of the drill when he was preparing to show me the experiment with the ring magnets. He thinks that?s the gist of the whole story ? everything is set up in such a way, using various springs, as well as that magnetic pendulum phenomenon, to disallow ever reaching equilibrium.

I don?t deny these additions may help but, as I said before, I don?t think that is the essence of the principle driving his machine. The essence I think is based on the SMOT and this is an ingenious rendition of a continuous SMOT.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2006, 03:35:24 PM »
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Offline Liberty

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2006, 03:47:44 PM »
Hi Omnibus,
many thanks for your videos and observations.

Well we still disagree with the thermodynamic laws,
as this machine could also be explained by the right
turning cycle processes in a 
B ( magnetic flux density) over H ( magnetic field) magnetic diagram
and thus converting environmental heat
directly to mechanical energy via a ferro-magnetic
right turning cycle process and thus violating
the 2nd law of thermodynamic.

I think this is the case for many magnet setups and
special magnet ferromagnetic pulse motors with higher
than 100 % output, e.g. SMOT , LUTEC, STEORN and
some others..

I just think the first law, that states, that energy can not be created,
but only converted,  is a basic principle of nature, otherwise nature
would have already collapsed.

But in the case of the Finsrud device it is very hard to prove,
because the energies are so small, that are at play there
and only a fraction of a degree Celsius would be needed to
cool down to keep the iron ball moving, so this would really be hard
to measure...

Please can you tell us more about the future plans of Finrud,
what he wants to do with his invention ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.


Just want to throw in an observation about the model prototype I that I built.  (A magnet motor that uses a small amount of power).  I found that there is no detectable temperature change in any part of the device, except where electrical power is being expended.  The magnets appear to maintain the same room temperature that the room is set to, whether the motor is running or at rest.  There does not appear to be any change in temperature (heat or cold) at all. There is no more temperature change than if you caused the magnets to interact manually.

Liberty

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2006, 03:58:09 PM »
Stefan, I don?t know why you?re mentioning STEORN. First, STEORN haven?t demonstrated anything and therefore shouldn?t be considered in the discussions. Nevertheless, I?ll mention that, as far as I understand, theirs is a motor which needs some energy input. If that?s the case then we have something much more interesting ? the motor of Paul Sprain which was discussed here. Unfortunately, due to the need of energy input Sprain?s device is much inferior to Finsrud?s in demonstrating the invalidity of the firstl thermodynamic law. The sceptics love to have input. In Finsrud?s case whereby there is no input energy they cannot say anything ? chess mate. They can only resort to ridiculous suggestions such as fraud which it obviously is not.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2006, 03:58:09 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2006, 06:44:40 PM »
Well, magnetic motors can use a magneto-caloric process
and it can be described via the BH diagram with right turning circular
processes like stirling motors can be described in PV diagrams.
So there is an interaction between moving Bloch walls and
magnetic domains inside iron material ( like the steel ball in Finsrud?s device)
and in magnets and the energy needed to do this which will probably in Finsrud?s case come
from the magnets which will cool then down by themself maybe 1/100th degrees
of Celsius and convert this into the attraction energy onto the steel ball
and thus converts heat energy into mechanical motion of the iron steel ball.
Also the steel ball will probably also cool down itsself a bit cause it can be described
as a "positive" hysteresis, but the frictional forces on the rail track will
also heat it again a bit, so it probably compensates again the cooling...
Also if you calculate the heat needed for such a small friction losses to overcome,
it is probably only in the MilliWatts range and to cool down air to extract Milliwatts
of power would only need 1/hundreds of Celsius to do this, so a very small
temperature drop only, which is hardly at all measureable...

I would really love to see the other basic experiment with the 12 ring magnets.
I think this could be well replicated and if you put coils around the ring magnets
and the pendulum comes never to rest you could also extract some free
energy with this via the outpt coils.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2006, 06:57:24 PM »

What does this right-turning cycle process have to do with the laws of thermodynamics? I don?t get it.


See it this way:
There is always a magneto-caloric effect happening when a magnet
attracts iron.
The iron magnetic domains are tilted into the direction
of the magnet and the electron spins are tiltled inside the iron
and can only move in one dimension less than before.

This leads to a lower energy state of the spins of the electrons
of the iron ball. This releases heat energy from the iron ball.

Now when the ball has moved on and the iron magnetic domains
and the electron spins again
restructure and shake loose and don?t point into the same direction,
this will need outside heat energy and therefore the ball cools
down and heat will flow from the surrounding environment onto the ball,
as the ball in this moment is colder than the air.

This is the magneto-caloric effect with is also used in
new modern fridges which use very special new
alloy materials which have a very high magneto-caloric effect.

So in my view the Finsrud machine is just a special heat energy machine,
which is just violating the second law, noting more.

Due to the low energy density, ( just to overcome some MilliWatts
frictional losses) you just don?t see the temperature differences.

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2006, 06:57:24 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2006, 07:06:07 PM »
I have video of that too and if I find time I may post it as well.

Maybe you can post these videos here as Google
takes so much time to validate the uploaded videos.
I really would like to see, how Finsrud starts the machine
and the other experiment with the 12 ring magnets and
the pendulum magnet.

Does he hold the pendulum magnet in his hand or
does he fix the thread holding it onto some kind of stand or
upper rod ?
Did the pendulum really never come to a stillstand when you watched this
experiment ?
How exactly was this setup ?
I think this could be much more important than hos whole machine
he has...

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2006, 07:58:34 PM »
Please see the following links showing continuous work of Finsrud?s perpetuum mobile:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253&hl=en
Omnibus, thks for posting the links.

Did he ever say what was the longest time the machine ever run continuously, and did it stop by it self or did he stop it?

Also, can you elaborate on the 4th pendulum-magnet arrangement inside the central column?

 

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2006, 09:25:50 PM »
Here is some info about magnetic cooling:
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040626/fob6.asp

These cycles also happen with a normal magnet
influencing magnetic attraction into an iron ball material.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Finsrud's Perpetuum Mobile
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2006, 02:39:59 AM »
Stefan, the validity of the explanation you give of the connection between heat and magnetism is not at all evident. You?re talking about some hitherto unknown dependencies whose nature is even more exotic than the violation of the principle of conservation of energy. I?d propose to apply Occam?s razor and try to explain the phenomenon in more acceptable simpler and viable terms.

There is no evidence that a connection between heat and magnetism exists and therefore such connection should not be invoked for explaining any experiment. Otherwise it will be a free for all and anything will go. One can start fantasizing all kind of things presenting them as plausible explanations. This is not the way science works.

Besides, there is no evidence that conventional machines using magnets have their magnets lose their magnetic induction when attracting other parts of the machines (unless extreme heating over the Curie point occurs or magnets undergo mechanical hits or other extraneous demagnetizing effects). 

 

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