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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 100066 times)

Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #195 on: December 29, 2016, 04:34:56 AM »
PLease find below, a fix for the "PassThru 5" PDF.

            floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #196 on: January 01, 2017, 02:53:42 PM »
Floor could you describe your pass thru setup step by step? In the past I have many times gotten past the sticky spot but then when you take power off of a balanced system you are then stuck with not being able to reset and repeat the cycle. Permanent magnet power source would be easy if it were not for the reset/repeat sticky spot.

Norman

Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #197 on: January 01, 2017, 10:46:19 PM »
Hi nornam

If you look closely at / study the 4 pole 45 degree TD PDF file

http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/161475/

It becomes apparent why a magnet or magnets can be free from a net attracting force
(free from being stuck) when both an attracting force and a repelling force are acting with
equal effect.   

This neutrality of attraction,  is actually a neutrality of both attraction and repulsion, because
these two forces are in balance.

In the "4 pole 45 degree TD" file, this is  ... ONLY ... in terms of a specific line.
(the straight line of pull of the inner magnets from within the outer magnets).

By creating situations where in, there is a balance between the attracting and repelling forces,
one creates what is /are  in effect, a kind of magnetic shielding.  These effects are direction specific.
..................................................
It is also possible to make a magnet FREE TO ROTATE  (PassThru5.PNG file) even while it is under influence from another or several other magnets, (by creating a balance in the attracting and repelling forces).

In this situation, the magnitude of both the attracting forces and the repelling forces shift throughout
the rotation, but yet there can remain a balance between these mutually shifting  magnitudes.
......................................................
                    floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #198 on: January 02, 2017, 03:29:33 PM »
@Norman6538

Here is a file with some details.

Please find the attached "PassThru 5 Detailed" PDF.



                  Thanks for the inquiries
                             regards
                                      floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #199 on: January 02, 2017, 03:37:59 PM »
Thanks Floor, that helps a little but I don't see sliding that magnet set away or back
in accomplishes anything other than pushing a matchbox car on a level table.
Enlighten me please.

Norman

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #200 on: January 02, 2017, 04:30:58 PM »
Ok Norman

Let me see if my Buddha scepter of enlightenment is working this morning.

When the mid magnets have been  removed from between the outer and inner magnets
           (this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces)

the inner magnet is compelled by magnetic forces to rotate
                   (to do work (output) as rotation by 180 degrees).

After this 180 degree rotation, the mid magnets can be returned to their first position of,
inbetween the inner and outer magnets.
            (as before, this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces)

With the mid magnets returned to their position of between the outer magnets and the inner magnet,
the inner magnet is free from magnetic forces which would compel it to rotate.
            (The inner magnet can now be manually rotated 180 degrees  with out doing work against
               magnetic forces, thus magically, is it returned to its starting position).  (Smile)

                       thanks for the inquiry
                               best wishes
                                        floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #201 on: January 02, 2017, 07:59:53 PM »
Floor, that helps a lot but it would be best to label each one and then add that label
to the text to make it very clear. And then say if the rotation comes from attraction
or repel force rather than a generic "magnetic forces".  Its my understanding that
only 2 kinds of work can come from permanent magnets

1. attraction but then you have the sticky spot
2. repel but in order to have a repel force you first have to input
work ie. squeeze (unless you have a trick to achieve that) - which turns out to be the opposite of the sticky spot.

And you did clarify the reset back to the beginning for another repeat cycle.
Thanks again.

Norman


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #202 on: January 02, 2017, 10:09:29 PM »
I'm not trying to be a party killer here, but feel that I need to input some realism  ;)


Norman, you are right about your observations of magnets. These observations are the same for everyone, and magnets does not change how they work depending of how a person wants them to work. Magnets are magnets, and they give a damn about the engineer who have a vision of perpetual motion or excess energy from permanent magnets. No discredit to Floor - because curiosity and engineering moves the world forward, but also creates proves of failures so we don't repeat them over and over again.


However, to avoid the sticky spot, you also take away the pulling force that pulls the magnets together - to do work. The sticky spot must be there until it's not needed, and that's what happening in an electric motor. Except the electric motor change the polarity on one of the magnets so the magnets are repelling eachother when passing the sticky spot. But, I'm sure you already knew that.
How in h... is it possible to change the magnetism at the sticky spot without actually spending energy to remove the magnet from it, or twist the polarity into repulsion? The answer is pretty much given. It's not possible.


Vidar

Offline citfta

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #203 on: January 02, 2017, 10:56:10 PM »
Floor,

I have been studying your drawings and especially pdf 5.  I really think you have something that will work.  I have one small suggestion to make.  If you offset your inner magnets ( I guess you could call them the neutralizing magnets) so that as one center magnet is forced to rotate the other center magnet on the other end of the shaft could be reset then I think you would have a working device.  All you should need for input power would be a small motor to rotate a disc with the neutralizing magnets on it.  As you have shown in your pdf there should be almost no drag or force against the inner magnets as they go between the outer and center magnets.

You and Luc are doing some great work!  Thanks for sharing your results.

Carroll

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #204 on: January 02, 2017, 11:03:13 PM »
@Norman6538

following your suggestions... clarifying and correcting the texts

                        Magnets .......   C  A  E  B  D

When the mid magnets (A, B) have been removed from between the outer magnets (C, D)
             (this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
               and / or magnets C,D)

the inner magnet (E) is compelled by magnetic forces to rotate
                  (both the attracting and the repelling forces between magnets (C, D) and magnet (E)
                     are combined to do work (output) as rotation of magnet (E) by 180 degrees).

After this 180 degree rotation, the mid magnets (A, B) can be returned to their first position of,
in between the inner (E) and outer magnets (C, D).
        (as before, this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
         and / or magnets C,D ).

With the mid magnets (A, B) returned to their position of between the outer magnets (C,D)and the inner magnet (E), the inner magnet (E) is free from  ALL magnetic forces which would compel it to      rotate.
       (the inner magnet (E) can now be manually rotated 180 degrees with out doing work against
             magnetic forces from magnets A,B  and / or magnets C,D ).

                           C  A  E  B  D

             Thanks Norman your observations are appreciated.
                              floor
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 08:21:11 PM by Floor »

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #205 on: January 02, 2017, 11:12:49 PM »
@citfta

       Thanks for the suggestion.
           GotoLuc is really doing a good job I think.
                           regards
                            floor
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 08:21:56 PM by Floor »

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #206 on: January 02, 2017, 11:22:43 PM »
@LowQ

  Glad to see you back.

In general, generalizations about what "is or is not possible" with magnets
are off topic here.

Please be specific as to how your ideas apply precisely to the devices described in this topic.
                                                   or       
Pleaae post any more general discussion ideas, in the "magnets motion and measurements"
topic. 

                               regards
                                      floor

Offline shylo

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  • Posts: 540
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #207 on: January 02, 2017, 11:41:37 PM »
Or just use the moving magnets to influence coils that charge caps ,and then dump the caps to get by the sticky spot.
I don't think anything is impossible.
artv

I'm not trying to be a party killer here, but feel that I need to input some realism  ;)


Norman, you are right about your observations of magnets. These observations are the same for everyone, and magnets does not change how they work depending of how a person wants them to work. Magnets are magnets, and they give a damn about the engineer who have a vision of perpetual motion or excess energy from permanent magnets. No discredit to Floor - because curiosity and engineering moves the world forward, but also creates proves of failures so we don't repeat them over and over again.


However, to avoid the sticky spot, you also take away the pulling force that pulls the magnets together - to do work. The sticky spot must be there until it's not needed, and that's what happening in an electric motor. Except the electric motor change the polarity on one of the magnets so the magnets are repelling eachother when passing the sticky spot. But, I'm sure you already knew that.
How in h... is it possible to change the magnetism at the sticky spot without actually spending energy to remove the magnet from it, or twist the polarity into repulsion? The answer is pretty much given. It's not possible.


Vidar

Offline norman6538

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #208 on: January 03, 2017, 12:55:06 AM »

 Right on Floor. Its getting very clear now.
I'm still not clear on how that twist does work and then gets reset...
I'll work more at understanding that.
Norman

@Norman6538

following your suggestions... clarifying and correcting the texts

                        Magnets .......   C  A  E  B  D

When the mid magnets (A, B) have been removed from between the outer magnets (C, D)
             (this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
               and / or magnets C,D)

the inner magnet (E) is compelled by magnetic forces to rotate
                  (both the attracting and the repelling forces between magnets (C, D) and magnet (E)
                     are combined to do work (output) as rotation of magnet (E) by 180 degrees).

After this 180 degree rotation, the mid magnets (A, B) can be returned to their first position of,
in between the inner (E) and outer magnets (C, D).
        (as before, this can be done, with out doing work against magnetic forces from magnets A,B
         and / or magnets C,D ).

With the mid magnets (A, B) returned to their position of between the outer magnets (C,D)and the inner magnet (E), the inner magnet (E) is free from  ALL magnetic forces which would compel it to      rotate.
       (the inner magnet (E) can now be manually rotated 180 degrees with out doing work against
             magnetic forces from magnets A,B  and / or magnets C,D ).

                           C  A  E  B  D

             Thanks Norman your observation are appreciated.
                              floor

Offline norman6538

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #209 on: January 03, 2017, 04:26:31 AM »
As I was going to sleep I got it Floor.
my labels will be mags 1-5 left to right.
r = repel a = attract and NS north south poles.

1(NS) r 2(SN) a 3(SN) r 4(NS) a 5(NS)
then 2 and 4 drop down leaving 3 like this

1(NS) r               3(SN)             r 5(NS)

so 3 will twist from the 2 r repel forces on both sides BUT
notice the further weaker problem.......

then we have


1(NS) a               3(NS)             a 5(NS)

and we lift/push 2,4 back in place giving


1(NS) r 2(SN) r 3(NS) a 4(NS) a 5(NS)

so we can fully reset 3 with a twist and be ready for
another cycle...

VERY  CLEVER BUT FURTHER WEAKER is the gotcha...

The real story will be in the measurements which must include
the work required for the 2/4 drop and lift back and the 1 twist to reset.

Norman