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Author Topic: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?  (Read 7576 times)

Offline Blainiac

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Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« on: March 08, 2014, 07:20:12 AM »
Hello all,


I'm looking to start building.  I need to make an interesting shape to guide magnetic flux around, but I am going to have a diametrically magnetized ring magnet spinning inside part of the shape.  I want to reduce any magnetic damping by eddy currents, so I want to stay away from pure steel.  I have looked at ferrite and laminated stuff, but can't find any company or method to make the simple shape I want.  Does anyone have any experience with building custom shapes that have minimal losses for a magnet spinning near the metal?

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Offline energia9

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 09:40:55 AM »
Hello all,


I'm looking to start building.  I need to make an interesting shape to guide magnetic flux around, but I am going to have a diametrically magnetized ring magnet spinning inside part of the shape.  I want to reduce any magnetic damping by eddy currents, so I want to stay away from pure steel.  I have looked at ferrite and laminated stuff, but can't find any company or method to make the simple shape I want.  Does anyone have any experience with building custom shapes that have minimal losses for a magnet spinning near the metal?
Magnetite powder + Polyester resin= any shape , fair permeability compared to plain steel
or
Magnetite powder + nickel oxide powder + polyester resin = Best properties
ratio must be so that just enough polyester resin added to hold the powder mix together and enough to make it strong too
good luck
Nickel oxide powder:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Nickel-Oxide-Powder-500g-Free-P-P-/151237457743?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Supplies_ET&hash=item233674774f
or Cobalt nickel alloy powder
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CoNi-Cobalt-Nickel-Alloy-Spray-Arc-Welding-Powder-By-the-Lbs-/261323764921
and magnetite powder, basic need
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNETITE-500g-Magnetic-non-conductive-COIL-CORE-POWDER-Fe3O4-Ferric-Oxide-/261141008974?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3ccd37924e

polyester resin (remember not all resins are good for this, this one is great and cheapest per kg
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Polyester-Resin-1kg-Lloyds-Approved-GRP-repairs-/370429558755?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item563f527fe3

Offline Blainiac

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2014, 09:11:55 AM »
Thanks for the tips!  Is there any tutorials on how to mix them/ratios?  I'm needing a high permeability/low hysteresis weird shape.  Would you just make a mold, and pour the epoxy/powder mix in and let it harden?  I've never done anything like this before.  How would it compare to a bunch of steel plates cut to shape and pressed together?

Thanks so much for the help, it's very helpful.

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2014, 09:11:55 AM »
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Offline energia9

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2014, 10:09:19 AM »
Thanks for the tips!  Is there any tutorials on how to mix them/ratios?  I'm needing a high permeability/low hysteresis weird shape.  Would you just make a mold, and pour the epoxy/powder mix in and let it harden?  I've never done anything like this before.  How would it compare to a bunch of steel plates cut to shape and pressed together?

Thanks so much for the help, it's very helpful.

what kind of shape would you like to make?  plain pure iron if annealed with pure hydrogen has second greatest permeability with 200000 ,
metglas has 1000000
you might as well just tell to a local metalcraftsman to cut the required shapes for you from pure iron , since pure iron, (not carbon steel,permeability of only 100)
 99.95% iron has a permeability of 5000 untreated.
i dont know the actual permeability of magnetite powder, but i think its way lower than 5000.
but i made powder cores before and they are excellent,   you need to experiment with the ratios, and you make a mold and just pour it in the mold and wait for it to cure and take them out, you can make lots of identical cores if you make a mold which can be dissasembled with a couple of screws.  wear gloves and goggles!

cutting out pure iron sheets and pressing them together is far greatest by the waay..

Offline Blainiac

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2014, 04:22:17 PM »
Energia9,


Thank you so much for the wonderful advice.  I've attached the design, basically that, but about an inch thick (2.54 cm).  I would love to do the epoxy/powder stuff.  I think I might give it a try.  Basically a diametrically magnetized ring magnet would be in the circle part, and the flux would need to be able to travel to the bottom prongs when the magnet is in the right position.  The only reason I want as little eddies as I can get is because the only 'cog' on the magnets spinning would be the eddies themselves (magnetic damping), as it shouldn't cog otherwise using the design.  It's based on some older LaFonte Research ideas (the fanner principle and the cogless AC generator ideas they were working on), mixed together.


I was going to have about 8 of these in a row sharing a shaft that 8 magnets would go through, each offset by 45 degrees.  There would be two 'power strokes' per revolution for each of the 8 units, I might have a one way bearing for each of them to capture the powerstrokes.  All of this is just hot air until I can do some tests.  Anyway, the base parts themselves will be based on this advice, so I thank you very much!

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2014, 04:22:17 PM »
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Offline energia9

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2014, 05:49:20 PM »
you are welcome and looking at the diagram its a great research field. great idea.  if you do choose to make the powder techique then i would suggest you use only iron powder and no nickel in it since you want it for low alternations,    addition of nickel is good in high frequency cores.

another interresting thing to add from me,  when i experimented with iron powder i realized that i could align the particles of iron with a magnet then when the resin cured iit stayed like that.  just something to think about.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 02:42:16 AM »

you need to experiment with the ratios, and you make a mold and just pour it in the mold

I'm sorry but I would not agree!... if the mix ratio is at a state you can pour it in the mold then you have way too much resin and you won't have good permeability.

This topic will confirm it: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16635-fe3o4-cores-black-iron-oxide-magnetite-knowledge-base.html

What you want is minimum resin in your mix for most permeability.

I have many years of resin work experience and I can tell you it is not as easy to work with resins than most people make it sound.
Polyester resin (aka fiberglass resin) is inexpensive but your working time can be limited by room temperature and the size of the mix. It would be best to use minimum catalyst, not warm temperature and small batch size to extend your work time. If not, your mix can start to harden while you're still trying to get an even mix and before you have a chance to pack it in your mold.
You could end up with a chunk of wasted money.

There's also Epoxy resin to consider. Three time the cost but has advantages. One is, it hardens slower than polyester so you have more working time. Another bonus is does not easily crack like polyester, which can be useful if you need it to last and be strong.
There's a special Epoxy made by Mas Epoxies that is Low Viscosity compared to regular epoxy and polyester resins.
I would recommend that as the ideal resin, since Low Viscosity will be easier to mix in so you use less resin and since it's epoxy it gives you more than double the strength and flex that polyester resin have.
I would say Low Viscosity is enough to make it the ideal choice but since you get more strength and more work time I would say it's the only way to go.

Hope this helps and wish you all the best in your experiments.

Luc




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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 02:42:16 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 03:08:58 AM »
Surf board resin is very thin compared to most. It also has excellent wetting abillity. So it should be an easy mix. Like Luc says, if you want a core that is even close to what can be bought, the mix should end up like a thick putty, very dense with magnetic material. Not so thick that there is possibility of lots of air pockets.

Another idea that might work well is very thin CA (superglue) from a local hobby shop. This is on my list of things to try, as I have recovered some nice fine iron powder from a bead blaster cabinet at work using a magnet, and have the thin CA on hand.  Ill try to do a small sample to see if it works well or not. I need to do the test anyway before I waste the powder that I have. The density of the iron should prevent the CA from heating up too much and curdling/boiling as in some situations CA can do. The very thin ca has excellent wetting also. So just fill your mold with the magnetic material and apply the CA. It should seep into every nook and cranny. It just might be the new way to go.  About 10 bucks for 2oz at your local hobby shop. A bit more for ZAP brand.  Ebay also, just add shipping.

Mags

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 03:55:57 AM »
Hey Mags

one guy had a great idea at the EF topic I posted above. Use paraffin wax for experimental molds. When you heat it it's very thin and penetrates, once cold it should be had enough for experiments. When done and you want to make a change, just heat and re-mold.

Luc

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 03:55:57 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 04:07:44 AM »
Hey Mags

one guy had a great idea at the EF topic I posted above. Use paraffin wax for experimental molds. When you heat it it's very thin and penetrates, once cold it should be had enough for experiments. When done and you want to make a change, just heat and re-mold.

Luc

Hey Luc

It would be interesting to see if something like that holds together.  Sort of like pie crust dough, too much flour and it might not hold together well. But would be interesting to try.  ;)

Mags

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 04:36:54 AM »
I think it's worth a try... if it crumbles just re-heat and add a little more wax but I would try it in a small scale first to see the results.

Luc

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 04:36:54 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 05:04:02 AM »
I think it's worth a try... if it crumbles just re-heat and add a little more wax but I would try it in a small scale first to see the results.

Luc

I agree, always test before wasting too much material and time going to far before you know for sure it will work. ;) Thats why I will test the CA before making a core I intend to actually work with.

Mags

Offline Blainiac

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 05:25:22 AM »
Excellent posts guys. I'm going to use the information from above and order some supplies based on your experience, you guys have saved me a lot of money. :) it'll be interesting to see how well I can do at it. ;)


I'll keep you updated on any molding I do. It would be great if someone offered a service on here to just send a design and have a custom shape made. I will have fun testing though!

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 06:00:27 AM »
Excellent posts guys. I'm going to use the information from above and order some supplies based on your experience, you guys have saved me a lot of money. :) it'll be interesting to see how well I can do at it. ;)


I'll keep you updated on any molding I do. It would be great if someone offered a service on here to just send a design and have a custom shape made. I will have fun testing though!

No problem Blain

If using resins, you need to mix the 2 parts first, then add the magnetic material. Otherwise, the 2 parts mixed after infusing the resin with the magnetic powder, will be hard to thoroughly mix and may not cure in some areas.  If using the surf board resin, do a couple tests with the resin itself by adding various levels of hardener(MEKP) to see what your time frame is for curing. Then you will know your approximate working time, and additional time with material infused.  if it takes till tomorrow to cure, then thats what it takes.  Get some plastic mixing cups, stirring sticks and a box of cloves. And MEKP, that stuff is very bad for you. Do not get it on your hands or any body parts. Use the rubber gloves when handling the MEKP particularly. Keep its container in one of the plastic cups when not in use. It seeps from the cap threads where a little excess resides after use and will run down the bottle, onto the table, on your hands when handling, etc.

The thin CA superglue will cure pretty fast Im sure..  But seems to be a possibly quick alternative to resin.  Just got done doing a real carbon fiber covering on a front spoiler at work. Used the CA to hold the carbon fiber cloth in place, like around sharp corners and small radius bends, then apply the surf board resin, about 5 layers. One on top of another without sanding in between layers is fine as the surf resin has no wax like other resins do and have to sand between layers. I was mixing it hot, meaning it cured enough to sand in 30min.  Before sanding, if needed, wipe the surface with a cloth and acetone. It takes a thin sticky layer off the surface and sanding is like butta.  ;)   With the magnetic material, sanding will be much harder. If you have to sand anything, like sharp edges/corners afterwards. Usually when in the mold, those surfaces are not sticky, only surfaces exposed will be, like when I was brushing it on the spoiler, the top surface needs the acetone wipe, or the sand paper loads up with the sticky stuff.

lol went to far on that, but ya never know how far a project can go, and its nice to have info first. ;)

Mags

Offline Blainiac

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Re: Making a custom metal shape that will reduce eddy current?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2014, 06:18:15 AM »
Thanks for the details!  I appreciate it more than you know.  :)


You're right, it's definitely helpful to use the experience of others before diving into a project, lol.  I'm going to start ordering some supplies very soon and I'll be letting you know exactly how it goes!  :)  I think after I'm done, I'll try to work on some tutorials on different compositions/properties for others wanting to do this stuff too.  I appreciate the help a lot!

 

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