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Author Topic: Motor-Generator  (Read 18960 times)

Offline Jdo300

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2014, 11:16:11 PM »
Здравствуйте gotoluc.
Я могу только сказать, что я видел проведения экспериментов.
Чем меньше расстояние от магнита к катушке, тем точнее вы должны сделать все.
У меня было много неудачных экспериментов, которые связаны с не должным образом обернуты и дизайн геометрия.   Я также сомневаюсь, что такая мелочь может повлиять на результат, пока я не увидел обратное.
С уважением Мирослав.

Hello Miroslav13,

I have a strong suspicion that the speedup effect may be more related to the reactance of the coil rather than the core shape alone. can you tell us what the inductance and resistance of the toroidal coil is from your second demo video? This would help a lot to understand what is happening. It could be that the phase shift between the voltage and current through the coil is closer to 90 degrees, which could provide enough of a phase lag to cause the reduction in drag that you are observing.

With this information, we can also compare the inductances and resistance of gotoluc and cristopalba's coils to see if there may be a pattern.

@ cristopalba,

Can you also post your inductance and resistance values? This could provide valuable information to understand what is happening here.

Thanks,
Jason O

- Jason O
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2014, 11:16:11 PM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2014, 03:33:53 AM »
Hi Jason,

the inventor does not write or speak English. So if you ask a question keep it to minimum words and use google translate to Ukrainian.

About phase shift. I'm quite familiar with how to make a coil that will create it because I also work with Thane. However,  I'm quite positive the Ukrainian inventors coil does not have enough wire turns to create the self capacitance that is needed to cause a shift and mostly at the low rpm they are using in their demos.
A low frequency (rpm) will need such a high self capacitance to cause a worth while phase shift that the coil size is impractical and also causes a low power output.

I'm presently working on fine tuning coils that has most self capacitance and inductance with minimal copper and resistance.
Core losses are also another big consideration.

Anyways, all this was not mentioned by the inventor and his coil does not at all look like a high capacitance coil. It actually looks like a low voltage high current coil if you ask me and is why I did not include the above in my replication.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 03:43:01 AM »
Why this strange freq? Pretty high for measuring this kind of stuff...
Reading may be a bit off.

Anyway lets say its correct - then XL is about 5.5...6.7ohms at your working freq (about 300Hz?).
Not the worst coil in the world. Q about 2.5...3.
But the effects I was talking about take place at much higher Qs - phase angle should be 85'+
Quite problematic to achieve with this small half-toroid.

So in that sense it is not correct replication... unless I'm totally overlooking something.
For example in original video the magnet clearly has very small effect on half-toroid inductance
becuse toroid is huge and magnet is pretty small and far away.
In your case the inductance difference is probably large in 0' vs 90' positions.

I think setup would behave as in Miroslav13 video when there would be:
- large phase shift >85'
- neglible change in half-toroids inductance in 0' vs 90' positions
- lossy core

Hi yssuraxu_697,

thank you for all your posts and details.
I can see you're very knowledgeable and if you have recommendations please post them and I'll see if I can try them out.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 03:43:01 AM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2014, 04:47:48 AM »
Hi Guys,
If you have a closer look at the numbers I think you will find it to be that the flux from the current draw is masking the iron core. I found the same here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbXw3RkAHA with that experiment but it was pointed out to me that it was probably just the core being masked.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2014, 05:56:27 AM »
Hi Guys,
If you have a closer look at the numbers I think you will find it to be that the flux from the current draw is masking the iron core. I found the same here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASbXw3RkAHA with that experiment but it was pointed out to me that it was probably just the core being masked.

Hi Jimboot,

I don't know about masking cores. What I do know is, if you connected a 2 channel scope with ch1 across a current sensing resistor (csr) to your Rodin coil and ch2 across another csr to your bifilar coil, when under load (charging cap) you will see a phase shift between the two currents.  It's this phase shift that's assisting the magnet rotor caused by a delay in CEMF in the bifilar coil core and allows most of the magnet re-attraction time (Lenz effect) to be removed.
As you can see the effect reduces as the cap voltage climbs and you see the current draw (Rodin coil) start to increase and you can also hear the rpm slowly dropping.
To maintain best efficiency of this effect one would want large cap values and keeping them at low voltages (cap dumps)

How does this sound compared to core masking?

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2014, 05:56:27 AM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2014, 06:36:39 AM »
I'm not sure as I really don't know enough. http://www.overunity.com/12590/thane-heins-rodin-pulse-motor/#.UzEU8a2Szoh that's where it was concluded I was dreaming. I did do some meter tests and when I measure the current draw coming from the gen coil to the battery it was only 80mA Still gave me a helluva belt though at 1kv though when I wasn't connected to the battery.

Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2014, 06:54:59 PM »
Jimboot is correct. Coil current creates magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field created by moving magnet. Ideal case being 90' phase shift, 100% cancellation and zero net magnetic field in the core. Lenz's law it's called... Best way to investigate this effect is shorting the coil and sensing core field with ratiometric Hall. No free lunches there. Any external load will reduce phase shift, remove cancellation effect and require input from prime mover.
Sort of special case being coil with conductive core (that mimics shorted extra winding having series resistance).
Current in main winding will shield the core and remove energy loss created by "virtual winding".
But that's just replacing "useless loss" with "useful loss". Both will appear as load on prime mover.
So if the setup will not draw less than with coil/core physically not present in the system it's time for reality check...



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2014, 06:54:59 PM »
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Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2014, 06:59:41 PM »
I can see you're very knowledgeable and if you have recommendations please post them and I'll see if I can try them out.
Well thanks... I've just done some mistakes and learned from them :)
I have question about your work with TH. Do these special high self-capacitance coils ever reduce input draw to level *below* coil/core not physically present?

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2014, 08:38:50 PM »
Well thanks... I've just done some mistakes and learned from them :)
I have question about your work with TH. Do these special high self-capacitance coils ever reduce input draw to level *below* coil/core not physically present?

No, not at this time. This is what I'm trying to fine tune and what you believe not to be possible to do.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2014, 08:38:50 PM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2014, 08:49:19 PM »
Well thanks... I've just done some mistakes and learned from them :)
I have question about your work with TH. Do these special high self-capacitance coils ever reduce input draw to level *below* coil/core not physically present?
Not in my experience. Not sure about TH work itself.

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2014, 12:24:25 AM »
Speaking of capacitor dumps why not discharge the cap across a spark gap into a transformer then rectifier bridge back to the battery via another cap?


 Prolly best to dump the cap into a bifilar wind on the transformer or for quick test do it via a regular old transformer. Since you see a lowering of the current from the setup it should be possible to self run this thing. Should being an educated guess. This mixes several techniques into one neat package. You might want to have a load ready to run from the battery just in case it free runs out of control. <-again just a guess since I have not done this yet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2014, 12:24:25 AM »
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Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2014, 10:12:02 AM »
No, not at this time. This is what I'm trying to fine tune and what you believe not to be possible to do.

It's not about believing, but about things called "scientific method" and "laws of logic".

As for earlier discussion theres of course some other theoretical possibilites how system would be still COP > 1.

Consider for example this theoretical experimental setup:

10W with no coil present (losses baseline)
15W with coil present
14W with loaded coil producing 5W (-1W from losses baseline, "acceleration under load", COP > 1)
16W with loaded coil producing 7W (again -1W from losses baseline, COP > 1)

however

14W with loaded coil producing 3W (+1W from losses baseline, "acceleration under load", COP < 1)
16W with loaded coil producing 5W (+1W from losses baseline, COP < 1)

In case of Ukranian gen it's pretty obvious which one it is...

As for TH tech I do not have enough info to decide which way is it. Probably you are under NDA etc and meaningful discussion cannot be conducted...

Offline yssuraxu_697

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2014, 12:36:37 PM »
Seems that someone has already done good sum-up of the TH stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfRxsC9yumQ

http://garagehacker.com/index.php/topic/73-gestalts-replication-of-regenerative-accelerationstrange-lenz-effects/

The little details and explanations why is this so may be a bit off but the summary sums it up rather well. This is not surprising because should it actually work as advertised TH would have disappeared from the scene very quickly either counting dollars in new villa or by some other less nice scenario. Having working stuff does not involve endless hanging around in "FE community". Sad but true.

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2014, 04:20:35 PM »



 This study is bogus.


 The reason being is that TH used a bifilar inside of the generating coils. This causes a looping effect enhancing the generating coils ability to generate even more.


 Taking away the overwound generating coil is no proof against TH claims. The bifilar coils by itself won't show you anything as is evident by the above mentioned video. It is the combination of the two coils that shows interesting looping results.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Motor-Generator
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2014, 04:48:09 PM »
That study is not Thane's case. This guy must have a short (spark gap) in his coil as Thane's coils do not do this. Remove the coil only and leave the core and it's the same input power.
As I said before the only losses at this time are core losses but one way or the other all generator suffer from the same core loses.
Coil DC resistance use to be another cause of losses but that's now solved. Coils now have less then 0.5 Ohm and still accelerate under load.

I see Thane twice a week and I can tell you he's not living in a villa. He just stopped sharing because of the negativity.

Luc

 

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