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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Miroslav13 on February 26, 2014, 08:21:32 AM

Title: Motor-Generator
Post by: Miroslav13 on February 26, 2014, 08:21:32 AM
An invention in which, due to the non-standard method of generation and unique design of the motor-generator, the electric motor and the generator modes are combined into one and are connected inseparably.

As a result, on applying the load, the interaction between the magnetic fields of the stator and the rotor creates a torque, which by its direction coincides with the torque generated by the external drive.
In other words, when the power consumption of the generator load is increased, the rotor of the motor-generator starts to accelerate and thus the power consumption of an external drive goes down.
YouTube-Video:
http://youtu.be/M92tbG2VOr4
http://youtu.be/bFXecIxEqR4

All details of the working principle can be found on our website at: generator-motor.info
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: madddann on March 04, 2014, 01:11:43 AM
Hello!

Well, good job for making the experiments, but when I look at the numbers I see:

normal setup: 8,28W input power, 0,05913W output power
special setup: 12W input power, 0,09776 output power

... (hope I read the multimeters right) so nothing too exciting and very inefficient and impractical.

By the way, what is the load - a rheostat? At what resistance is it set?

And why is the coil so far away from the magnet? Shouldn't the gap be as minimal as possible? Did you do a test with the coil closer to the magnet? If you did, what were the results?

Thx!

Dann


Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: crazycut06 on March 05, 2014, 01:04:58 AM
Hi Miroslav13,


Thanks for sharing your work, care to post details about your setup? So other's interested can replicate your findings.


Regards
Cc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: jbignes5 on March 05, 2014, 06:20:22 AM



 this is not a new principle. It was already patented in a 2 phase setup.


 here is the pertinant patent and a better way of doing what you are doing.


Tesla Patent #390,721 Dynamo-electric machine


 You can find the patent at TeslaUniverse.com


[size=78%]http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-390,721-dynamo-electric-machine (http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-390,721-dynamo-electric-machine)[/size]


 Tesla had other patents for toroid cores thet you only show half of the total core. In his design the field cores were on the outside and the generating coils(2) were on the rotor in the inside. It also has a prime mover(motor) that gets most of it's required current from the generqting inner coils(2). The field cores have 2 phases each half and hooked up as two dimetrically opposite coils. The field coils are driven by a magneto sedtup called the exciter which was comonly used back in the day to generate the field coils energy. I coined the phrase of a steady state motor/generator. Tesla reported that once started it was almost impossible to stop by pony brake. Well at least not till the wire failed<-normal matter limitation.


 What he doesn't show is the control mechanism which at the time was vacuum tubes. Both valves and diode versions.


 I have only been banging the gong on this one for 4-5 years on this forum about this device. It is the suspected powerplant of the Pierce Arrow experiment that was in Buffalo NY. The motor generator was built witha special type of soft steel called bessemer steel and produced by Westinghouse for Tesla. Tesla also hadd special transformers made with the same steel but unrelated to this design.

Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: crazycut06 on March 05, 2014, 02:27:59 PM


 this is not a new principle. It was already patented in a 2 phase setup.


 here is the pertinant patent and a better way of doing what you are doing.


Tesla Patent #390,721 Dynamo-electric machine


 You can find the patent at TeslaUniverse.com


[size=78%]http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-390,721-dynamo-electric-machine (http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-390,721-dynamo-electric-machine)[/size]


 Tesla had other patents for toroid cores thet you only show half of the total core. In his design the field cores were on the outside and the generating coils(2) were on the rotor in the inside. It also has a prime mover(motor) that gets most of it's required current from the generqting inner coils(2). The field cores have 2 phases each half and hooked up as two dimetrically opposite coils. The field coils are driven by a magneto sedtup called the exciter which was comonly used back in the day to generate the field coils energy. I coined the phrase of a steady state motor/generator. Tesla reported that once started it was almost impossible to stop by pony brake. Well at least not till the wire failed<-normal matter limitation.


 What he doesn't show is the control mechanism which at the time was vacuum tubes. Both valves and diode versions.


 I have only been banging the gong on this one for 4-5 years on this forum about this device. It is the suspected powerplant of the Pierce Arrow experiment that was in Buffalo NY. The motor generator was built witha special type of soft steel called bessemer steel and produced by Westinghouse for Tesla. Tesla also hadd special transformers made with the same steel but unrelated to this design.


Hi jbignes5,


Can you share some of your replication?


Cc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: jbignes5 on March 05, 2014, 04:14:20 PM
I am mid way through my replication attempt. The soft iron cores took me a bit to get fashioned and cost me 50 dollars. It is a 10 inch version. Two halves were made and the stock was round and 1 inch across.


 I have the neo's for the magneto and that is about it for now. My replication attempt is halted for personal health reasons but I am getting drawings made up of the whole unit.


 In the link above to the patent you can see 3 sections of the whole device.


 1 Magneto (for field coil generation)
 2 the Generation section. Field coils around the rotor(generating coils)
 3 Prime mover(motor) <-Has to be as it shows in the patent.


 All 3 of these sections are on the same shaft.


 The magneto is a two pole(magnets 160 deg. NS)
 The magneto pickup coils are on 4 poles (2 AC circuits are generated that way)
 These two circuits then get chopped at the peaks of their sinus waves and fed to the field coils over the field cores.


 The generator section is much like this guy shows but it is inverted. The field coils are on the outside and are in 1/4's of the round field core halves. 2 on each half core. The field coils should be that of very fine wire and hook up diametrically to each other for each circuit. So the circuits are 1 coil for each half of the field core. The field cores are then hooked up in two circuits to match the magneto output.


 The rotor section of the generator is made of heavier wire and in the process of transformation of the high voltage field into a heavy current and heavy magnetic field creates a sort of loop back to the field cores and generates further high voltage from the heavy magnetic field cutting the lines of the very fine wire used in the field cores. The heavy rotor coils are then ran to brushes on the shaft and then goto the output and prime mover sections. They share the same output and coincidently power the whole unit via the prime mover.


 In the generator section if you wire the coils correctly so that the field coils circulate in the opposite direction of the rotors spin then you get additional output at all speeds even very slow speeds.


 Of course you will need to control the Prime movers speed and power consumption and Tesla cam up with many ways to do that. Either in the form of Vacuum tubes or in the form of his variable magnetic motor controller. We must understand that Tesla in 1932 did the Testing of this system after is failure to get the wireless system funded and running. This was his last ditch effort in giving us Clean and affordable energy for all of humanity.


 I am betting this man knew what he was talking about and this design has done nothing but sit there in the public domain for many many years. Many have scoffed at the potential of this design. Well from the success of the OP experiment we can see Tesla WAS right! Although it is backwards in the above experiment it proves there is something to using the toroid for energy generation and if it was self generating and self propelled it would definitely close the loop.


 Another person from Quanta magnetics has a version of this out already but he chose to use pulse motors in his design. Well pulse motors are great but they lack any real power or torq and hence his output is lacking. If he had changed the pulse motor into a real motor then I am betting he would have gotten the same results as Tesla did.


 Everyone thinks they have come up with an original design but they are merely all taken from Tesla's work and rebranded as someone elses work. I assure you it is not original and if the OP has patents from his experiments they are only provisional and should be negated due to prior art of Tesla.


 The patent Tells all there is to be know about Tesla's work. The only thing left out was the method of control of each section which actually you or anyone could peruse Tesla's additional patents to find out those methods. All of the methods that can be used with this patent are at the same site that I pointed you to earlier: www.teslauniverse.com  Click on Tesla tab then highlight and click patents. It's not a complete list but give many of the more important patens and I assure you the control methods for this design are in that list. Including the variable magnetic control for the prime mover.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: crazycut06 on March 06, 2014, 02:21:37 PM
Improve your health first before continuing,  ;)  Only just now that i've learned that using a toroid for generating power was from tesla,  from the link you posted, so much to read! thanks!
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: jbignes5 on March 07, 2014, 11:33:23 PM
Improve your health first before continuing,  ;)  Only just now that i've learned that using a toroid for generating power was from tesla,  from the link you posted, so much to read! thanks!


 Yeah and don't take my writing style as a bash on anyone. He is partially right in the effect he is seeing. But if we can get this working we need someone to take the plunge and build this sucker. Plenty have done it already or nearly a lot. My own experiment is on hold for a bit.


 Others have been seeing strange effects from toroidal generators. Most stick it in the Anomaly bin and never look at it fully. Thane Hinz, I forget his last name, did the same but his discovery was high voltage transformation within a high current coil. This raised the output by looping through the induction portion of the fields and this raised the output.


 Lasersaber has done work on straight pieces of ferrite and has gotten excellent results in his most simplest circuit yet. Check him out.

Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: crazycut06 on March 08, 2014, 12:32:56 AM
I've been slowly (pain in the arzz)  ;D winding a small toroid, divided into 4 section, trying to replicate quanta magnetics T2 gen. My rotor has 4 magnets gradually increasing in size, to get the desired output voltage, i'm doing this slowly if time permits...hope to show if i succeeded... Thanks...


Regards
Cc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 22, 2014, 04:20:38 AM
Hi everyone,

I made a small replication to test the basic effect but fail to see any advantages.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ_Fo7GNfGs

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: cristopalba on March 22, 2014, 02:48:48 PM
Hi Luc.

 this replicate , you will succeed than if you much luck, and I wish you much luck.
I invite you to watch two of my attempts (though not very clear), which is exactly what proves Miroslav My disappointment is even greater, as, I have not succeeded to repeat the same success. Sorry for the inadequacies of language
WATCH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy7ysdgW-a4 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABtI8sbSNbE
best regards. Cristian alba
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Miroslav13 on March 22, 2014, 05:09:45 PM
I do not want a repetition of their mistakes, which are shown in experiments.
Before repeating, read carefully what is written in the documents on the site.
I ask everyone to pay attention to what is written in the claims:
The length of the stator’s magnetic core is equal to the length of stator’s winding so that the extreme points of the magnetic armature coincide with the extreme points of the stator winding, and the length of the winding does not exceed the length of the semicircle, and the central angle formed by the central lines of the different induction rotor poles is equal to the central angle that is formed by the extreme points of the winding. I have no problem, make you believe. I wish that all would understand how it works.
Sincerely Miroslav
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Jdo300 on March 23, 2014, 04:29:45 AM
Hello Miroslav13,

Thank you for the clarification about your setup. I just came across your website a few days ago and I am very encouraged by your willingness to share your process of discovery and results.

I wanted to ask you if the distance the rotor magnet is from the toroidal core has a major impact on the effect? Does the effect get even strong if the magnet is closer, or does it kill the effect?

This is the only major difference that I noticed with Gotoluc's setup compared to yours and cristopalba's. Also, have you noticed any dependency on the inductance of the coil itself?

Thanks!
Jason O
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 05:52:55 AM
Hi Jason,

since the video I've tried it with the magnet rotor further away (all positions) and it makes no difference. Watts out are watts in. No free lunch in any position!

I'm also having a hard time believing the inventor that the 1mm space my magnet wire didn't cover (only on outside) core ends will make such a huge difference ???

I don't know what's up with the claim or these inventors motive :-\

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 05:57:53 AM
Peswiki is sharing my replication

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Free_Energy_Blog:2014:03:22#Ukrainian_Generator-Motor_replicaion_and_test:_dud.3F
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 06:27:07 AM
Now here's something interesting

Yesterday I posted my replication at the Energetic Forum topic: http://www.energeticforum.com/energetic-science-ministries/16629-motor-generator.html
and today I can no longer post to any topics there! Says "the administrator may have disabled my account"  ???

After 8 years of free sharing this is what you get :P ... good work Arron ::) ... guess I wasn't profitable enough for your books and stuff or maybe it's a sign to me to forget about sharing?

Luc


Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Miroslav13 on March 23, 2014, 07:42:40 AM
Здравствуйте gotoluc.
Я могу только сказать, что я видел проведения экспериментов.
Чем меньше расстояние от магнита к катушке, тем точнее вы должны сделать все.
У меня было много неудачных экспериментов, которые связаны с не должным образом обернуты и дизайн геометрия.   Я также сомневаюсь, что такая мелочь может повлиять на результат, пока я не увидел обратное.
С уважением Мирослав.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 23, 2014, 12:37:09 PM
Hello,

I would like to point out that experiment presented in the Miroslav13 video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFXecIxEqR4
is not conducted correctly and has sadly lead to incorrect assumptions.

1) measuring AC output using these instruments is erroneous. One of correct ways is presented here:
http://www.picotech.com/applications/mains-power-analysis.html

2) Reference point for power measurements should be machine with no coil in place (physically).

3) It's good practice to provide full parameters for all components used (resistance, inductance of coils etc).

4) Fact of being granted a patent does not guarantee that the concept is viable because it takes very specific knowledge to sort this one out.

Seen "effect" is explained as follows:

The "regular" coil A tested seems to be winding made with thin wire and relatively small core. Core is made from conducting metal (laminations). Also it's a solenoid so magnetic loop is very "open". All this boils down to pretty poor performance with high ohmic and core loss and low inductance. Result is that even when shorted it behaves as resistive/dissipative load and naturally slows the generator down.

In case of the "special" coil B there are some differences:
Core is still made from conducting metal (laminations) but is much larger and forms better (more closed) magnetic loop. Also the wire is thicker. This results of relatively high inductance and low ohmic losses.

These differences have following consequences:
When coil A is "open" only effect it can have on rotor is due to core losses. Since core is small and coupling  between rotor and core is also small effect is non-existent. But when coil B is "open" then coupling between rotor and core is good and core losses kick in very heavily.

Coil A => 12V * 0.69A = 8.28W
Coil B => 12V * 1.01A = 12.12W
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            3.84W of core losses B vs A

Now when coil A is "shorted" then wattage goes UP (or RPM down) due to mainly RESISTIVE nature of the coil.

When coil B is "shorted" then wattage goes DOWN (or RPM up) due to mainly INDUCTIVE nature of the coil.

But why is it so? Well there's a little "secret" that has surely fooled hundreds of researchers (including me) :D

This is the "secret" (drums beating):

When the generator coil is good inductor and has high Q on working frequency it will cancel out magnetic field inside the core when shorted! Effectively cancelling out all the core losses because there's no more changing magnetic field in the core. Core has been "shielded". When the core is high-loss core, shielding it speeds up the generator.

This is all that there is to "speedup under load" that various have reported and all that there will ever be.

This effect (speedup) is promiment only when having high-loss cores from laminations etc. It will go away when having low-loss ferrite cores etc.

When having low-loss core there will be no net load to prime mover when coil is "open" and no net load when coil is "shorted" also.

Also I must sadly point out that there is no extra energy to be taken from this or any other setup involving linear components and no source of extra energy. Maybe time to stop chasing ghosts... Concept of "classical OU" and "perpetuum mobile" is spoon fed to us by the PTB, scammers and people who have not done their homework.

I'm sure user verpies would wrap this information in more "teachable" form and support it with some formulae.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 23, 2014, 01:50:26 PM
Some additional points about gotoluc's test here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ_Fo7GNfGs

- you are using much better core (iron powder I presume) with much lower loss
- you are using proper load that seems pretty well impedance-matched to generator
- your statement that cogging will cause load on prime mover is incorrect in this case,
when rpm is so high cogging will have no effect, all the loss is due to eddies in the core
(when there's no load on gen)

To see the "effect" try to short the coil. Possible there will be slight speed-up  and slight drop of wattage but no more than the original condition was (no core present). However this is pretty low-loss core so the outcome could also be no effect or very slight rise of used wattage. In that case you can simulate the "conducting core" case by winding one layer of extra winding, connecting that one to resistor - looking up the wattage used and wattage over resistor. Then shorting the main winding and observing rise of rpm and lowering of used wattage (and lowering the power dissipated over resistor!). Nature chooses path of least resistance.

To properly understand the situation take ratiometric Hall of suitable sensitivity and investiage magnetic field inside of the core under varios no load ... load conditions.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: crazycut06 on March 23, 2014, 03:02:20 PM
The cores ends should align exactly with the magnets n/s ends, just like leedskalnin's pmh!
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 06:12:49 PM
To see the "effect" try to short the coil. Possible there will be slight speed-up  and slight drop of wattage but no more than the original condition was (no core present).

I did short the coil after the video and it practically stops the motor.

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 23, 2014, 06:19:06 PM
I did short the coil after the video and it practically stops the motor.

In this case I totally overestimated how good your coil is.
Lets solve why is this. Please provide resistance and inductance
values.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
In this case I totally overestimated how good your coil is.
Lets solve why is this. Please provide resistance and inductance
values.

Measured with magnet rotor in position:

3256uH @ 60630Hz

2.45 Ohms RC Time 00.249s
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 06:50:41 PM
Здравствуйте gotoluc.
Я могу только сказать, что я видел проведения экспериментов.
Чем меньше расстояние от магнита к катушке, тем точнее вы должны сделать все.
У меня было много неудачных экспериментов, которые связаны с не должным образом обернуты и дизайн геометрия.   Я также сомневаюсь, что такая мелочь может повлиять на результат, пока я не увидел обратное.
С уважением Мирослав.

Здравствуйте Мирослав

Я спробував змінити відстань магнітом і котушкою. Без різниці.

Привіт

Люк


Hello Мирослав

I tried changing distance of magnet and coil.  Makes no difference.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gyulasun on March 23, 2014, 07:01:12 PM
Luc,


sorry to ask, did you mean it made "NO difference" ?  You wrote "on difference" which was also translated to Russian as "it made a difference"...

Gyula
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 07:05:37 PM
Luc,


sorry to ask, did you mean it made "NO difference" ?  You wrote "on difference" which was also translated to Russian as "it made a difference"...

Gyula

Yes, "NO difference"

Thanks for catching that!... I edited the reply

So you can you read Russian?

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 23, 2014, 07:46:21 PM
3256uH @ 60630Hz
2.45 Ohms RC Time 00.249s

Why this strange freq? Pretty high for measuring this kind of stuff...
Reading may be a bit off.

Anyway lets say its correct - then XL is about 5.5...6.7ohms at your working freq (about 300Hz?).
Not the worst coil in the world. Q about 2.5...3.
But the effects I was talking about take place at much higher Qs - phase angle should be 85'+
Quite problematic to achieve with this small half-toroid.

So in that sense it is not correct replication... unless I'm totally overlooking something.
For example in original video the magnet clearly has very small effect on half-toroid inductance
becuse toroid is huge and magnet is pretty small and far away.
In your case the inductance difference is probably large in 0' vs 90' positions.

I think setup would behave as in Miroslav13 video when there would be:
- large phase shift >85'
- neglible change in half-toroids inductance in 0' vs 90' positions
- lossy core



Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 23, 2014, 08:10:27 PM
Why this strange freq? Pretty high for measuring this kind of stuff...

This is my new LCR meter, it auto adjust Frequency from 1Hz to 500kHz

http://www.ebay.com/itm/390609554261?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gyulasun on March 23, 2014, 08:46:58 PM

So you can you read Russian?

Luc

I simply used google translate to reverse-translate your Russian text... and thought you also made a typo with the word "on" instead of writing "no" as in your English text.

Gyula
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 23, 2014, 09:21:25 PM
This is my new LCR meter, it auto adjust Frequency from 1Hz to 500kHz

Hm... this instrument should be operated with caution because when you are measuring very far off devices real operating point reading may be quite different.
But probably ok in this case.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Jdo300 on March 24, 2014, 11:16:11 PM
Здравствуйте gotoluc.
Я могу только сказать, что я видел проведения экспериментов.
Чем меньше расстояние от магнита к катушке, тем точнее вы должны сделать все.
У меня было много неудачных экспериментов, которые связаны с не должным образом обернуты и дизайн геометрия.   Я также сомневаюсь, что такая мелочь может повлиять на результат, пока я не увидел обратное.
С уважением Мирослав.

Hello Miroslav13,

I have a strong suspicion that the speedup effect may be more related to the reactance of the coil rather than the core shape alone. can you tell us what the inductance and resistance of the toroidal coil is from your second demo video? This would help a lot to understand what is happening. It could be that the phase shift between the voltage and current through the coil is closer to 90 degrees, which could provide enough of a phase lag to cause the reduction in drag that you are observing.

With this information, we can also compare the inductances and resistance of gotoluc and cristopalba's coils to see if there may be a pattern.

@ cristopalba,

Can you also post your inductance and resistance values? This could provide valuable information to understand what is happening here.

Thanks,
Jason O

- Jason O
 
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2014, 03:33:53 AM
Hi Jason,

the inventor does not write or speak English. So if you ask a question keep it to minimum words and use google translate to Ukrainian.

About phase shift. I'm quite familiar with how to make a coil that will create it because I also work with Thane. However,  I'm quite positive the Ukrainian inventors coil does not have enough wire turns to create the self capacitance that is needed to cause a shift and mostly at the low rpm they are using in their demos.
A low frequency (rpm) will need such a high self capacitance to cause a worth while phase shift that the coil size is impractical and also causes a low power output.

I'm presently working on fine tuning coils that has most self capacitance and inductance with minimal copper and resistance.
Core losses are also another big consideration.

Anyways, all this was not mentioned by the inventor and his coil does not at all look like a high capacitance coil. It actually looks like a low voltage high current coil if you ask me and is why I did not include the above in my replication.

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2014, 03:43:01 AM
Why this strange freq? Pretty high for measuring this kind of stuff...
Reading may be a bit off.

Anyway lets say its correct - then XL is about 5.5...6.7ohms at your working freq (about 300Hz?).
Not the worst coil in the world. Q about 2.5...3.
But the effects I was talking about take place at much higher Qs - phase angle should be 85'+
Quite problematic to achieve with this small half-toroid.

So in that sense it is not correct replication... unless I'm totally overlooking something.
For example in original video the magnet clearly has very small effect on half-toroid inductance
becuse toroid is huge and magnet is pretty small and far away.
In your case the inductance difference is probably large in 0' vs 90' positions.

I think setup would behave as in Miroslav13 video when there would be:
- large phase shift >85'
- neglible change in half-toroids inductance in 0' vs 90' positions
- lossy core

Hi yssuraxu_697,

thank you for all your posts and details.
I can see you're very knowledgeable and if you have recommendations please post them and I'll see if I can try them out.

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Jimboot on March 25, 2014, 04:47:48 AM
Hi Guys,
If you have a closer look at the numbers I think you will find it to be that the flux from the current draw is masking the iron core. I found the same here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbXw3RkAHA with that experiment but it was pointed out to me that it was probably just the core being masked.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2014, 05:56:27 AM
Hi Guys,
If you have a closer look at the numbers I think you will find it to be that the flux from the current draw is masking the iron core. I found the same here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbXw3RkAHA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbXw3RkAHA) with that experiment but it was pointed out to me that it was probably just the core being masked.

Hi Jimboot,

I don't know about masking cores. What I do know is, if you connected a 2 channel scope with ch1 across a current sensing resistor (csr) to your Rodin coil and ch2 across another csr to your bifilar coil, when under load (charging cap) you will see a phase shift between the two currents.  It's this phase shift that's assisting the magnet rotor caused by a delay in CEMF in the bifilar coil core and allows most of the magnet re-attraction time (Lenz effect) to be removed.
As you can see the effect reduces as the cap voltage climbs and you see the current draw (Rodin coil) start to increase and you can also hear the rpm slowly dropping.
To maintain best efficiency of this effect one would want large cap values and keeping them at low voltages (cap dumps)

How does this sound compared to core masking?

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Jimboot on March 25, 2014, 06:36:39 AM
I'm not sure as I really don't know enough. http://www.overunity.com/12590/thane-heins-rodin-pulse-motor/#.UzEU8a2Szoh that's where it was concluded I was dreaming. I did do some meter tests and when I measure the current draw coming from the gen coil to the battery it was only 80mA Still gave me a helluva belt though at 1kv though when I wasn't connected to the battery.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 25, 2014, 06:54:59 PM
Jimboot is correct. Coil current creates magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field created by moving magnet. Ideal case being 90' phase shift, 100% cancellation and zero net magnetic field in the core. Lenz's law it's called... Best way to investigate this effect is shorting the coil and sensing core field with ratiometric Hall. No free lunches there. Any external load will reduce phase shift, remove cancellation effect and require input from prime mover.
Sort of special case being coil with conductive core (that mimics shorted extra winding having series resistance).
Current in main winding will shield the core and remove energy loss created by "virtual winding".
But that's just replacing "useless loss" with "useful loss". Both will appear as load on prime mover.
So if the setup will not draw less than with coil/core physically not present in the system it's time for reality check...


Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 25, 2014, 06:59:41 PM
I can see you're very knowledgeable and if you have recommendations please post them and I'll see if I can try them out.
Well thanks... I've just done some mistakes and learned from them :)
I have question about your work with TH. Do these special high self-capacitance coils ever reduce input draw to level *below* coil/core not physically present?
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 25, 2014, 08:38:50 PM
Well thanks... I've just done some mistakes and learned from them :)
I have question about your work with TH. Do these special high self-capacitance coils ever reduce input draw to level *below* coil/core not physically present?

No, not at this time. This is what I'm trying to fine tune and what you believe not to be possible to do.

Luc
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: Jimboot on March 25, 2014, 08:49:19 PM
Well thanks... I've just done some mistakes and learned from them :)
I have question about your work with TH. Do these special high self-capacitance coils ever reduce input draw to level *below* coil/core not physically present?
Not in my experience. Not sure about TH work itself.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: jbignes5 on March 26, 2014, 12:24:25 AM
Speaking of capacitor dumps why not discharge the cap across a spark gap into a transformer then rectifier bridge back to the battery via another cap?


 Prolly best to dump the cap into a bifilar wind on the transformer or for quick test do it via a regular old transformer. Since you see a lowering of the current from the setup it should be possible to self run this thing. Should being an educated guess. This mixes several techniques into one neat package. You might want to have a load ready to run from the battery just in case it free runs out of control. <-again just a guess since I have not done this yet.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 26, 2014, 10:12:02 AM
No, not at this time. This is what I'm trying to fine tune and what you believe not to be possible to do.

It's not about believing, but about things called "scientific method" and "laws of logic".

As for earlier discussion theres of course some other theoretical possibilites how system would be still COP > 1.

Consider for example this theoretical experimental setup:

10W with no coil present (losses baseline)
15W with coil present
14W with loaded coil producing 5W (-1W from losses baseline, "acceleration under load", COP > 1)
16W with loaded coil producing 7W (again -1W from losses baseline, COP > 1)

however

14W with loaded coil producing 3W (+1W from losses baseline, "acceleration under load", COP < 1)
16W with loaded coil producing 5W (+1W from losses baseline, COP < 1)

In case of Ukranian gen it's pretty obvious which one it is...

As for TH tech I do not have enough info to decide which way is it. Probably you are under NDA etc and meaningful discussion cannot be conducted...
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: yssuraxu_697 on March 27, 2014, 12:36:37 PM
Seems that someone has already done good sum-up of the TH stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfRxsC9yumQ

http://garagehacker.com/index.php/topic/73-gestalts-replication-of-regenerative-accelerationstrange-lenz-effects/

The little details and explanations why is this so may be a bit off but the summary sums it up rather well. This is not surprising because should it actually work as advertised TH would have disappeared from the scene very quickly either counting dollars in new villa or by some other less nice scenario. Having working stuff does not involve endless hanging around in "FE community". Sad but true.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: jbignes5 on March 27, 2014, 04:20:35 PM



 This study is bogus.


 The reason being is that TH used a bifilar inside of the generating coils. This causes a looping effect enhancing the generating coils ability to generate even more.


 Taking away the overwound generating coil is no proof against TH claims. The bifilar coils by itself won't show you anything as is evident by the above mentioned video. It is the combination of the two coils that shows interesting looping results.
Title: Re: Motor-Generator
Post by: gotoluc on March 27, 2014, 04:48:09 PM
That study is not Thane's case. This guy must have a short (spark gap) in his coil as Thane's coils do not do this. Remove the coil only and leave the core and it's the same input power.
As I said before the only losses at this time are core losses but one way or the other all generator suffer from the same core loses.
Coil DC resistance use to be another cause of losses but that's now solved. Coils now have less then 0.5 Ohm and still accelerate under load.

I see Thane twice a week and I can tell you he's not living in a villa. He just stopped sharing because of the negativity.

Luc