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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Floor on February 17, 2014, 07:53:56 PM

Title: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
This topic is an extension of two previous topics

1.  "Work from two magnets > 19 % output"   Notice there is not a 2 at the end of the topic name.
2.  "New Perm Mag Engine Design 1.5 : 1 ratio"

The topic is a presentation of a series of tests, exploring  the possibility that work
can be done by two magnets, in a repeating cycle, without an external energy source.
At least not a source that is know / understood.

The results of the tests are, I think quite astounding, except for perhaps, that, I have now been witness
to at least one other demonstration, that I believe demonstrates work can be cyclically done by magnets.

The topic is not a light one, the materials presented are some what extensive, but certainly not out of the range of grasp
by any one who can read and who studies the presentation.

               I hope you will enjoy the exploration
                                         cheers
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: deslomeslager on February 18, 2014, 11:27:51 PM
Thanks for sharing.

The tests are to extensive for me to reproduce, so I am just hoping you are right.

All I can add is this: if two magnets (NS-NS) are on (top of) each other, you will rather use a sideways force to get them apart, which seems to be easier as then to just take them apart as how they came together.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 20, 2014, 02:43:48 AM
Me too
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2014, 04:03:42 AM
Notes from floor


                  good hunting
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on March 24, 2014, 04:13:28 AM
It looks as if many readers may not have noticed the "TDanimation.PDF file.

                   ABOVE

It contains a quick view / animation of the "motion set", and makes the
flow of the interactions immediately clear

                                CHEERS
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Gabriele on March 25, 2014, 03:51:13 AM
Is there a modeling software can computate the operation?
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2014, 04:28:05 PM
Will the soft ware see this


                                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on April 05, 2014, 05:35:48 PM
@ all interested

Looking at the numbers of down loads of the various PDF files, it appears
to me as if half of the readers have not noticed the "TDanimation1.PDF file.

(my fault,  poor placement in the posts)

This file gives a quick view of the motions / interactions in the experiment, and
makes the interactions immediately clear.

So I am re-posting it below

                                             Floor

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on March 16, 2015, 12:29:32 AM
@ all readers

An idea for a magnet shape, that might improve / favorably bias the start of the rotational
magnets motion.

             see the jpg file below
                      cheers
                            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 09, 2016, 02:49:00 AM
This method of matching the output of a TD (twist drive) to the input of another TD came upon me several months ago.  But it was kind of unclear in my mind, (there are a lot of motions to sequence).

The problem being addressed is that the "peak force required during the input stroke is at the finish of the stroke, while the peak force of the output rotation is at the start of the rotation.

I got around to drawing a flow diagram for both a self looping and a cascading configuration.

The answer comes as a second TD unit which is based upon magnetically attracting interactions,... in combination with a first TD unit which is based upon magnetically repelling interactions.

Please see the two attached JPEG files

                                               Best wishes
                                                               floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 09, 2016, 03:01:06 AM
Files were oversize had to shrink them

2 Dual TD cascade.ai.jpg  and 2 Dual TD.ai.jpg
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 09, 2016, 03:05:59 AM
Sorry the jpegs are larger than I hoped for, but I'll let it stand this time.

                    Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: guest1289 on February 09, 2016, 04:07:37 AM
It could be designed as a circular motor,   which just has 1 stator-magnet,  attracting magnets on the wheel .
      So, the single stator-magnet,  could have an axle running through it,  so that it could turn like a propellor,  and then using the  momentum  of the wheel moving( from attraction ),  that momentum of the wheel could be used to turn the  single stator-magnet 90-degrees,  each time a magnet on the wheel spins past .
(  you can figure the rest out )
______

I have also been using the example of separating, and joining 2 magnets, to explain my idea for electrolysis of water  :
  http://overunity.com/8798/theoretical-efficiency-of-electrolysis/msg473379/#msg473379

______

Also, if youre bored, you can view my  magnet-motor-1, and magnet-motor-2 ( and one or two others ) from the following post :
http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg473357/#msg473357
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 09, 2016, 04:20:31 PM
@ guest 1289

Your pelton wheel application to magnetism is
 an interesting idea.

I've seen some experimenters try to shape magnetic
fields as method to gain energy.

There might be something analogous to a pelton wheel
that could increase the efficiency of a magnet motor. 
Its not my area of experimentation though. 

The devices I build are to make measurements.  I have not
tried to build a "motor". 

I'm working (for the present) under a premise that momentum
cannot be completely maintained in any process involving a permanent
magnet OU device.  This due to right angle interactions.

Energy doesn't come from nowhere.

It may have originated in the "vacuum / ether" ?
As someone one once coined it  "a firmament"

It may come from "the vacuum / ether" ?
As someone one else once coined it  "a permanent firmament"

                          Best wishes
                                 floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on February 17, 2016, 04:24:04 PM
Two pdf files that show the interactions in a (3 magne)t TD unit.
Useing 3 magnets is a simplification, as it combines 1 of the
return strokes with the input stroke.  This does not change
the over all input to output ratio.

1 unit's input is against replsion. the other unit's input is
against attraction. The same 19+ % greater output after the
return strokes should be present in the inout against attraction
unit, although I have not tested this.


                      Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on May 10, 2016, 05:43:57 AM
This topic is a presentation of a simple Over Unity device.
The device is not a motor, and does not self loop.
It is designed to test a principle.

A particular set of interactions between 2 magnets along with the measurements
of these interaction are described in detail.

The interactions demonstrate > 19% over unity.

In its original form,  the device is presented with,  input against and output by repulsion (magnetic).

This, the latest addition to the topic, is a PDF ANIMATION of a set of interactions where in,
the input and output of the device are against magnetic attractions.

It is open source.

Yes I'm claiming that this is over unity.

Pleae see the attached "TDanimation against attraction4.pdf" below

                                          floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on May 11, 2016, 02:42:23 AM
19% OU is small. I have several permanent magnet setups that give 100% OU but then
the problem is to reset so another cycle can be done and from all I have seen it takes
about 200% OU to get into a self running cycle. I did work with this idea of 2 magnets
side by side and twisting so I'll reconsider this now.  Thanks for showing the ideas.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on May 11, 2016, 03:18:52 PM
@ Norman6538

Are you you in contact with GammaRayBurst these days ?

The twist drive shows 19.131% O.U.  AFTER and INCLUDEING reset to the
starting position.  This is a measurement result... not a theoretical / calculation.
But does not include losses to.... friction and 2 motion reset springs.

Before reset the joules in to joules out ratio is (209 input to 301 out put).
This reduces to about 31% (if  I'm remembering correctly)

Full cycling requires only the attachment of 2 light springs to the unit
to cause the return / reset strokes.

Cascading of and / or full circle cycling between multiple units is possible.  I'd
do a video if this were proof... but its not.  Instead I'm challenging any one,
to prove this wrong. 

                  Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on May 15, 2016, 12:37:26 AM
@ Norman 6538

Input was 76.01% of output before return / reset strokes.
100 /301.8 = 0.3313,  0.3313 x 229.41= 76.01 %.

Output was 131.5 % of input before return / reset strokes.
100 / 229.41 = 0.4359, 0.4359 x 301.8 = 131.55 %.
...................................
Output minus input minus combined return / reset strokes = 43.89.
301.8 - 229.41 - 28.5 = 43.89 (total gain after return strokes).

Total gain was 19.131 % of  input, after return / reset strokes.
100 / 229.41 = 0.4359, 0.4359 x 43.89 = 19.13168 %

Output was 119.131 % greater than input, after return / reset strokes.

19.131 % is a conservative figure.

Several factors in the measurements were fudged toward more
conservative values during measurements.   This was to insure
that any (my own) personal bias in favor of an O.U. out come
might be neutralized.

As one example, there is a great deal of / constant friction present during
the rotational return stroke measurement.  This is due to a design flaw in
the measuring device, which causes levering upon the bearing by the shaft.
This levering, in turn causes the RO return stroke to require more input than
could realistically have been achieved if using a better bearing / shaft design.
As a result, the graph (grams x displacement for RO return), is probably
representative of about twice the work actually required for that motion.

                                       Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: LibreEnergia on May 15, 2016, 12:04:32 PM
So you're prepared to state that your device is OU to 5 signifcant digits but the apparatus is probably 'only half' as accurate as it could be..  Sounds like a recipe for 100% BS to me. I would say your measurements are not accurate enough to make any such claims. Equally likely is that the starting and ending conditions of each set of measurememts are not identical and thus do no represent the energy balance around a full cycle, as would be required to prove OU.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on May 15, 2016, 03:37:35 PM
@LibreEnergia


Quote
"So you're prepared to state that your device is OU to 5 significant digits but the apparatus is probably 'only half' as accurate as it could be.. "
.............
Use of more than 3 significant digits in the explanations is just my habit.  I have already stated this in the PDF files.

I'm prepared to state that the device and measurements show >19% more work out than in, in just the way I stated this in the files
presented.

The measureing device is probably only accurate to around 0.025.
.............
.............
Quote
"Sounds like a recipe for 100% BS to me. " 
.............
.............
No coment, except that Im willing to discuss it.  That is why I have posted the work here.
.............
Quote
"I would say your measurements are not accurate enough to make any such claims. "
.............
.............
I would say that they are accurate enough to make the claims.
.............
Quote
"Equally likely is that the starting and ending conditions of each set of measurements are not identical and thus do no represent the energy balance around a full cycle, as would be required to prove OU."
.............
.............
Likey yes, however they are "identical" except as detailed in the doucuments

I would very much like hear your views on this matter as well.  The starting and ending conditions are explained in great detail in the files.

I'm very much interested in well stated / accurate criticism.  This is a critical part of the process I am looking for.


                             I hope you will have / post  more observations / criticisms / advice
                             Thanks for input input
                                            Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on May 15, 2016, 04:35:52 PM
@LibreEnergia

Addendum

Quote "So you're prepared to state that your device is OU to 5 signifcant digits but the apparatus is probably 'only half' as accurate as it could be.."
.............
Again, no, I'm not claiming 5 significant digits.  43% of the reason I include 5 digits (Some times a lot more than 5) is to see if, who is responding knows their s__t .  7% is just to stimulate certain anal retentive types, who appear to be in desperate need of taking a S__t .  Then 50% is just to see big beautiful numbers come around to perfect solutions.

In reviewing your above comment, I think I now see more clearly the point you are making. 

The "RO shaft / bearing" sticky characteristic I was describing gives rise to a more conservative outcome in the ratios of work in to work out....

This is to say that the work in to work out ratios would have been more O.U. if the  shaft / bearing" sticky characteristic were reduced.  A larger "R.O return / reset stroke" value,  unfavorably decreases the output value in term of O.U..  The stick characteristic speaks in favor of my O.U. conclusion.

        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on July 05, 2016, 05:18:48 AM
I'm in the process of building a new measureing device.  The new unit is
capable of much more precise motions.  It  is built useing  linear and
rotary ball bearings throught.

The new unit is versital and modular so that it can be used to measureing
a wide variety of magnet interactions.
 
Please see the attached photos.

               floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2016, 06:10:40 AM
Hi Floor,

Very nice build of your test device. Thanks for sharing.

I noticed your topic back in May and glad to see you're continuing the tests and research.

Would it be possible for you to make a video of your test device in operation?  it would help answer so many question.

Thanks for your time

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on July 05, 2016, 07:11:57 AM
Hi Luc

A video of the measuring process would be cumbersome, as the measurement
process is its self...   a long and tedious undertaking.

I have roughly detailed the two magnets interactions during the measurements as an animation.
It is called  "TDanimation 1.PDF".  It is located on the first page of this topic.

I am very willing to answer any questions you have.  Also I would very much so appreciate your
asking those questions, as  the questions and answers may clarify the subject for many others ? 

                 Best wishes
                              floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2016, 04:13:19 PM
Thanks for the reply Floor

I had gone through your pdf documents which btw are professionally prepared. Thanks
I think I've got a good idea of what you're doing, just like to see one or two cycles (motion only) of your new test device.
How much time would it take for 2 cycles (without measurements) to occur? 

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on July 05, 2016, 05:48:13 PM
@ Luc

Thank you for having given the diligence to examine the PDF docs.

The new test unit build is not yet finished. My limited and some what
primative shop space slow the process (lots of hand work).

I am in the process of building the "RO" (rotating) module.

Next will be a large dial indicator for attaching to the SL (sliding) module.
This dial indicator will be a separate module. The separation will eliminate
certain inaccuracies caused by the stretching of the SL weight string, while it is
under the influence of the heavier weight increment objects.

I could at this time, do a video of the original unit, if that will suffice ? That device
is in need of only some minor maintenance.

I could breifly demonstrate the "motion only", by first installing the mid range and then
the heaviest of  the weight objects (first SL then RO while SL is near RO). 

Note... such a demonstration will potentially be misleading to viewers not
understanding the details of the measuring device / process.  As, both the input
and the output must occur along a "force curve" in order that work can be
cyclically done,

                    Again best wishes
                            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2016, 07:18:42 PM
Thanks again for your reply Floor.

I would think your first test device would be fine for visually seeing the operation and effect.

If you're okay with making a quick and simple video demo I'm sure many would appreciate it.
It may also get others to experiment with the concept as well.

Thanks for your time and sharing

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on July 05, 2016, 08:17:12 PM
@ Luc

Thanks for sugesting a video, Will do.

I could use a break from the new build any way.


              floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on July 08, 2016, 06:38:46 PM
@ Luc

I made a 5 min. vid... It came out Ok. But when I went to upload, it was very slow / upload failed, twice.

This gave me pause to reconsider the (value to the project) and the (value to  other researchers)
of posting  the video.

I'm interested at this point, in PR as in pear review, not PR as in public relations.

9,000 views....  585 downloads of the first doc.  What percentage of those 585  read and
understand the measurement made ??? ... I could only speculate.

VALID observations and criticisms and or clearly stated questions are more valuable to me
than large numbers of views or praise at this time, although the latter is also greatly appreciated.

Bottom line,, I'm not posting the video link at this time.

                      Thanks for your time and interest
                                 
                          best wishes
                                     floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2016, 10:54:06 PM
Thanks Floor for considering a video demo.

All the best in your experiments

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on July 14, 2016, 03:42:05 PM
Below are some photos of the rotating (RO) module as of
yesterday's progress with the build.  The biggest parts of
the build are now completed.

                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2016, 02:45:55 AM
During the 8,890 views of this topic's current incarnation, there have been no suggestions, recommendations and / or input on how one might best proceed.  No critical reviews given due to an examination of the materials . No examination of and reporting of errors found within the measurement process or the graphs or of the mathematical processes used to determine the experiments outcome.

There was ONE single suggestion that the input and the output conditions during the measurements MUST be different.  While this suggestion is a very good / likely answer to the problem of the impossible having been done. This was not I think, a conclusion reached through an examination of the materials.  It was perhaps rather the automatic response of a conditioned mind to the probability of,  easy pickens.  Had that input been knowledgeable and / or more critical and examining of the actual materials presented, that person might have pointed out my error in my method of determining the "work done" during the magnet interactions.  Oh well.

It appears to me that the input, output and two reset motions of the operation, will return a net gain of zero when the measurements are again made, but upon my new measuring device.  This however remains to be seen.  If this is the case It will help to determine both the precision and accuracy of the new device.  Or it it will show O.U.....(insert laughing emoticon here).

Below are some new totals / graphs of measurements made with the original "TD" unit
and some photos of the completed "new TD" measuring device.  The *.OUT files are
simple text files and can be opened with any text / word processor

              best wishes
                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on August 10, 2016, 06:09:52 AM
It's possible that this effect is from the ceramic magnets partial demagnetization during field compression.

When ceramic magnets face a neo, the pressure reaches a point then collapses causing demagnetizing of the ceramic magnet. But when two ceramic magnets face each other there is no demagnetizing but the field still partially collapses.

Once the magnets are separated the magnetic regions that were rotated return to their original state by the remaining unaffected area of the magnets.
This means the fields would collapse quickly over the short inline stroke but over the longer rotating output stroke the fields would return and provide an increase in force over the longer distance which would explain the difference you note.

Neo's will not exhibit this effect because no demagnetizing takes place with field compression.

That's my best effort to explain your results.




Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2016, 07:43:25 AM
@ Lumen

QUOTE FROM LUMEN
"But when two ceramic magnets face each other there is no demagnetizing but the field still partially collapses. "  END QUOTE

A partial and / or temporary reversal of some of the magnetic domains within the ceramic magnets and said domains returning to their original orientations in the absents of the other field ?

Also, I agree that neos will probably behave differently. I'll try them in the future.

Interesting possible explanation,

however, I want to make it perfectly clear that.....

The RO graph has a TOTAL area of 301.8.  This number represents the TOTAL area within that RO graph.  This does not correctly represent the work out by the rotating motion.

The SL graph has a TOTAL area 229.41.  This number represents the TOTAL area within that SL graph.  Neither does this correctly represent the work in by the sliding motion.

An area of "337 for RO" and  of "379 for SL" are the values of those parts of those graphs which actually represent the work  by rotation (337) and work of (379) by sliding. 

These two values have a completely different ratio to one another, than  the TOTAL areas do to one another.  In fact in the first set RO is greater than SL, while in the second set SL is the greater.   

Stating that the total area of each graph was representative of the work present was a mistake  on my part.

                          still learning
                          kind regards
                              Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on August 11, 2016, 01:42:53 AM
Sorry, I was only looking at the graph and not the new area numbers.
Even so, there is a difference and it is likely due to some domain tilting or reversal within the magnets.

Suppose it's easier to tilt the domains while rotating into position than a more random twisting you might get with a straight on compression.
In either case one might believe it to be an anomaly in the magnet material rather than the process but even the process itself might imply that compressing the field straight on would take more work than forcing the field in a direction 90 degrees to the face.

There might also be some relationship in the magnet shape or proportion where a change in the magnet shape might result in an even greater variation.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 12, 2016, 12:14:08 AM
@lumen
No apologies necessary , but rather, let me thank you  for the well reasoned and positive input.
Were on the same page.
                     Cheers
                    Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: conradelektro on August 12, 2016, 02:15:16 PM
@Floor

Your new machine is a very nice contraption and the experiment is very interesting. I find it interesting because it demonstrates a measuring problem:

- one needs two different mechanisms, one to push a magnet and a second to turn a magnet

- the two mechanisms have to be different (one pushes and the second turns)

- therefore the two mechanisms will have two different friction losses

- in addition the friction losses will not be the same over the operating range (more relative friction loss for small weights and less relative friction losses for heavier weights)

I can find no easy way to separate the friction losses from the measurement.

I come to the conclusion that the about 20% difference means that the overall friction loss in one mechanisms is about 20% less (ore more) than in the other mechanism.

So, you are measuring the difference in friction and not the difference in magnetic force. In  theory the magnet force should be the same (if you use similar magnets) and the friction in two different mechanism should be different. And your observation seems to show exactly that. And also, sliding seems to have more friction loss than turning, which is logical.

To make progress with your contraption one has to find a way to "separate" the friction losses from the magnetic force measurement. And unfortunately I have no idea how to do that.

I like to make a prediction: if one uses very big magnets and very heavy weights (several kilos) the difference in friction losses will be smaller (in case the machine is mechanically well built) because the friction losses will be smaller in comparison to the magnet force involved.

As in all OU machines, measurement is the challenge.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on August 12, 2016, 03:55:34 PM
@Floor

Your new machine is a very nice contraption and the experiment is very interesting. I find it interesting because it demonstrates a measuring problem:

- one needs two different mechanisms, one to push a magnet and a second to turn a magnet

- the two mechanisms have to be different (one pushes and the second turns)

- therefore the two mechanisms will have two different friction losses

- in addition the friction losses will not be the same over the operating range (more relative friction loss for small weights and less relative friction losses for heavier weights)

I can find no easy way to separate the friction losses from the measurement.

I come to the conclusion that the about 20% difference means that the overall friction loss in one mechanisms is about 20% less (ore more) than in the other mechanism.

So, you are measuring the difference in friction and not the difference in magnetic force. In  theory the magnet force should be the same (if you use similar magnets) and the friction in two different mechanism should be different. And your observation seems to show exactly that. And also, sliding seems to have more friction loss than turning, which is logical.

To make progress with your contraption one has to find a way to "separate" the friction losses from the magnetic force measurement. And unfortunately I have no idea how to do that.

I like to make a prediction: if one uses very big magnets and very heavy weights (several kilos) the difference in friction losses will be smaller (in case the machine is mechanically well built) because the friction losses will be smaller in comparison to the magnet force involved.

As in all OU machines, measurement is the challenge.

Greetings, Conrad

@Conrad

The device was vibrated to remove as much friction as possible at each point so I believe it's worth further investigation.
I have done many magnetic force interaction tests and always found the total results to be very close meaning there is no OU.

I use CNC machines to hold and move the magnets and the results are measured with a digital scale.
Because the magnet under test is attached to a digital scale and never actually moves any friction is reduced to near zero.

At some point I will be testing the interaction of Floor's claim but even a negative on my testing does not invalidate the claim because the actual reason for the difference may not have been tested in my test.  It may not be as simple as the path the magnets travel.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: conradelektro on August 12, 2016, 08:55:41 PM
I use CNC machines to hold and move the magnets and the results are measured with a digital scale.
Because the magnet under test is attached to a digital scale and never actually moves any friction is reduced to near zero.

Clever idea to fix the magnet to a digital scale! I also like the very precise positioning with a CNC machine.

At some point I will be testing the interaction of Floor's claim but even a negative on my testing does not invalidate the claim because the actual reason for the difference may not have been tested in my test.  It may not be as simple as the path the magnets travel.

It is a well known fact, that negative proof is not possible (because one could have overlooked some essential parameter). So lets hope you find a difference in some two paths which you are able to test.

But I think that what we know about electromagnetism rules that out.

1) There could be a difference going down to the level of particles (sub-atomic size) or in the very large (cosmological scale). Both areas are not easy to access.

2) It could also be, that moving magnets at a very high frequency (beyond Terra-Hertz) causes some strange relativistic effect (moving two magnets near the speed of light relative to each other). But this is almost impossible to do.

3) And finally, cooling a magnet down to absolute zero ( -272 C°) could make it behave strangely. Which would need a very good refrigerator.

All areas not thoroughly examined yet (since the 19th century) are not open to the home experimenter.

A pet science thing of mine is "mechanical resonance" (not "electromagnetic resonance in an oscillator"). In the 19th century they did a lot of things with crystals and resonance (but it was mostly esoterica).

Most musical instruments exhibit nice mechanical resonance effects. If you tune a musical instrument to a resonance frequency of a wine glass, you can make the wine glass sing along (very muted at a certain note). Tuning the wine glass by partly filling it with water is not very effective, because the water damps the vibration of the glass.

Mechanical resonance will probably not show OU but could be an effective way to heat something or to move something (conveyors or pumps).

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on August 13, 2016, 01:44:58 AM
Just to show how much the shape of the magnet can affect it's character I uploaded this short video.

https://youtu.be/ZoDg6hVHttU

With the attraction shown, one might think that some of the work may not be equal in all cases.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Dog-One on August 13, 2016, 08:39:56 AM
Good little demonstration of how the "fields" must wrap around in order for like poles to stick together at their so-called Bloch Wall.

Quite revealing.  Thanks for posting that clip.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 13, 2016, 09:41:30 PM
@ConradElectro

QUOTE FROM Conradelektro
"Your new machine is a very nice contraption and the
experiment is very interesting. I find it interesting because
it demonstrates a measuring problem: " END QUOTE

Agreement, yes an interesting problem.

The original "TD" measuring device was too crude to
facilitated any meaningful friction measurements.

Measurements made for the SL will be made to approach equilibrium from
both directions of the sliding motion to test if equilibrium of the forces has truly been
found..  Details of this process will be given with those measurements.

The new unit will be vibrated to facilitate the rapid arriving at the
equilibrium of forces, as was the original TD unit.  I  believe that
adding vibration is a valid method of eliminating the friction under
the measurement conditions. 

Realistic simulation of both, the RO friction-conditions and friction
might be be arrived at by a complicated process.   With the magnets removed
and incremental  weights / counterweights installed (each weight = 1/2 total
weight for that increment). Then a third weight on the same pulley to measure the
friction. Or something like that...  This could establish a basis for validating or
invalidating  the vibrating method.  Don't know though ?

Measurements of the state of the forces at the beginning of each set, and  measurements
of the friction  (magnets not in place) and others will be made as the process unfolds.

Let me contemplate your other suggestions / ideas until later.

                As usual thank you for your observations.

                                  best wishes
                                    Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 13, 2016, 10:13:34 PM
@Lumen

Yes I see it (video).  Reshaping in the external field.
This is in align with and as a first part of the exploration.

On another side of the exploration or additionally...
Does it require more energy to reorient or partially reorient
the domains (internal)  then energy that could be gained from
that reorientation, under all conditions.

Some parameters / details in photo form, below.

                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 13, 2016, 11:24:20 PM
correction

In the top paragraph in the "NewParam3.png" photo,
It should read  Ro weight string is in place,  rather than
"SL string is in place"
 

                         floor  floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 14, 2016, 07:39:23 PM
NewTDparameters 2.

The SL rails are inclined upwardly toward the RO magnet, by some
where between 0.5 and 0.75 degrees during the following  practice
run, device calibration and testing (NewParam6.PNG photo).  This
as to reliably insure that the SL rails were not inclined in the other direction.

70 mm of string (0.5grams) hang below, both the RO and the SL pulleys,
when their respective scales read at 45 degrees (NewParam5.PNG photo).

The weight of the figure of 8 knots (0.016 grams), which keeps the RO
and SL strings from slipping through the 1/16 inch diameter holes in the
pulleys are negated. 

The SL scale counter weight, weighs 4.425 grams. The weight of the fine
thread by which it is suspended in negated (NewParam5.PNG photo).

With the SL magnet replaced with a non magnetic dummy weight
(NewParam7.PNG photo), it requires 8.425 grams on the SL weight string
to cause the SL sledge to reliably move toward the RO magnet (with vibration).

The 8.425 grams (SL weight ) minus the 4.425 grams (SL scale counter weight)
is equal to 4 grams.  Adding the weight of the SL weight string (0.5grams)
brings the total weight required to cause SL's sliding (with vibration) toward
RO, to 4.5 grams.

It required 4.425grams less weight, upon the SL string in the absence of
the SL scale counter weight.

In the absence of the 8.425 grams of weight upon the SL weight string, the
SL sledge moves away from the RO magnet (with vibration).

It requires less than 4.5 grams to motivate the SL sledge when the
sledge is level.

Other test are to follow.

                        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 14, 2016, 08:10:32 PM
@ConradElectro

(Quote from ConradElectro)
"I like to make a prediction: if one uses very big magnets and very heavy weights (several kilos) the difference in friction losses will be smaller (in case the machine is mechanically well built) because the friction losses will be smaller in comparison to the magnet force involved."
(END QUTE)

Agreement. 

The friction losses in the greater force interactions are a lesser percentage as compared to friction losses during the lesser force interactions, when using these "weak" magnets, but while useing this "mechanically more well built machine".
but also while using the current, "mechanically more well built machine".

               regards
                    floor

@ Lumen


CNC machines, a digital scale and friction is reduced to near zero.

     very very cool


               regards
                    floor

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 17, 2016, 07:44:34 PM
Hey big dogs and so on.

Below is a video link to a particular set of interactions  /  measurements, done on the new
TD unit. 

                http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4p1ome_magnet-force-test_tech

That video is PASS WORD PROTECTED at this time. 

You can PM me for the pass word. 

I ask that you do not "share" the pass word. I will probably unlock the video
in a few days any way. 

Please just ask me and, I will most likely give you the pass word.

                   Cheers
                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on August 18, 2016, 01:24:43 AM
@Floor
So to get this right,
You are showing that the weight on the "Linear Slide" is lighter and travels less than the weight it's lifting on the Rotary axis which travels further and is heavier?

It's an interesting setup for sure.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 18, 2016, 03:02:13 AM
@lumen

Yes, the sliding SLedge displacement  is from 12 deg. to 34 deg on the degree
scale, as gravity pulls  the SL weight down.  The SL weight is 158 grams.

The displacement (mm) of the SL weight,  is indicated by the degrees of
rotation on the SL dial.

This is  a common type of device, and used to indicate a displacement with a needle
upon dial face.

The ratio of the circumference of the SL scale pulley, to the circumference traveled
in the larger arc of the SL scale needle tip, is a fixed ratio.  It is simply the ratio of
the two circumferences to one another.

This makes very small magnet movements visible as larger movements by the needle.
It magnify s the motion and makes finer increments of readings possible.

The ROtational scale does the same thing in terms of the RO weight, and with an
identical ratio of pulley circumference to needle tip arc circumference.

It's just that in the case of the SL side if the actions, a  linear and horizontal displacement
(of the SLedge), as well as the fall distance of the SL weight is indicated by the needle.


.....................................................
What you see in the video is SL weight (158 grams) falls about 1/2 the distance that the
RO weight (168 grams) is lifted. 

43 degrees on the RO scale, and 22 degrees on the SL scale.
The RO weight travels only 1/43 less than twice the distance of SLand yet
the RO weight is 10 grams heavier than the SL weight.
........................................................


But, by definition...... no net work is done.....

unless the two magnets can be returned to their original or starting positions ....
with out doing the same amount of work as is done by the difference in work
between these 2 other actions, ie.  158 grams lifted by 22 degrees (in) : 168 grams lifted
by 43 degrees (out).

As seemingly amazing as the actions are, the video is just an interesting and dramatic demo.

But then those actions are not... precisely... the interactions that need measuring.

                             floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2016, 07:57:48 AM
A little math,

I have converted the rotation degrees into the mm of weight
displacement.  see the PNG files below

                  floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on August 19, 2016, 03:47:10 PM
Thanks Floor for your work and measurement posts. You like me have an OU device
which I believe proves that not all energy/work done is conserved. However many
don't believe the measurements but insist on a self running device. I have a magnet
setup that is over 100% but my estimate is that it takes about 200% to get self
running.  So no one has any interest in my devices because with heads in the sand they think - no OU unless it self runs. And I say Faraday and others did not start out
with a 3 phase AC motor. They got there step by step and so can we.

Keep at it Floor.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2016, 07:24:33 PM
Thanks Norman
 You too
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 19, 2016, 07:33:10 PM
I heard a lecturer once say "Our goals become our limitations"

I am not in some respects very qualified for this undertaking. This
project is in fact, the first time in my life that I have ever under taken
to measure and graph force interactions.  Typos abound during
my late night sessions, and when I am burning the candle at both ends.
Note..Although cut and paste writing methods are very time efficient,
they also give rise to their own unique variety of typo. ah ha !

The process I am engaged in, has two main parts
..........................................................
A first part is to measure sets of force interactions between the
RO magnet and the SL magnet to determine the optimum work-out
to work-in ratios.  These measurements must include the work done,
to return both RO and SL to their starting positions.   
Yes, I'm attempting O.U..

There are many many fascinating possibilities of variations in
magnet shapes to explore.  One could, I think, spend years
exploring this aspect alone.

At little later point in this letter, I will give some details, of one
of the magnet shapes, I would like to examine in the near future.
...........................................
A second part  of the process, is to measure and map a force helix
between the RO and SL magnets.

Quote from Spok (The wrath of Kahn)
 "He's intelligent but lacks experience. Analysis shows, his thinking
 is two dimensional."
............................................
SHAPE
1. A slight "propeller edge" on (the facing each other) edges, of the RO and SL magnets.
There exists a drawing of this, in previous postings.

2. A longer (along it's long axis) SL magnet then the RO magnet (along it's long axis).
               or
3. A longer (along it's long axis) RO magnet then the SL magnet (along it's long axis).

In any case (1, 2 or 3), the magnets are still centered to one another during force measurements.
...............................................
DIRECTION OF APPROACH

I have a working  hypothesis (for the time being).  understanding NEAR right angle interactions
in the electric and  magnetic fields are the key to O.U..
...............................................
THE NEXT VIDEO.

Why NEAR right angle.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on August 19, 2016, 09:55:11 PM
Consider this:
I have a 1 pound weight hanging on a spring.
I then place a lever under this weight with a fulcrum in the center of the lever.
I place another 1 pound weight on the far end of the lever and raise the weight on the spring.

Shifting the fulcrum, I find I can raise the weight on spring two times higher than the one on the lever moves.
With further testing I find the optimal position of the fulcrum and find I can raise the weight over 3 times higher at it's best point.

What I'm actually testing are simply the dynamics of the spring and there is no OU.

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 20, 2016, 08:06:09 AM
@lumen

Yes agreement

You are simply adding the energy (the weight lifted) which you stored
in the spring, when the weight was first lowered onto the spring. 

There is no net gain.  The work you did by lifting the weight (energy stored),
and then the work done by gravity to compress the spring (energy transferred)
are equal (before friction loss).  Applying leverage to the actions does not change
 this fact.

And similarly, THERE IS NO NET GAIN in either energy, or the work done
in the actions that occur in the video.

See my post, (which I think you missed?).  Just read the last few preceding
posts (yours and mine).

All is well, I believe you and I, are both interpreting the events in the video correctly.

                                   floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 20, 2016, 08:17:42 AM
@ lumen

QUOTE FROM FLOOR

" But, by definition...... no net work is done.....

unless the two magnets can be returned to their original or starting positions ....
with out doing the same amount of work as is done by the difference in work
between these 2 other actions, ie.  158 grams lifted by 22 degrees (in) : 168 grams lifted
by 43 degrees (out).

As seemingly amazing as the actions are, the video is just an interesting and dramatic demo.

But then those actions are not... precisely... the interactions that need measuring"
                                                                                                                                 END OF QUOTE

I think you and I, have both correctly understanding the interactions in the video.

That was my goal up to this point.  I'm glad to see that we are both still on the same page.

Awsome!

                                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 20, 2016, 08:38:31 AM
The presentation is not yet complete.

At this point the presentation has not demonstrated OU.
              next is
It's all about nipping a little bit off both ends of the
rotational (out put) movement and how this effects
the return / reset strokes

It allows the resets to the starting position to cost
very little work or energy input.

                      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 20, 2016, 09:42:26 AM
Both videos are open to the public now.

The link to the first video is

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4p1ome_magnet-force-test_tech

The link to the second video is

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4phd00_newtd2_tech

                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 26, 2016, 05:12:54 PM
@ lumen

Basically the videos were done just to give people an opportunity to
look under the hood of the TD and kick the tires a little bit.

I hope the videos were useful / gave you a better feel for
the TD interactions, and what changes give rise to what changes. 

I did some drawings / analysis using your spring analogy to the
TD magnet interactions.

Also some explanations of close up ceramic magnet interactions.

see the PNG files below.

?? Have you data on neo magnets in close proximity and domain flipping ??

                floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 26, 2016, 05:22:55 PM
The files below are some explanation of domain flipping in magnets,
and at the beginning of the twist drive's slideing(SL) return / reset stroke.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on August 26, 2016, 08:25:49 PM
Thanks floor for sharing your videos and details.


I'm still following your topic with interest even though I have much on my plate.


Kind regards


Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 28, 2016, 02:02:36 AM
@gotoluc

           Thanks

     Understood and appreciated.

                            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 28, 2016, 02:07:24 AM
   More looking around under the TD hood

Please see the next 3 PNG and 1 JPG file.
 
                       floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 28, 2016, 02:12:14 AM
------------ WOW------------
             
                   thats a big picture

                          floor ;)
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on August 30, 2016, 01:27:53 AM
I didn't reaaly want to get into a mechanical leverage discussion in this topic,

But lumen brought brought a lever into the discussion.

I then picked it up and proceeded to hit my self in the head with it.
Several times in fact, untill my sences returned.

Below are 5 PNG pics. of springs and leverage redone.

            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: AlienGrey on August 31, 2016, 02:21:19 PM
I didn't reaaly want to get into a mechanical leverage discussion in this topic,

You want work from 2 magnets watch this.         

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRHD6lo-aKc

 PS don't wast too much time on this joke !

enjoy  AG
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 05, 2016, 12:52:22 AM
@AlienGrey

Yes, you surely have wasted peoples time in posting that video here.

                        enjoy floor



Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 08, 2016, 04:40:09 PM
Ive been waiting for the right time to publish these last 2 graphs.

These are for real, and very close approximations.
Any body can replicate and verify them for their self.

                   hoorah
                          floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 08, 2016, 05:37:19 PM
Files would not upload

                floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 08, 2016, 05:43:33 PM
One more pic.

I hope none of this is an interfearance with the pattent / topic discussed
in  .....     Miller Colson Magnetic Motor coming to market ?

                   floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 09, 2016, 01:50:43 AM
One more pic.

I hope none of this is an interfearance with the pattent / topic discussed
in  .....     Miller Colson Magnetic Motor coming to market ?

                   floor

It does appear to have some similarities.
I hope they both work but I feel there must be something missed somewhere.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 09, 2016, 03:04:15 AM
@umen

Yes there are definitely similarities.

I don't know what to say, except that I have done
my measurement sets repeatedly now, and with increasing
care, and in smaller increments.  The results are still hard for
me to believe. even though seeing is believing.

I don't think the guys in the video are idiots.
I think they know exactly what they have.

My design is the easier of the two to replicate !

I know what I been measuring and it is no trick, illusion
nor error.  I no longer have any doubts about it.  It's O.U..

Also, the device I have built is more complex than it has to be. 
This was in order that I can do a variety of tests.
Others could replicate in a similar but simpler test device design.

I may have verification by others using my device, in a couple of weeks
any way.  I have been in discussion with two separate individuals (both highly qualified)
who may use my device to  run the measurements for their selves.

This remains to be seen however, as no dates have been set.

           best wishes
                    floor
                                     
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 09, 2016, 07:59:02 AM
The files below are some explanation of domain flipping in magnets,
and at the beginning of the twist drive's slideing(SL) return / reset stroke.
What torque readings do you have between the two crossing magnets?


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 12, 2016, 05:49:42 AM
@Vidar

Quote from Vidar
"What torque readings do you have between the two crossing magnets?"  End quote

Sorry to have taken so long to reply, been very busy, and will
still be for another day or so.

The only measurements for torque on the ROtating magnet are those
in the RO graph.  Torque goes from a min. to a max  "and is different /"changes with each increment
of rotation and / or increment of change in distance by the SLideing magnet" .

The only torque quage I currently have access to is badly out of calibrration.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 12, 2016, 02:06:36 PM
@Vidar

Quote from Vidar
"What torque readings do you have between the two crossing magnets?"  End quote

Sorry to have taken so long to reply, been very busy, and will
still be for another day or so.

The only measurements for torque on the ROtating magnet are those
in the RO graph.  Torque goes from a min. to a max  "and is different /"changes with each increment
of rotation and / or increment of change in distance by the SLideing magnet" .

The only torque quage I currently have access to is badly out of calibrration.
OK. I was just worried about any possible counter torque that will prevent things to work correctly.
I hope you make this device work, and whish you good luck :-)
Keep us posted.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 15, 2016, 03:40:59 AM

Below are an excerpt and a quote from Millers  "magnetic drive apparatus" patent. US 8,487,484 B1

"An apparently unrecognized requirement is the need to periodically relax the the drive components in order to facilitate continuous reciprocating movement."
..........................................................................
NEXT

I now have my first independent  confirmation of work in... to... work out ratios in the  new TD unit.

That person spent about 12 hours total over a three day period.  He used his own  weights, scales, measuring
devices.  He did complete sets of measurements (of RO and SL interactions),

Checked several tolerances within the TD device, using a wiggler and or dial indicator.

RO shaft end play was hand forced to 0.010 inch.

all pulleys within the assembly (for eccentricity) were found to be no more than to 0.010 eccentric

Photo graphed all of his measurements

Found NO discrepancies between his own measurements of input (SL) to output (RO) and my last posted measurements.

He is the first person to notice / comment that the TD is UNDER UNITY as opposed to either AT UNITY or OVER UNITY (at least as presented in the back wards manner In which I have proceeded).  Ive been waiting for some one to make that observation.

          floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 15, 2016, 08:04:51 PM
@floor

I was doing some testing in a 3D simulator for any gain from the twisting or sliding together of thin magnets and it appears that it is possible to achieve a gain.
Like in the clip I posted where two long thin magnets can pull together repelling faces due to the attraction to the back side faces being stronger than the area of repelling faces.

It appears the back side face connection also assists in the rotation to the full repelling face alignment which allows for less work to rotate the magnets into alignment than what is required to directly force together the repelling faces. Very much the same as you are testing or maybe the concept of the Miller machine.



Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 15, 2016, 09:14:07 PM
@ lumen

I think that The "back side face connection" and / or the
domain re orientations are factors... but it appears to me that
primarily, the force interactions in rotating as opposed to sliding
magnet approaches are fundamentally different from those found
in the case of any known mechanical linkage.

In other words, I'm saying that while convention would lead us toward
conventional mechanics in search of explanation, the primary explanation
for the O.U. simply can not be found there.

Back side interactions are not dominant in the "twist drive" interactions...
the magnets are polarized on the broad sides and it is a deep reach to
what would be considered their back sides.

 But were still  on the same page.

                 thanks
                         floor

As per always these designs are given into the public domain.

PS please find the attached PNG file
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 15, 2016, 09:24:03 PM
File would not up load.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 15, 2016, 10:02:48 PM
I don't know why the PNG file is so over size.  JPGs yes...
but first time one of a PNG has turned up so large.

(Better to rigkt click and then click on view rather than
scroll aroung on the PNG)

note

RO magnets and SL magnets can be sequenced as in the above file, but aslo the number of
magnets used is not limited to that number in the PNG file.

Output by SL, can be based around attraction of SL to RO, repultion of SL to RO or combinations of both.
depending upon magnet orientations.

Multiple parallel TD units may be benificially mechanically linked.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 15, 2016, 10:16:49 PM
@floor
I agree that there is little back face interaction when the poles are on the magnets sides and are twisted together as in your setup and there would need to be something else going on to see any OU effects.
The EDEN project was one of the first magnet interactions I tested and found by using a digital scale instead of the spring scale they used, I found no extra force in their experiment.

Then recently after reading again that the effect was greater using thin magnets over the cubes originally used, I thought it might be worth testing again and also because the Miller device appears to use the same concept.
Putting some logic behind the reason for the claimed OU gain is why I thought the connection to the back side faces assisting in the rotation may be the source.

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 16, 2016, 02:59:07 AM
@lumen

  Its all good.

      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 16, 2016, 10:00:31 AM
If I may add some tips and tricks to this thread.


When you calculate gain, it is very important to calculate the energy, not forces alone.
I say this because there is so many misconseptions about force.
Most people forget to take the distance, either in the form of linear motion or rotational motion into account.
A linear force, or rotational force (torque) can not alone be responsible for the overall performance.


Say you have two electric motors for example.
If both motors, motor 1 and motor 2, have a torque of, say 10Nm each.
Motor 1 achieve this torque at 1000RPM and motor 2 achieve this torque at 2000RPM.
Both motor 1 and 2 have the same torque, and the misconseption is that both motors would cancel eachother out if working agains each other.
However, motor 2 delivers 2 times more energy than motor 1. Therfor, motor 2 will win the competition between the two.
If you place a gear ratio on motor 2, so the shaft spins at 1000RPM and the same as motor 1, the torque would be 20Nm. Therfor motor 2 will win.


A practical experiment with two magnets, where you look at the forces to separate them in two ways. Just as an example.
1-One way is to pull them directly apart. This require 10N of force.
2-The other way is to slide them apart. This require 1N of force.


1-It require a very short distance of separation to take them apart.
2-It requires 10 times the distance to take them apart.


The energy input to separate them are therfor the same. Calculating energy is the very essence.


If you have a rotational device, and calculate torques in 1 degree steps for example.
You can take each sample and multiply with the number of samples. 10 samples for 10 degree motion.
Then you take the result and devide by 10 to get the average torque over 10 degree motion.
Examples of readings of two interacting rotors:
1 - 10Nm, 8Nm, 5Nm, 2Nm, 0.5Nm, 0.4Nm, 0.3Nm, 0.2Nm, 0.1Nm. Sum=26.5Nm/10 samples = 2.65Nm average @ 10° rotation.
2 - 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm, 2.65Nm. Sum 26.5/10 samples = 2,65Nm average @ 10°rotation.


I have done this wrong so many times, untill I suddenly realized that I need to figure out the total energy, not only torque or force.
Then I got the explanation why the practical experiment failed every time - because the product of force and motion was the same and opposite.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 16, 2016, 06:04:18 PM
@Low-Q

 Thanks vidar
...................
At all (interested) readers

Energy (kinetic)= force times displacement.

The joule is a unit of measurement of both energy and work.

1 joule is the amount of energy expended in doing the work of lifting about 102
grams of weight, a distance of 1 meter (in standard gravity).
............................
The newton is a unit of measurement of force.

1 newton of force (by definition) is the force needed to ACCELERATE a 1 kilogram mass
(against a resistance to acceleration, which is due solely to the inertia of that mass)
at the rate of  1 meter per second per each second  (1m/s/s  or  1m/s^2) that the 1
newton of force is applied.
......................................
A 1 kilogram mass exerts 9.80665 (about 10) newtons of force down in Earth's standard gravity.

This because all objects (small objects) in near Earth gravity free fall accelerate at the rate of
9.80665 meters per second per each second that they free fall.

A force causing a 1 kilogram mass to accelerate at the rate of 9.80665 m/s/s is therefore, a force of
9.80665 newtons.

The greater the mass of an attracted object the greater also is the force exerted upon it, under a given
gravitational influence.

The greater the mass of an attracted object the greater also is it's weight, under that given
gravitational influence.
........................................
About 102 grams of mass, (or weight in standard gravity) exerts a force of 1 newton down.

1 newton of force causing  a 1 meter displacement of an object requires an energy transfer of 1 joule of energy. , or one can also say that 1 joule of work is done..

1 joule is the amount of energy expended in doing the work of lifting about 102
grams of weight, a distance of 1 meter (in standard gravity).

In the Twist Drive (TD) measurements, the degrees upon the degree scales represent an amplification of the  mm of fall, that the applied weights move during the increments of  measurement..

              Thank you again vidar.
                       
                            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 19, 2016, 06:19:22 AM
@floor

It's interesting that after running extensive tests in a 3d simulator at 1% error, it does in fact show that a gain in energy is present.
The strange thing is that the gain that it indicates is just slightly over 25%. Though your setup is a bit different it seems the results are nearly the same.

If the results are within 1% at each position and there are 18 positions tested, then it seems it could be off as much as 18% if all tests were off in the same direction and near 1%.
I need to either lower the error to .1% or build a device to test the interaction and collect actual results.

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 19, 2016, 07:05:00 AM
An error measured in % is a relative figure. If you measure +1% error at a million samples per cycle, you still got only 1% error - not a million %.
So your simulations would be correct with an uncertainty of 1%. However, the longer steps you take for each sample, you might miss a lot in between. For example if you missed out a small area where the counter torque is very great.
That said, if the torque has the same sign all around one revolution, and not change sign from + to - the other half, it is probably a working design.


Vidar

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 19, 2016, 07:11:46 AM
@lumen

Thank you for all your efforts.
My hope is that you can find the time for a replication.

I have been looking for some one willing to do a replication for what seem a long time now.
One replication might lead to many others, and (a real body of evidence, for or against).

         best wishes
                      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 19, 2016, 07:59:43 AM
@Floor


Is it any way to make your design small? I would like to make a try building it with small neo-magnets. I have different sizes and shapes. What shape would you prefer?
Maybe some sort of building instructions would be nice.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 19, 2016, 06:44:31 PM
@Low-Q

For starters, and for verification purposes, inexspensive ceramic magnets shoulkd be used.
Also, the magnets ,should be as nearly identicle to those used in my device as is possible.
The magnets I have used were aboyt $ 2 (US).

I have been developing an easy to build design, and I'll let you know as that design progresses.

             floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 19, 2016, 08:34:44 PM
@Low-Q

For starters, and for verification purposes, inexspensive ceramic magnets shoulkd be used.
Also, the magnets ,should be as nearly identicle to those used in my device as is possible.
The magnets I have used were aboyt $ 2 (US).

I have been developing an easy to build design, and I'll let you know as that design progresses.

             floor
Cheap magnets are great for starters. However, all the friction you might have in the system is like noise. A weak signal covered by noise, is very hard to analyze correctly. If you use stronger magnets, the experiment is easier to analyze as you suppress the noise using a stronger "signal".
As a temporary solution, you might even use electromagnets running on AC to generate a stronger magnetic field.
I know AC will change polarity 50 or 60 times per second, but the same happens to both electro magnets at the same time.
So the experiment would probably be a better success in terms of analyzing.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 19, 2016, 11:43:41 PM
Hi Vidar

I used neo's 1/8 x 1/2 x 1-1/2 in the simulator because I have these exact magnets to do the real test.
I also think the reason for the gain is understandable in both floor's design and the way I used them which is a bit different.

Take the case of floor's design in which the poles are on the sides and when rotated parallel both poles are pushing. But when they come together as a cross at 90 degrees to each other, there is almost no repulsion.

The cause of the gain is because the cross position allows a connection of the poles that assist the rotation towards the repelling position even though it's in fact resisting that direction and would move away into the aligned attract position, there is still an assist that is easily seen in FEMM field lines.

This assist allows the magnets to rotate into position with less energy. In floor's layout the assist only helps up to about 30 degrees from the parallel or full repelling position because the thickness of the magnets prevent further assisting.

Of course this is only a theory but there is some logic to it once you see it.
 
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 20, 2016, 02:23:43 AM
@Lumen / vidar

Really, I'd like to just get out of the way of the project at this point, and see what others come up with.
Except that I also would like to see precise measurements and evaluations, that  can be compared meaningfully to my own.

But, this is all in the public domain.. . and of course people can do what ever it is they prefer to with it.

I'm sure that there are a large number of variations in magnet shape and strength worth checking out.

A week ago, I formed a u shaped magnet configuration on the slider side, by clamping 3 magnets in place of just the one.  The RO magnet fit between 2 of the magnets and butted up to the third one as in " normal"  operation.  This radically changed the interactions.

It would be nice to seeing a spin off topic, just for the purpose of those many variations. 

But, I what I would really like to see under this topic, are replications, which are of similar enough  interactions, that hey could will validate  the present design.  I hope people can understand why I think this is important at this point.  While keeping these things in mind, it's all good and I say, lets go for it.

                        best wishes
                                floor

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on September 20, 2016, 03:33:10 AM
Hi Floor,


thanks for the newer data and details.


My thinking cap is on to try to cum up with a simple gotoluc build ;)


I found this video that looks to be related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY)



If you have any ideas drawn up that you would share, I may be able to think of other possibilities.



Thanks for sharing


Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 20, 2016, 05:37:56 AM
Hi Floor,


thanks for the newer data and details.


My thinking cap is on to try to cum up with a simple gotoluc build ;)


I found this video that looks to be related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY)



If you have any ideas drawn up that you would share, I may be able to think of other possibilities.



Thanks for sharing


Luc

That is some overly complicated device but it is similar in operation.
I think it would be best to start with something simple to prove a working concept.

Some theory as to how the energy is gained would be helpful since it would be required to quickly improve the output.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 20, 2016, 03:20:39 PM
Qoute from Luc  "I found this video that looks to be related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY" END QUOTE

Awsome... looks like the twist drive to the T,  except that the T stands for Torque...pun intended 

Also, it looks like supporing eveidence is starting to pile up.

so cool.

                   thanks all
                             floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 20, 2016, 04:20:39 PM
How much energy is required to turn magnet 3 in that video?
If both magnets are rectangular, they would  be hard to turn 90 degrees of each other.
I know about the slide-force-part, and that require less force to do, but what about the displacement needed to slide them apart?
Would the displacement needed for sliding be 4 times the displacement needed to pull the magnets directly apart?


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 20, 2016, 05:28:50 PM
How much energy is required to turn magnet 3 in that video?
If both magnets are rectangular, they would  be hard to turn 90 degrees of each other.
I know about the slide-force-part, and that require less force to do, but what about the displacement needed to slide them apart?
Would the displacement needed for sliding be 4 times the displacement needed to pull the magnets directly apart?


Vidar

I'm sure it depends on the shape of the magnets but you can bet it's not the 25% as he is claiming.
From his sketches I would think it would be closer to 80-90%.

With all the moving parts in that design I'm sure any gain would be quickly lost to friction.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2016, 02:07:24 AM
@GoToLuc

Thanks, I'm thinking on /  looking for some simple design, but pretty much stumped / busy at  present.

@ Lumen and Low-Q

I also think the mechanical linkage design, in the Jessie R. Johnson video would be a very ineffective one,

But also I think the sketch was probably just intended to illustrate the idea of / necessity of... mechanical
linkage and timing of RO and SL in order to get cyclic operation.

             floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 21, 2016, 04:03:08 AM
@GoToLuc

Thanks, I'm thinking on /  looking for some simple design, but pretty much stumped / busy at  present.

@ Lumen and Low-Q

I also think the mechanical linkage design, in the Jessie R. Johnson video would be a very ineffective one,

But also I think the sketch was probably just intended to illustrate the idea of / necessity of... mechanical
linkage and timing of RO and SL in order to get cyclic operation.


             floor

I'm thinking more along the line of the Steorn nodding donkey!
Is it possible that they really did have something and couldn't release it because it wasn't theirs?

I'm setting up now to do some actual measurements on real magnets both to see how close the results match the simulator and to collect some real data before building anything.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 21, 2016, 01:47:18 PM
@gotoluc

Lumens nodding donkey idea sounds to me like a good starting place
for a simple desigh ?

@Low-Q
Are you looking into electro magnet design variations ?  see the design
posted below

            best wishes
                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 22, 2016, 07:35:29 PM
My test measurements on the real magnets produced a gain of only 12%.
That is about half of what the simulation suggested and is what I consider to be within error limits where there may actually be no gain at all.

My scale was not accurate enough to detect the weaker forces of the small magnets with a resolution of only 10 grams and so may possibly account for some error.
The good news is that it does indicate a possible gain.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 22, 2016, 09:16:52 PM
@Lumen

Can you give us details.
 
Which magnets were used.. type and dimensions.
What were the magnet orientations.
What degrees of rotation for RO magnet from parallel to 90 off.
SL maximum and minimum distances from SL were.
graphs and so on.


                            Thanks floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 23, 2016, 12:06:40 AM
@Lumen

Can you give us details.
 
Which magnets were used.. type and dimensions.
What were the magnet orientations.
What degrees of rotation for RO magnet from parallel to 90 off.
SL maximum and minimum distances from SL were.
graphs and so on.


                            Thanks floor

I will put it together so it's easy to understand, plus it would be good if someone else went through the data and calculated the result also to make sure us old guys didn't forget something.  :o

I found another scale that would work really well with collecting forces on my CNC machine.
It can take readings and save the data using an external input switch.
So I could have the machine make moves and it could instruct the scale when to save the data.
That means that I could map all data points over the RO rotation at every step/distance along the SL.
Wow, that kind of gives me a headache.

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 23, 2016, 02:05:25 AM
@lumen

Believe me, I understand that these measurements sets turn into a lot of numbers.
My measurements  have all been done by hand.
Do what you can as you can.

But please let us know the basics at this point 
12% ... understood.

But which magnet alignments were they ?

Lumens X  ie pole to pole ?
       or
floors X   ie Polar edges to Polar edges ?

                 thanks
                      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 23, 2016, 06:39:21 AM
So here are the results that I calculated to have a gain of about 12% excess output over input.
I tried to make it easy with all steps including the rotation move to be .05"
You can see from the negative number in the data, that near the end of the sequence the magnets pull together.

The magnets at their zero spacing have about .03" gap in all the tests.

I also added a short animation of the entire sequence.
 
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 23, 2016, 10:30:43 AM
Thanks Lumen

sumthun to  study  contemplate

            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 23, 2016, 10:35:33 AM
So here are the results that I calculated to have a gain of about 12% excess output over input.
I tried to make it easy with all steps including the rotation move to be .05"
You can see from the negative number in the data, that near the end of the sequence the magnets pull together.

The magnets at their zero spacing have about .03" gap in all the tests.

I also added a short animation of the entire sequence.
http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/160341/ (http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/160341/)
What is the torque readings you got here? It looks like you have only calculated the linear force between the magnets.


EDIT: Or is the Force readings actually torque? in Pic2? If it is, it require about 7.32 Joule to turn the magnet 90 degrees. You get 0.11 Joule in repulsion in Pic3...(???)


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 23, 2016, 04:59:19 PM
http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/160341/ (http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/160341/)
What is the torque readings you got here? It looks like you have only calculated the linear force between the magnets.


EDIT: Or is the Force readings actually torque? in Pic2? If it is, it require about 7.32 Joule to turn the magnet 90 degrees. You get 0.11 Joule in repulsion in Pic3...(???)


Vidar

Vidar
The torque is the force at a radius of .5093 from the center pivot point.
At this distance, a 90 degree rotation causes a linear movement of .800" inch.

This keeps the travel distance and step size equal over all tests.
I simply added all the forces in each set and divided by the number of steps to get the average step force for each set.
You need to find the average so the zero readings are included over the full distance traveled.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 23, 2016, 06:41:37 PM
Vidar
The torque is the force at a radius of .5093 from the center pivot point.
At this distance, a 90 degree rotation causes a linear movement of .800" inch.

This keeps the travel distance and step size equal over all tests.
I simply added all the forces in each set and divided by the number of steps to get the average step force for each set.
You need to find the average so the zero readings are included over the full distance traveled.
OK. I don't think I understood that :D
What software are you using to measure forces in 3D?


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 23, 2016, 07:13:28 PM
OK. I don't think I understood that :D
What software are you using to measure forces in 3D?


Vidar

The measurements in the pictures were made from real magnets using a digital scale and CNC machines to apply the forces.
It's intent was to verify the forces indicated in software using "Maxwell 3D"

It appears that both software and the real tests produced similar curves for each test.
The software used N35 magnets and the real tests used N42 and might explain some of the difference in results.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 25, 2016, 04:29:09 PM
I have a larger set of magnets (1/8 x 1.00 x 2.00) that are much stronger and it might be interesting to test in the same fashion to see if the results are similar.
These larger magnets should have forces more suited to my scales range and the variation in shape should change the result for better or worse.

I also have another set that are very strong (.50 x 1.00 x 2.00) that could be tested in a similar test or with the parallel orientation as in floor's tests.

Because these are all neodymium magnets there is likely no domain shifting within the magnets and the only theory I might have for gain in energy would be that the field itself might be partially assisting with the alignment.  :o

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2016, 08:08:44 PM
@Lumen
 
Do you plan to also test the "floor" configuration ?
Would you like me to do a graph set of your last measurments?
....................
@all readers

Please find the attached pdf file    "both pdf".

The motions depicted in this pdf animation are not necessarily
identical to the motions that would actually occur under the conditions
animated.  The lateral displacements of the SLs would tend to occur during most of
the RO rotation, and not only when RO is at maximum repulsion and attraction positions.

                        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2016, 08:18:43 PM
The design illustrated in the "both.pdf" is given into the public domain.
It is a method of torque conversion and also a basis for a magnet motor.

                   floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 25, 2016, 09:15:59 PM
@Lumen
 
Do you plan to also test the "floor" configuration ?
Would you like me to do a graph set of your last measurments?
....................
                        floor

@floor
At this time I am trying to come up with a good design for a test rig where I could hold many different size magnets and perform rotational and distance moves to collect force data on all the points in between.

I believe I understand now why and how the action provides extra energy but additional data may lead to the optimum configuration.
If I build a universal testing device it would be possible to collect data on many different interactions including yours.

As far as graphing the last data set? I probably wouldn't spend additional time on it thinking additional data is more important at this point but thanks anyway.
We'll see what happens in the next test.

Why do I feel "Steorn" has already done all this and knows the result. Didn't they have a machine to do this exact same thing?


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 25, 2016, 09:17:50 PM
Righty o

           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 26, 2016, 04:21:45 PM
@ all readers

I have received a communication from an old user here "lost causes 10X"

Although I do not entirely agree with his conclusion, I am publishing  that
communication here because, I find his observations / insights to be valuable.

One of the ideas he has presented, is that SL magnet  motion is actually twice
the RO magnet motion, and hence the apparent, but not actual OU.

I on the other hand, think that under ideal conditions the work done on SL by the weights
would be exactly twice the work done by RO on its weights.  It is this (ideal 2 : 1) part of his
idea that I find agreement with.

Please find his, the attached PNG file "lost causes 10 X"

                            best wishes
                                      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 26, 2016, 04:23:45 PM
File below
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 26, 2016, 08:21:53 PM
That is one hard to comprehend line of thinking.
The angle is not improtant in the results when the data invloves only force over distance.
I had configured my test to avoid any additional conversion of forces by keeping all measurements linear over the same distance. The angle need not even be known.
This allows for easy comparison of work done or required along every movement.

Looking for fault in the angles used is simply looking for a reason to claim failure.
IMO


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 27, 2016, 06:58:42 PM
@lumen

I'm interested in what GOOD critics have to say, because their critical examinations often bring
about new points of view.  I don't have to agree with their conclusions.

LostCauses10X likes to rock the boat.. . Sometimes  boats need a good shaking.
I don't mind it, so long as it doesn't sink the boat, or knock somebody over board.

Please find the attached file circular.PDF

               best wishes
                         floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 28, 2016, 06:10:10 PM
@lumen

I'm interested in what GOOD critics have to say, because their critical examinations often bring
about new points of view.  I don't have to agree with their conclusions.

LostCauses10X likes to rock the boat.. . Sometimes  boats need a good shaking.
I don't mind it, so long as it doesn't sink the boat, or knock somebody over board.

Please find the attached file circular.PDF

               best wishes
                         floor
I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze.
The "stator" magnet must do 4 revolutions for each revolution of the rotor. If you just can find a way to calculate or simulate the energy required to rotate the stator 4 times and simulate the energy provided by the rotor for one revolution. Maxwell 3D can maybe do this?
I imagine that the stator will constantly counterforce as there is no place to "rest", and it is rotating 4 times faster than the rotor. So I am wondering if it is possible to determine in which direction the rotor will go if we look at how much displacement there is involved vs. torque...


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 29, 2016, 12:17:54 AM
@Low-Q

Quote from Low-Q "I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze." END QUOTE

I disagree on both counts

"Believers " are not particularly useful in science.

It seems to me that seeing some actual evidence that it can work, should precede one's building "IT".

The circular "IT" device is vaguely describe in my PDF file, and exactly timing the two rotations would not be
"easy".

Easy to make a mess of seem most likely.?

                        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 29, 2016, 01:16:50 AM
I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze.
The "stator" magnet must do 4 revolutions for each revolution of the rotor. If you just can find a way to calculate or simulate the energy required to rotate the stator 4 times and simulate the energy provided by the rotor for one revolution. Maxwell 3D can maybe do this?
I imagine that the stator will constantly counterforce as there is no place to "rest", and it is rotating 4 times faster than the rotor. So I am wondering if it is possible to determine in which direction the rotor will go if we look at how much displacement there is involved vs. torque...


Vidar

Floor's design might work or might work even better if the rotor was a smaller diameter to increase leverage.
I feel that if in fact some gain can be achieved in magnetic interaction, then the reason for it needs to be determined in order to build a useful machine.

At this time, it seems to me that the part of the interaction that is detrimental is the attraction part. So far it appears that gain only comes from a neutral position to a repelling position and that once in full attraction one can never achieve a gain from that position.

To do software testing on a design even as simple as floor's rotary design involves many magnets and many steps which would take days to calculate even with a script making the moves.
It's usually easier and faster to build a device to test it but the reason why the device should work needs to be known first.

But you never know, it could just work!  ???


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 29, 2016, 07:19:31 AM
I'll clarify my position.

I have as of this point in time, built 3 different measuring devices, in order to test if indeed there is a difference in

the work required to separate two magnets in attraction by rotation
.....and
the work to  separate those magnets by directly pulling them apart.

The question I at first had in mind was ...  did it only appear to be easier to twist them apart, due to the mechanics of human hands, wrists and so on ? or was there actually a  difference.

The  first of my three devices could only measure the peak forces of each of these two scenarios.   
The difference in those peak values was   > 19% .  Hence the name of this topic.

The second device was a modification of the first device which allowed measurements of the varied force (as weight applied)  at increments of distance.

After a series of blunders  due to my lack of  understanding of

the process of integrating a changing force over distance,
     and
also incorrect interpretation of graphs of those forces.

I hit the books.  Things are very different at this time, my knowledge base has expanded very considerably.
..............................
Additionally, I now have an accurate device (device number 3) for making those measurements.

The SL work is more than  173%  greater than  RO not merely  19% ... I have no doubt of this, as  I have measured and pondered this many times now.  I also understand that this is basically unbelievable.

As to, is this is possible or  not  and   how could  it possibly work, 

                          I CARE NOT EVEN ONE TINY BIT at his point in time.

As to whether others should  believe my claims ?  No... I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD.  I DO think they should see for their selves.   If my presentations have been inadequate toward the goal of inspiring others to that end, I do apologize.

If the reader realizes that his skills and or resources are inadequate to the task, that's  ok.. 

But If you cannot do muster excellence,  in either confirmation or refutation of my findings, is would be far far better just to stay out of the way.  I do a good enough job of cluttering up the topic with out any ones help.

                                 best wishes
                                            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on September 29, 2016, 08:35:04 AM
Quote
The question I at first had in mind was ...  did it only appear to be easier to twist them apart, due to the mechanics of human hands, wrists and so on ? or was there actually a  difference.[/size]
This is exactly why we cannot trust our hand. The twist require less force, but on the other hand it also require more displacement to achieve a full separation.
Peak values are not interesting. It is the average values vs. displacement that is interesting to analyze.
Since the forces change during the operation, it is needed to be taken as many samples as possible.


I can agree with you in your previous post that actually building this device is much easier. If it works, it should work. If not, we need no more testing or tweaking.
Magnets are conservative, and should by their nature not be able to perform work. There is "always" a catch in magnet motor designs that the inventor didn't think of at first.


If theory and practice doesn't add up, we must throw away the theory - just like the theory of global warming that doesn't add upp with actual reason for global warming (except that the global warming theory cost too much prestige, money and column inches to throw away).


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: triffid on September 29, 2016, 04:08:11 PM
test,just wanted a link back to this thread.triffid
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on September 29, 2016, 06:45:32 PM
@floor
I was wondering if your increase in gain was related to notching the magnet in your last setup?
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 30, 2016, 12:36:09 AM
Hi Lumen

Here is some relevant info.

First, working with RO  at  32 deg. off from parallel  cuts done  the
distance traveled  by SL, before SL is beyond significant influence from RO.

This was done because   MY TD unit has limited SL range of travel.
In order to arrive at a distance where in...  SL is "free" from RO,  but also
RO is "free" from SL  I needed to keep RO to no more than Around 30
degrees from parallel.   

In  other words...  in order to find the distance at which at which RO can be
FREELY rotated to parallel,  would have been a greater distance than
then the length of the sliding rails used in my version of a TD unit.   

All this gives us information about the interactions, but again is a kind of back
wards approaching of the interactions.  Still, it gives us perspectives we might
not immediately have noticed other wise.

Notching the SL matters....  IF one is looking at / running  the TD unit Back wards !
notching the SL matters..... but is not necessary at all, if one is operating the TD
with RO as input and SL as out put.


         Good questions
               floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 30, 2016, 12:52:33 AM
CORRECTION

QUOTE  "In  other words...  in order to find the distance at which at which RO can be
FREELY rotated to parallel, " END QUOTE

RATHER

in other words.... in order to find the distance of SL from RO...
at which RO can be  FREELY rotated to parallel is not possible on my unit. 

Up to around 30 degrees is the the most parallel one can go before RO resistance to
rotation becomes significant.  SL simple will not travel far enough (on my TD unit).
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on September 30, 2016, 09:39:44 PM
I think I have found a compatable theory for the energy source.

             Phlogiston !

                         smile
                               floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 01, 2016, 12:22:45 AM
I just finished doing some calculations on new results from my latest test rig so here are some results without all the detail but the idea.

Using magnets that are 1/8 x 1.00 x 2.00  there was a gain of 13.5%

Though this sounds like a good amount of extra work but it is actually a force of .155 grams (5.47 oz) over a distance of 20.32 mm (.800 inch)

The maximum force on the structure at the worst point is about 3.63 Kg between the magnets.
So any device that could run on those magnets would have to operate with a few ounces of force but also be strong enough to withstand forces over 8 lbs.

Just a thought on the expectations of friction and design.

This new setup is a bit more universal so I'm thinking to move on to floor's arrangement and see what happens there. 8)
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 01, 2016, 01:33:58 AM
Thanks for the update Lumen.

                 regards
                          floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 01, 2016, 04:20:18 AM
I may try a design something like this because it could handle high forces and yet operate with very little friction.

@floor
I could always change the magnet orientations to your layout if testing proves it to be more efficient!
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 01, 2016, 03:15:20 PM
@Low-Q

QUOTE from Low-Q "If theory and practice doesn't add up, we must throw away the theory -  "END QUOTE

You bring up good points. 

I am NOT proceeding from the theoretical to the empirical..  This whole endeavor has been 
based only upon observations and measurements.

I have only some vague ideas / observations as to why there is difference in the work RO to work SL.

1. It would seem to violate conservation, but once it is understood, probably doesn't ?

2. Any two magnets interacting in either predominantly attraction or repulsion, actually are
influenced by both, some attraction and some repulsion.  In the TD magnet configuration.
the ratios of attraction and repulsion are different under the conditions of rotation as
compared to a direct approaching ?

3. The configuration  /  interactions ,gives rise to some form of magnetic shielding ?

However, I am NOT proceeding from the theoretical to the empirical..  This whole endeavor has been 
based only upon observations and measurements.

Those measurements are of some of the most basic and simple physical properties.

My measurements and processes are either correct (within an acceptable margin)
 or
they are in error. 

The conclusion are self evident.

@Lumen

No worries, but,I don't understand the force inbteractions and or motions in your drawings.

                         floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 02, 2016, 02:11:56 AM
Here are some pictures of my rotary and slide force measuring devices.
The replaceable ends help to make it a bit more universal in testing different magnet shapes.

I use the same digital scale on both devices to avoid any scale error.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 02, 2016, 02:57:54 AM
@Lumen

See the questions on the Picture Below.

I was looking at my RO unit in terms of how much effort for me to
mount a ceramic magnet in "Lumen's" face to face alignment. 
I would have to replace the RO magnet - mount with something more
universal as well.

                   floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 02, 2016, 03:35:30 AM
@floor

You are correct,that is exactly how it is setup.
I am making some small changes because the next magnets I'll be testing are 1/4 x 1/2 x 2.00 and are very strong.
I will test them face to face and with parallel poles to see what difference might exist.

There is one last pair that I would like to test but these are 1/2 x 1 x 2 and are super strong and I need to make sure they don't get loose!
The aluminum foil tape is ok for thin magnets with 20Lbs pull but 60Lbs or better......Humm

It would be interesting to see if output remains proportional over all the sets.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 02, 2016, 04:28:05 PM
@Lumen

more data, more good

                   floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 02, 2016, 10:26:53 PM
Collecting data can be helpful but I'm wondering about the math.
Because magnets are not a linear force is it reasonable to assume that using a linear calculation like averaging is in fact accurate.

It just seems that finding results of 12% and then 13.5% for a calculation that should in fact be equal ( 0% OU), appears it could be an error in the math process.
Is there anyone good at math that can verify the data indicates an actual gain?
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 03, 2016, 03:00:07 PM
CORRECTIONS

In reference to my last published measurement sets...

I have stated that RO is 173 % greater than SL ... a transposition error, a miswording and WRONG.
I have stated that SL is 173 % greater than RO... a  miss-wording error and WRONG.
Neither was correct.
 
rather
SL was 173 % of RO
     and
SL was 73 % greater than RO
                        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 03, 2016, 04:02:01 PM
@ Lumen

QUOTE FROM Lumen
"appears it could be an error in the math process. Is there anyone good at math that
can verify the data indicates an actual gain?"  END QUOTE

I proceeded by measuring mm of fall and grams of weight. with no conversions
to joules.  The RATIOS of the (products of RO) to the (products of SL) will be the same
as the ratios of a conversion to (joules RO) to (joules SL).

Example 1...  A x B   is to  C x D  has the same ratio as  (A x B) x F is to  (C x D) x F.

In my last presented  measurement sets.  I dived the products of
force and displacement (work RO) by 2... but also I dived the products
of force and displacement (work SL)  by 2. Doesn't change a thing
in terms of the ratio of work in to work out, but is does misstate both
the work in and the work out by 1/2.
..............................
Work = force times displacement
           specifically
Joules of work = newtons of force times meters of displacement.
..............................
Your motions that are rotational, can be translated into
their linear equivalents.  Lots of math, but simple math.
.......................
Each of your (little measurements) of force times displacement is a
complete statement of work done. 

The totals for all of the little RO works done is simply the total
work done on RO.

The totals for all of the little linear SL works done is simply the total
work done on SL.

Averaging isn't  the way I proceeded,  but do it your own way.
............................
I really don't mind and even appreciate it if others correct  my errors.  I very much so
oppose it when this become a put down game.

I think we need to check each others work / math / methods and so on,
and to simply discuss it   No big deal..

              regards
                       Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 03, 2016, 06:02:37 PM
@ Lumen

   some observations

In your photo of your RO setup..

It looks like you have to re-position the force gauge after
every  degree or two of rotation ?  this could account for
an apparent OU result ?

A rack and pinon gear would translate the rotational
to a linear motion with a consistant margin of error ?

or a nodding donky set up and a PULLING force measurement
could be used... but then chain / or string,  stretch could become
problematic ?


       regards
        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 03, 2016, 06:28:38 PM
@ Lumen

   some observations

In your photo of your RO setup..

It looks like you have to re-position the force gauge after
every  degree or two of rotation ?  this could account for
an apparent OU result ?

A rack and pinon gear would translate the rotational
to a linear motion with a consistant margin of error ?

or a nodding donky set up and a PULLING force measurement
could be used... but then chain / or string,  stretch could become
problematic ?


       regards
        floor

The rotary table rotates everything as a single unit.
There are bearings inside which the magnet mounts to, but they don't turn because the scale holds it stationary measuring only the force applied.
The entire setup is then rotated against the stationary SL magnet using whatever steps desired.

So the scale never needs to be moved because it rotates with the setup on the rotary table measuring the forces applied from a stationary external magnet (SL).
This way the scale always remains at 90 degrees to the force arm so the reading is not affected by a changing angle on the arm.

As far as the math?
I understand the force distance formula for work but what the problem amounts to exactly is what force?
In my case the distance is always the same so that part is easy. The force is at points and the change between any two points is not linear.
So thinking that the force to use is the average of two points over that distance could only be close but not exact, and if not exact, what could the error be?

The method I use is (average of 17 points) * 16 spaces = total force over .800 inch travel which is the same over all tests.

Just looking for an explanation for the energy gain that should not exist.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 04, 2016, 12:14:56 AM
Another thought is that these tests are only a comparison of the work done in making moves between two magnets that should amount to zero but do not and that even with a small percent of error in the math, the same error would exist on all measurements and would have no real effect on the result.

If I ran the same tests using two round magnet and used the same method to find excess energy then the result would in fact show zero gain.

So it is then the magnet shape that impacts the result.


Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 04, 2016, 03:29:25 AM
@ lumen

I'm commited else where for the next 4 days.

I think we are still on the same page.

We need to be certain of  the validity of our processes and  methods,
both meachanically and mathematically, or else change them.
I'm certain that in either case we can do so.

                     later
                         floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 04, 2016, 05:33:45 AM
@floor
No problem, I have a few things to do also before setting up this next test.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 05, 2016, 03:45:55 PM
Collecting data can be helpful but I'm wondering about the math.
Because magnets are not a linear force is it reasonable to assume that using a linear calculation like averaging is in fact accurate.

It just seems that finding results of 12% and then 13.5% for a calculation that should in fact be equal ( 0% OU), appears it could be an error in the math process.
Is there anyone good at math that can verify the data indicates an actual gain?
Math never makes mistakes. It is the person who do them who fails. That is the platform we humans must build our experiences on.


If you want reliable measurements, you must take a high number of samples. Especially when the magnets are very close to eachother. A 1mm resolution sample when the magnets are 10mm apart is 100 times more accurate than the sample made 1mm apart. So you have to scale down the sample rate the closer the magnets are to each other. Maybe 0.1mm resolution when they are close, and 1mm resolution further apart.


It is easy to miss out major force or torque readings when you have a coarse sample rate.


If the math proves over unity, it is the samples that are wrong. Calculating an accurate result is very time consuming, but not actually rocket science. I would say closer to primary school math. The trick is to not miss out samples that have a major effect on the result.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 06, 2016, 06:41:48 PM
@ Vidar

In the next two tests I have planned, I will take many more data points to remove any question of high angle transitions that could have been missed.

A graph of the last test data (not yet posted) does not show any indication of rapid transitions that could have amounted to 13.5% so I am reasonably convinced that there is something going on that could be useful in the design of a real operating machine.

Once I find the point of maximum attainable gain I plan to proceed to build a machine that can function within those parameters.
I still need to test floor's configuration because he states an even higher gain than what I have seen.

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 06, 2016, 09:59:44 PM
@ lumen


Looking forward to see the results. I hope you pull this one off :)
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 07, 2016, 10:03:51 PM
These are the results of the second test that I wasn't going to post but just in case someone is interested.
The magnets used were 1/8 x 1 x 2.

In the test the magnets are pushed together against the large faces but rotated 90 degrees to each other.
At zero distance the gap was .1 between the magnets and then they are rotated to be parallel and in full repulsion.
They are then moved apart at the exit stroke which seems to provide 13.5% more work than the other two mavements.

The step size is .05 inch and is the same in all the steps even the rotation which is shown as degrees at a force radius of .5093 and 5.625 degree steps is making a movement of .05 inch.

All of the next tests will have a reduced step of .01 inch to provide assurance of it's accuracy.

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 12, 2016, 11:30:12 PM
@ lumen

Nice presentation.

The only changes in force that could be easily missed, are those
occurring at very close range,  (domain flipping).

Other wise, the curves are pretty predictable.

I think one could  skew the ratio of RO to SL by differing the
number of samples taken on one side or the other.

How dramatically the law of diminishing returns is affecting the two sets (RO and SL)
is the only question I have at this point.

         floor

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 13, 2016, 10:31:42 PM
@ floor

Thanks, good to see you made it back.

I thought plotting the curves might show some problem area but it looks like nothing could explain 13.5% error.
Once I modify this setup to take some stronger forces I'm thinking of running this same test over using smaller steps and recalculate the results.
If it ends up about the same results, I suppose that would indicate we are on the right track anyway.

I first need to finish another project so it might be another week before I can do the tests.
Interesting stuff!
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 14, 2016, 12:53:10 AM
Acknowledged

            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 20, 2016, 04:40:02 PM
Why does the twist drive work ?

Why is there such a great difference between the
inducing and induced fields in an electromagnet ?

It takes less force and or energy to rotate atoms / molecules into a magnetic domain
alignment, than the net linear force which those atoms can  manifest collectively
as magnetic domains.

The twist drive works for the same reason ?

                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 20, 2016, 05:30:15 PM
You might have experienced what we call flux modulation - that has played you a trick.
Flux modulation might be a problem in speakers. The magnetized iron pole piece is modulated by the voicecoil (Which is an electromagnet), and cause modulation of the magnetic airgap where the voicecoil is located. This will cause a different BL product on positive versus negative excursion of the coil.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 20, 2016, 10:56:46 PM
@Low-Q

QUOTE FROM Low-Q

"You might have experienced what we call flux modulation - that has played you a trick.
Flux modulation might be a problem in speakers. The magnetized iron pole piece is modulated by the voicecoil (Which is an electromagnet), and cause modulation of the magnetic airgap where the voicecoil is located. This will cause a different BL product on positive versus negative excursion of the coil."
END QUOTE

I was not referring to either, an alternating or pulsating DC current. 
Iwas NOT referring to a solenoid WITH  A MOVING CORE.

I am referring to the fact that a DC energized coil WITH  AN IRON CORE (an electromagnet)
can produce a MANY TIMES GREATER magnetic force than...

that same DC energized coil in the absents of an iron core.  This even when the same amperage
is flowing through the coil in both cases.

                             floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 20, 2016, 11:35:06 PM
OK. Iron will narrow the magnetic flux into its core on the expense of less magnetic flux outside it, but the total magnetism, if you could "count" the magnetic lines, will be the same number as in an electromagnet with an air core.
The flux must loop from north to south. When you use an iron core, the fluxlines are taking sharper corners than using air core. Therfor the magnetic force is greater with an iron core, but on the expense on how far that force can reach - normally in a very narrow space.
It is where the fluxlines takes its sharpest corners where the force is greatest - closest to the physical corners/circumference of the iron core at the south or north pole.


What has this to do with the twist drive? Does it make any difference in practice wether you use iron core or not? No criticism, just asking.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on October 21, 2016, 12:11:04 AM
I have to say this new laundry room is taking longer than I wanted.
12' x 18' , drywall, plumbing, flooring, ceiling, electrical.... what else?

I need to get back and collect more data before I'm dead!
Hope to be back soon.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 21, 2016, 03:07:09 AM
@Low-Q

QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"OK. Iron will narrow the magnetic flux into its core on the expense of less magnetic flux outside it, but the total magnetism, if you could "count" the magnetic lines, will be the same number as in an electromagnet with an air core.
The flux must loop from north to south. When you use an iron core, the fluxlines are taking sharper corners than using air core. Therfor the magnetic force is greater with an iron core, but on the expense on how far that force can reach - normally in a very narrow space.
It is where the fluxlines takes its sharpest corners where the force is greatest - closest to the physical corners/circumference of the iron core at the south or north pole.

What has this to do with the twist drive? Does it make any difference in practice wether you use iron core or not? No criticism, just asking."
 
 END QUOTE

Firstly...  I am not an expert in magnets. I once thought, that an Iron core only concentrated a coils magnetic field, but did not
actually increase it. 

I keep learning more all the time.

Quote from  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html

"Electromagnets are usually in the form of iron core solenoids. The ferromagnetic property of the iron core causes the internal magnetic domains of the iron to line up with THE SMALLER DRIVING MAGNETIC FIELD produced by the current in the solenoid. The effect is the multiplication of the magnetic field by factors of tens to even thousands." END QUOTE

               best wishes
                  floor                       

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 21, 2016, 03:11:38 AM
@Lumen

Don't rush it.
Just get into it, and geter done.

                  floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 23, 2016, 03:00:29 PM
@ all readers.

Here is a configuration, in which RO is the output and
SL is the input. 

The work in to work out ratio can become
extreamly large. 

This is because the work to place the RO (rotating) magnet
between the two SL (slideing) magnets ocuurs mainly, just as
the ends of magnets SL begin to pass the end of
magnet RO.

The  length (latteral) of the magnets can be increased, by
useing multiple magnets, placed end to end.

Increasing the length of the magnets DOES NOT increase
the input work, but it DOES Increase the output work.

please find the attached PDF

                 best wishes
                              floor






Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 23, 2016, 03:37:00 PM
Quote
I once thought, that an Iron core only concentrated a coils magnetic field, but did not
actually increase it.
And you were right. It does not increase, but concentrate the field to a narrow space. Increasing flux density into a narrower space like using a lens to focus sunlight so you can burn ants.
The energy in the light does not increase, but is narrowed to a smaller point so the energy density increase.
The total sunlight energy, or magnetic flux, appears to increase, but it doesn't. Only the density changes on the expence of a smaller space.
Remember that the only magnetic field lines that is available, is only those that is around the wire in the coil.

Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 27, 2016, 03:06:02 PM
@Low-Q

QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"And you were right. It does not increase, but concentrate the field to a narrow space. Increasing flux density into a narrower space like using a lens to focus sunlight so you can burn ants."
END QUOTE
                                                            Invalid anology.


QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"The energy in the light does not increase, but is narrowed to a smaller point so the energy density increase."
END QUOTE
                                                             Correct


The total sunlight energy, or magnetic flux, appears to increase, but it doesn't. Only the density changes on the expence of a smaller space. "
END QUOTE
                                                            Invalid anology.                                         


QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"Remember that the only magnetic field lines that is available, is only those that is around the wire in the coil."
END QUOTE
                                                            Wrong


Quote from  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html

"Electromagnets are usually in the form of iron core solenoids. The ferromagnetic property of the iron core causes the internal magnetic domains of the iron to line up with THE SMALLER DRIVING MAGNETIC FIELD produced by the current in the solenoid. The effect is the multiplication of the magnetic field by factors of tens to even thousands."

END QUOTE

                     Floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 27, 2016, 04:44:42 PM
Quote
the iron core causes the internal magnetic domains of the iron to line up with THE SMALLER DRIVING MAGNETIC FIELD produced by the current in the solenoid[/size]
What do you think this means?


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 28, 2016, 12:16:11 AM
@ Low-Q

OK I'll bite, What do you think it means ?

       floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 28, 2016, 10:53:02 PM
Ok:
The magnetism from the coil will align the magnetic polarity of the atoms in the iron in the same direction. This will increase the magnetic flux density through the core. This magnetic flux that exits the iron core is still attracting the iron, so the flux density is very much focused in the close vicinity of the iron, and want to take the shortest path back in to the south pole of the iron core.


This will cause the flux density to be very strong at the poles, tens, maybe hundereds times stronger. However, this increased magnetic flux density have its price. The flux doesn't reach as far any more, because they are to busy with the iron core.


The two iron plates is the reason why closet door magnets are so strong, but doesn't shut the closet door when it is too open. The magnetic flux is virtually jumping directly to the other iron plate on the other side of the magnet, making the closet door magnet weak on distance but very strong when the door is closed, and keep it there until a strong force opens the door, but the door does not even have to move a millimeter before you can open the door with ease.


The conclusion is that the flux density increase with the iron core, but the total available magnetism does not increase. Just focused. You can test this by using two air core coils, and power them up, and then face equal poles close to eachother. The magnetic field is escaping the gap between the coils as a very dense magnetic flux without an iron core, but the total available magnetism hasn't changed a bit.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 30, 2016, 08:45:13 AM
@Low-Q

The goal of this topic is the presentation of replications of the measurement process / experiment.

I do not agree with your interpretations of the information at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html .   

Also I do not find your choice of wording to be concise enough to allow for a meaningful response
on my part.

except that

I do not agree with your conclusions.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 30, 2016, 09:44:45 PM
@Low-Q

The goal of this topic is the presentation of replications of the measurement process / experiment.

I do not agree with your interpretations of the information at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html) .   

Also I do not find your choice of wording to be concise enough to allow for a meaningful response
on my part.

except that

I do not agree with your conclusions.
The link you posted doesn't work.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on October 30, 2016, 11:49:07 PM
@Low-q

That link Is working now.  (it's the same old link)

I think you have brought up, good questions.  The ultimate answers to
which, I may have no answers ? 

I apologize that I am distracted these recent days. An old friend is soon to pass on.
He and the family, need a little support at this time.
.........................................

1. Assume I place a magnetic compass at a distance from an electrically energized coil, which is producing
a magnetic force.
At some distance (millimeters m) the compass needle deflects some amount (degrees d).

2. Assume I add an appropriate (magnetically soft and normally un-magnetized) iron core to center of
this energized coil.
At the distance (millimeters m) the compass will now deflect > (degrees d).
              or
the compass needle will now deflect (deflection d), but while compass needle is at
> (millimeters m)

I hope this some kind of a useful answer.

                     best wishes
                                floor


PS
I wold like to start a new topic, which if specifically for these info s, ideas, and theories,
while leaving this topic to be specifically for actual measurements, and examinations of the methods and devices
of those measurements ?
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on October 31, 2016, 08:38:06 PM
@Floor


Sorry to hear about your old friend. It's hard to keep a clear mind in hard times. My best whishes for you, your friend and his family.
---

Sounds like a good idea you have about the compass. I will do this experiment too. I think I will add a spring to the compass (Just made by a couple of neos), so it is possible to get an indication of the forces from some distance - with and without the iron core.
I will assume the compass will just smash into the iron core at close up measurements. If you don't mind I can post my findings in your new thread.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on November 01, 2016, 02:16:48 AM
The new topic is called

                Magnets, motion and measurement

                       floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on November 05, 2016, 09:13:14 PM
Please find the attached file "pasThru 2"

The design and method is given into the public domain.

It requires less work to position the rotating magnet between the
other magnets, than the work which can be done by the rotation.

                                     floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: ramset on November 18, 2016, 01:23:26 PM
Floor
Much respect and appreciation for your hard work [years] and selfless open source example, you inspire the replication/replicators

you mention a measurement thread above, can you post a Link ?


respectfully
Chet K

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on November 18, 2016, 05:42:37 PM
@Ramset


TD replications
Is for presentations of "TD" replications.



Magnets, motion and measurement
is for theory and practices  and so on.

Thanks.  Lets see if it all pans out.
                           floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on November 18, 2016, 05:56:36 PM
http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/

http://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/

                       floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 04, 2016, 06:26:01 AM
The TD (twist drive) is not a motor per say, in that it does not
produce a continuous rotation in the rotating magnet / magnets.

Neither does it give rise to an infinite linear motion.

However the TD machines are not simply / or only measuring devices.
They are useful machines, with useful mechanical out put, which can
is work done as either a liner motion or as work done as rotation.

The TD machine variations are functioning converters of either,
 linear motion to rotational motion or rotational motion to linear motion.

They are based upon 90 degree, near 90 degree, and reciprocating interactions
which by there very nature, arrest momentum.

These momentum arresting  interactions are (I believe) integral to its O.U functioning.

My measurements show that,  depending upon various magnet alignments, shapes
and motion interactions,  the TD can give more mechanical work out than is put in to it,
even when the work done to reset the movements to their starting positions is accounted for.

All of these designs, methods and devicements for the TD machines are given into the public domain.

   please find the attached PDF file which contains my most recent explanations and machine description.

                                                 floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 15, 2016, 07:54:07 PM
Some interaction descriptions.

   floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on December 15, 2016, 09:05:02 PM
Nice drawings Floor but this factor always got me stuck.
 1. closer stronger and
2. further weaker.
 3. two sides that have forces to be accounted for....

In my work I have found those three factors make things very difficult.
The Echlin thing is an example of that.


Keep trying with this in mind though.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 16, 2016, 03:20:05 AM
@Norman6538

Yep

It can get pretty confusing with all of the changes...  changing force of rotation with each degree,
changing force of sliding with each mm, changing direction of sliding, changing direction of rotation.

None of the forces are constant (they are increasing or decreasing) throughout the motions .

During the measuring process, there are 4 distinct inputs of work.  The largest
input (in reverse) generally being considered as the "output"

My goal, originally, was to have the RO..tation as out put and the SL..ider
as input,

The latest variation of the unit is to finally.... give this result.

Some energy could be stored as rotation, by use of a ratcheting
fly wheel as Webby suggests.

But energy spent on acceleration is already usable / used / can be used as
expenditure of momentum, in some of the TD motions.even though there are
reversing motions.

    regards
             floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 16, 2016, 03:20:47 PM
@ Lumen @ Luc

Do either of you feel ready to make some kind of interim summation
of your TD investigations ?

@all readers
                  Still looking for the error / s.              12/16/2016
..........................................................................
           below are
What to me, may be, unanswered feed back / critical input  to date.
and which was based upon examinations of

a. the measuring devices used
b. measurement procedures followed
c. mathematical  processes

and which also, are not already addressed and / or possibly incompletely
addressed.

     from

1. ConradElectro - measurements simply show the difference
in friction between RO and SL actions ?

2. Floor - Miss application of the force integration process in general ?

3. Floor- Unequal effect / application of the law of diminishing returns upon
RO as compared to SL ? 

4. Lumen - back side influence ?

5. DrJones - incomplete conversion of the actions into joules ?

6. GoToLuc - math error ?

7. Webby - ?

...................................................................
Floor is continuing testing, Lumen intends to do further testing,
GoToLuc's testing is also, as yet incomplete.
...................................................................
@Lumen  I would like to see a topic dedicated to your TD replication.
as "Lumen's TD replication" or the like, and maybe copy your data,
graphs, photos etc. to that new topic ?

                       regards
                              floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on December 17, 2016, 04:24:46 PM
@ Lumen @ Luc

Do either of you feel ready to make some kind of interim summation
of your TD investigations ?

                       regards
                              floor


Hi floor

I'm still experimenting with different magnet geometry before I start building the 2nd test device.

As a quick interim summation I would say that the TD effect is very interesting to say the least. Definitely worthy to build and study compared to anything else on this site.
My tests always seems to score a greater output torque compared to input torque. My results were shared in the TD Replication topic.

Hopefully I'll have the second test device built in a week or so. This one will take more time to build then the first test device as it will rotate and hopefully have enough output torque gain to loop back to operate the input.

Hope this helps to summarize where I'm at to this point

Kind regards

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 17, 2016, 11:48:11 PM
@luc

            Looking forward to it.

                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on December 18, 2016, 01:17:34 AM
More on the closer stronger - further weaker problem.
If you have a magnet that will lift a 1 lb weight 1/8 inch I call that
1 unit of work. But if you move that 1 lb to 1/4 inch it likely will not
lift the 1 lb weight but it might lift a 1/2 lb weight and that I call
a half unit of work and the way I get that extra half unit of work is to
use a variable lever that has greater leverage to lift that 1/2 lb weight
before it lifts the 1 lb weight. And that is done by making the weakness
of the magnet at the greater distance to be stronger with more leverage
at that spot.
Picture the variable lever to be a small lever with a fulcrum halfway from the center.
when the lever is tilted 45 degrees the leverage is closer to 1:1 because the
true leverage (variable lever) is the distance to the center measured by a plumb line but when it is horizontal the short end is at a leverage disadvantage.
 
That small extra advantage can push you into OU.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on December 18, 2016, 04:16:12 PM
Hi Norman,

I'm trying to understand where your post fits to what has been demonstrated. Care to be a little more specific as to who's test device you're referring to and then where you see what you've described fits.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 18, 2016, 08:05:30 PM
@norman6538

What Gotoluc is speaking to, is that we are trying to keep THIS topic and the "TD replications"
topic specifically for examination of the "TD unit".

Postings of other kinds of comments, which address magnets,
physics and measurement process and for more general magnet discussions
can be made @
                    http://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/   

I love to have more discussions with you upon these other, and more
general topics,  please re post your comment there.


Sorry, I've let this topic slip away from it's specific intended purpose. 

Gotoluc is doing a "TD" based presentation @

                             http://overunity.com/16987/td-replications/

I have asked Lumen "the other replication presenter" if he would make a new topic specific to
his replication (for the clarity and ease of his presentation) but he is still busy else where
at this time.

                    regards
                       floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 18, 2016, 08:07:50 PM
Please find the 2 attached files "PassThru 3-1.png" and "PassThru 3-2.png"

                  floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 18, 2016, 08:09:43 PM
XXXXX
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: gotoluc on December 19, 2016, 04:06:02 AM
WOW for sure floor!

you've just shared the magnet geometry I've been testing for the past 2 days which I was going to use in my 2nd test device since it is very effective in torque transfer.
So you came to the same conclusion without us even talking or sharing about it. Kind of ruined my surprise but that's okay ;)

Your introduction of a cylinder between the magnets is very interesting to say the least!... I had not thought about that.

Would a plain Iron cylinder work between the inner and outer magnet or are you suggesting it be a magnet as well?

You're really raising the bar now and giving much food for thought.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 20, 2016, 08:54:43 PM
@Gotoluc

A few confessions to make...

My goals

Trying to keep this patent free.. so some times I'm making quick
moves in posting... with the goal of beating any (some ones) who might
make a quick patent filing of the next step in the process...
and which they (silently perhaps, are seeing as well as we are).
I just think that MAYBE  this is too important to be held by just
one person ? (includes me).
........
Some times stating the basics, the obvious and so on.. and this may appear as if I am
talking down to others.  or "boasting my Knowledge".......but most people reading
our posts, have not and will not ever comment.     Very  many are as much a beginner
as am I.  I would like the subject to remain as "available to all",
what ever "level" they are on. 

I might tend to worry over this project overly much, while trying to remain objective
at the same time, (sorry).

I am learning a lot from the company I have been keeping here and appreciate this.
......................................................
Honestly I believe this adventure has been a product of a unity, or a kind of over unit.

While the feeling that this is my discovery has some appeal to me, I cant honestly
consider the discovery as being my own.  Seems more like that, there is a beehive mind
available when we are in tune.  But this hasn't diminished the joy of discovery.
........................

NEXT

Hadn't thought about just Iron for a cylinder. ....may be?

Three layers of just 2 magnets each, instead of cylinders,
would work out, I think ?

                   God rest ye merry gentlemen.
                    Joy of the season to us all.
                                 floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 21, 2016, 04:55:45 PM
         

              Non cylindrical magnets.

Cylinder magnets like those in the "PasThru 3-1" and "PasThru 3-2" drawings
might be a little bit hard to come by

 please find the attached file "PassThru 3-3. PNG"

                 floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 22, 2016, 01:28:19 PM
Hard to catch all the errors some times.

apologies

          floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 23, 2016, 11:24:02 PM
Maybe some people missed  this pdf file.

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg496816/#msg496816

« Reply #175 on: December 04, 2016, 06:26:01 AM »

                       "4 pole 45 deg .PDF"
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 25, 2016, 04:18:42 PM
Merry XMas
           Please find the 2 attached PNG files
                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 25, 2016, 04:25:10 PM
        Personal Message
from Lumen to floor

Re: (No subject)
 Sent to: Floor on: Today at 06:19:07 AM »

(in part)

"Hi floor,
At this time I remain somewhat skeptical even though the testing I have done appears to indicate some energy gain in the results.
I have been delayed from further testing by other tasks......"

   thanks Lumen
              floor
                   
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 27, 2016, 04:35:21 PM

Please find the attached file below "TheMatrixHasYourNeos" PDF

             Cheers
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 28, 2016, 06:54:01 AM
               SIMPLIFIED

                   Please find the attached file "PassThru 5. PDF"
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on December 29, 2016, 04:34:56 AM
PLease find below, a fix for the "PassThru 5" PDF.

            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on January 01, 2017, 02:53:42 PM
Floor could you describe your pass thru setup step by step? In the past I have many times gotten past the sticky spot but then when you take power off of a balanced system you are then stuck with not being able to reset and repeat the cycle. Permanent magnet power source would be easy if it were not for the reset/repeat sticky spot.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 01, 2017, 10:46:19 PM
Hi nornam

If you look closely at / study the 4 pole 45 degree TD PDF file

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/161475/

It becomes apparent why a magnet or magnets can be free from a net attracting force
(free from being stuck) when both an attracting force and a repelling force are acting with
equal effect.   

This neutrality of attraction,  is actually a neutrality of both attraction and repulsion, because
these two forces are in balance.

In the "4 pole 45 degree TD" file, this is  ... ONLY ... in terms of a specific line.
(the straight line of pull of the inner magnets from within the outer magnets).

By creating situations where in, there is a balance between the attracting and repelling forces,
one creates what is /are  in effect, a kind of magnetic shielding.  These effects are direction specific.
..................................................
It is also possible to make a magnet FREE TO ROTATE  (PassThru5.PNG file) even while it is under influence from another or several other magnets, (by creating a balance in the attracting and repelling forces).

In this situation, the magnitude of both the attracting forces and the repelling forces shift throughout
the rotation, but yet there can remain a balance between these mutually shifting  magnitudes.
......................................................
                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2017, 03:29:33 PM
@Norman6538

Here is a file with some details.

Please find the attached "PassThru 5 Detailed" PDF.



                  Thanks for the inquiries
                             regards
                                      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on January 02, 2017, 03:37:59 PM
Thanks Floor, that helps a little but I don't see sliding that magnet set away or back
in accomplishes anything other than pushing a matchbox car on a level table.
Enlighten me please.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2017, 04:30:58 PM
Ok Norman

Let me see if my Buddha scepter of enlightenment is working this morning.

When the mid magnets have been  removed from between the outer and inner magnets
           (this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces)

the inner magnet is compelled by magnetic forces to rotate
                   (to do work (output) as rotation by 180 degrees).

After this 180 degree rotation, the mid magnets can be returned to their first position of,
inbetween the inner and outer magnets.
            (as before, this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces)

With the mid magnets returned to their position of between the outer magnets and the inner magnet,
the inner magnet is free from magnetic forces which would compel it to rotate.
            (The inner magnet can now be manually rotated 180 degrees  with out doing work against
               magnetic forces, thus magically, is it returned to its starting position).  (Smile)

                       thanks for the inquiry
                               best wishes
                                        floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on January 02, 2017, 07:59:53 PM
Floor, that helps a lot but it would be best to label each one and then add that label
to the text to make it very clear. And then say if the rotation comes from attraction
or repel force rather than a generic "magnetic forces".  Its my understanding that
only 2 kinds of work can come from permanent magnets

1. attraction but then you have the sticky spot
2. repel but in order to have a repel force you first have to input
work ie. squeeze (unless you have a trick to achieve that) - which turns out to be the opposite of the sticky spot.

And you did clarify the reset back to the beginning for another repeat cycle.
Thanks again.

Norman

Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on January 02, 2017, 10:09:29 PM
I'm not trying to be a party killer here, but feel that I need to input some realism  ;)


Norman, you are right about your observations of magnets. These observations are the same for everyone, and magnets does not change how they work depending of how a person wants them to work. Magnets are magnets, and they give a damn about the engineer who have a vision of perpetual motion or excess energy from permanent magnets. No discredit to Floor - because curiosity and engineering moves the world forward, but also creates proves of failures so we don't repeat them over and over again.


However, to avoid the sticky spot, you also take away the pulling force that pulls the magnets together - to do work. The sticky spot must be there until it's not needed, and that's what happening in an electric motor. Except the electric motor change the polarity on one of the magnets so the magnets are repelling eachother when passing the sticky spot. But, I'm sure you already knew that.
How in h... is it possible to change the magnetism at the sticky spot without actually spending energy to remove the magnet from it, or twist the polarity into repulsion? The answer is pretty much given. It's not possible.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: citfta on January 02, 2017, 10:56:10 PM
Floor,

I have been studying your drawings and especially pdf 5.  I really think you have something that will work.  I have one small suggestion to make.  If you offset your inner magnets ( I guess you could call them the neutralizing magnets) so that as one center magnet is forced to rotate the other center magnet on the other end of the shaft could be reset then I think you would have a working device.  All you should need for input power would be a small motor to rotate a disc with the neutralizing magnets on it.  As you have shown in your pdf there should be almost no drag or force against the inner magnets as they go between the outer and center magnets.

You and Luc are doing some great work!  Thanks for sharing your results.

Carroll
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2017, 11:03:13 PM
@Norman6538

following your suggestions... clarifying and correcting the texts

                        Magnets .......   C  A  E  B  D

When the mid magnets (A, B) have been removed from between the outer magnets (C, D)
             (this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
               and / or magnets C,D)

the inner magnet (E) is compelled by magnetic forces to rotate
                  (both the attracting and the repelling forces between magnets (C, D) and magnet (E)
                     are combined to do work (output) as rotation of magnet (E) by 180 degrees).

After this 180 degree rotation, the mid magnets (A, B) can be returned to their first position of,
in between the inner (E) and outer magnets (C, D).
        (as before, this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
         and / or magnets C,D ).

With the mid magnets (A, B) returned to their position of between the outer magnets (C,D)and the inner magnet (E), the inner magnet (E) is free from  ALL magnetic forces which would compel it to      rotate.
       (the inner magnet (E) can now be manually rotated 180 degrees with out doing work against
             magnetic forces from magnets A,B  and / or magnets C,D ).

                           C  A  E  B  D

             Thanks Norman your observation are appreciated.
                              floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2017, 11:12:49 PM
@citfta

       Thanks for the suggestion.
           GotoLuc is really do a good job I think.
                           regards
                            floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 02, 2017, 11:22:43 PM
@LowQ

  Glad to see you back.

In general, generalizations about what "is or is not possible" with magnets
are off topic here.

Please be specific as to how your ideas apply precisely to the devices described in this topic.
                                                   or       
Pleaae post any more general discussion ideas, in the "magnets motion and measurements"
topic. 

                               regards
                                      floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: shylo on January 02, 2017, 11:41:37 PM
Or just use the moving magnets to influence coils that charge caps ,and then dump the caps to get by the sticky spot.
I don't think anything is impossible.
artv

I'm not trying to be a party killer here, but feel that I need to input some realism  ;)


Norman, you are right about your observations of magnets. These observations are the same for everyone, and magnets does not change how they work depending of how a person wants them to work. Magnets are magnets, and they give a damn about the engineer who have a vision of perpetual motion or excess energy from permanent magnets. No discredit to Floor - because curiosity and engineering moves the world forward, but also creates proves of failures so we don't repeat them over and over again.


However, to avoid the sticky spot, you also take away the pulling force that pulls the magnets together - to do work. The sticky spot must be there until it's not needed, and that's what happening in an electric motor. Except the electric motor change the polarity on one of the magnets so the magnets are repelling eachother when passing the sticky spot. But, I'm sure you already knew that.
How in h... is it possible to change the magnetism at the sticky spot without actually spending energy to remove the magnet from it, or twist the polarity into repulsion? The answer is pretty much given. It's not possible.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on January 03, 2017, 12:55:06 AM

 Right on Floor. Its getting very clear now.
I'm still not clear on how that twist does work and then gets reset...
I'll work more at understanding that.
Norman

@Norman6538

following your suggestions... clarifying and correcting the texts

                        Magnets .......   C  A  E  B  D

When the mid magnets (A, B) have been removed from between the outer magnets (C, D)
             (this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
               and / or magnets C,D)

the inner magnet (E) is compelled by magnetic forces to rotate
                  (both the attracting and the repelling forces between magnets (C, D) and magnet (E)
                     are combined to do work (output) as rotation of magnet (E) by 180 degrees).

After this 180 degree rotation, the mid magnets (A, B) can be returned to their first position of,
in between the inner (E) and outer magnets (C, D).
        (as before, this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
         and / or magnets C,D ).

With the mid magnets (A, B) returned to their position of between the outer magnets (C,D)and the inner magnet (E), the inner magnet (E) is free from  ALL magnetic forces which would compel it to      rotate.
       (the inner magnet (E) can now be manually rotated 180 degrees with out doing work against
             magnetic forces from magnets A,B  and / or magnets C,D ).

                           C  A  E  B  D

             Thanks Norman your observation are appreciated.
                              floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: norman6538 on January 03, 2017, 04:26:31 AM
As I was going to sleep I got it Floor.
my labels will be mags 1-5 left to right.
r = repel a = attract and NS north south poles.

1(NS) r 2(SN) a 3(SN) r 4(NS) a 5(NS)
then 2 and 4 drop down leaving 3 like this

1(NS) r               3(SN)             r 5(NS)

so 3 will twist from the 2 r repel forces on both sides BUT
notice the further weaker problem.......

then we have


1(NS) a               3(NS)             a 5(NS)

and we lift/push 2,4 back in place giving


1(NS) r 2(SN) r 3(NS) a 4(NS) a 5(NS)

so we can fully reset 3 with a twist and be ready for
another cycle...

VERY  CLEVER BUT FURTHER WEAKER is the gotcha...

The real story will be in the measurements which must include
the work required for the 2/4 drop and lift back and the 1 twist to reset.

Norman
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 03, 2017, 04:55:25 PM
More .............

Please find the 4 attached png files

              floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on January 03, 2017, 05:06:25 PM
Or just use the moving magnets to influence coils that charge caps ,and then dump the caps to get by the sticky spot.
I don't think anything is impossible.
artv
You can charge capacitors using magnets and coils. In general a generator that deliver energy into capacitors. The energy needed to do this is given from the capacitance and the voltage. Considering the resistance in the coil, the loss from eddy currents, and magnetic hysteresis, you must add more energ to the rotor, than the energy you put into the capacitor. This loss due to complexity into the system will lower the efficiency compared to not using capacitors at all.


@Floor
You are right about the topic. No need to counter fight the ideas. I will stop doing that now, and whish you good luck instead ;-)
I would however strongly recommend that you build it to see how it really works. Theories remains theories as long they are not tested in real life. Only then you can accept the theory as right or false.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 03, 2017, 08:18:34 PM
@LowQ

See the photos at

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg489549/#msg489549

Give me some real questions / ideas, related to the TD unit and I will be glad to chat.

                              regards
                                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on January 03, 2017, 08:37:03 PM
@LowQ

See the photos at

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg489549/#msg489549 (http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg489549/#msg489549)

Give me some real questions / ideas, related to the TD unit and I will be glad to chat.

                              regards
                                    floor
Oh, sorry. I have been watching this thread before, but totally forgot what it was all about. So I totally missed out that you actually have built and built all the time. Keep it up. Nice to see that someone actualy is building something :-)


I have no ideas or questions to add this far.


Vidar
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 04, 2017, 09:21:53 PM
@All interested

I'm not very concerned that the correct work formulas have not been applied
up to this point, of if they continue to be.

But here is a description of a method of calculating joules
when the force applied changes non uniformly over distance.

              cheers
                    floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: lumen on January 05, 2017, 01:00:48 AM
@floor

I changed my testing setup to be more ridgid and altered the process order of recording the data along with a new digital force guage and now the findings are closer to what I expected.
The tests that once indicated a gain of over 13% were repeated along with several other interactions that I thought would indicate a path of gain and at this time nothing has shown a gain of over 3% and in fact the test results varied from about +2.5% to a -2.5% depending on the test.
To me, the results indicate no gain with any path I have tested so far.
Next I plan to setup for the TD data collection and hope the data indicates a different result.
I will be using neo's which may have a different result than your findings with ceramic magnets, but it's a good place to start.



Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 05, 2017, 02:04:57 AM
@Webby

It is  0.27925  mm of weight travel per degree on my device.

        thanks

Also I reworked the first page of my last PNG file post (two pages)  I think it's
statemennt is more clearly made now.  I could use  feed back on it.
The reworked version of page 1 is posted below.
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 05, 2017, 02:15:19 AM
@Lumen

wow sounds fantastic !
Thanks for the up date. 

Would you mind starting / dedicating a new topic to your
next test sets ?

Lumens TD test or name it as you like ?

                  regards
                       floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Floor on January 05, 2017, 02:19:29 AM
@Norman6538

Thanks Norman.

Lets keep figureing it out.

                 floor
Title: Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
Post by: Low-Q on January 05, 2017, 07:04:35 AM
@floor

I changed my testing setup to be more ridgid and altered the process order of recording the data along with a new digital force guage and now the findings are closer to what I expected.
The tests that once indicated a gain of over 13% were repeated along with several other interactions that I thought would indicate a path of gain and at this time nothing has shown a gain of over 3% and in fact the test results varied from about +2.5% to a -2.5% depending on the test.
To me, the results indicate no gain with any path I have tested so far.
Next I plan to setup for the TD data collection and hope the data indicates a different result.
I will be using neo's which may have a different result than your findings with ceramic magnets, but it's a good place to start.
+/- 2.5% sounds reasonable. That just means the measurements are made properly, and typical output is in average 0 - as expected with a closed loop system.


Vidar