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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 68218 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #135 on: October 02, 2016, 02:57:54 AM »
@Lumen

See the questions on the Picture Below.

I was looking at my RO unit in terms of how much effort for me to
mount a ceramic magnet in "Lumen's" face to face alignment. 
I would have to replace the RO magnet - mount with something more
universal as well.

                   floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #135 on: October 02, 2016, 02:57:54 AM »

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #136 on: October 02, 2016, 03:35:30 AM »
@floor

You are correct,that is exactly how it is setup.
I am making some small changes because the next magnets I'll be testing are 1/4 x 1/2 x 2.00 and are very strong.
I will test them face to face and with parallel poles to see what difference might exist.

There is one last pair that I would like to test but these are 1/2 x 1 x 2 and are super strong and I need to make sure they don't get loose!
The aluminum foil tape is ok for thin magnets with 20Lbs pull but 60Lbs or better......Humm

It would be interesting to see if output remains proportional over all the sets.



Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #137 on: October 02, 2016, 04:28:05 PM »
@Lumen

more data, more good

                   floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #137 on: October 02, 2016, 04:28:05 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #138 on: October 02, 2016, 10:26:53 PM »
Collecting data can be helpful but I'm wondering about the math.
Because magnets are not a linear force is it reasonable to assume that using a linear calculation like averaging is in fact accurate.

It just seems that finding results of 12% and then 13.5% for a calculation that should in fact be equal ( 0% OU), appears it could be an error in the math process.
Is there anyone good at math that can verify the data indicates an actual gain?

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #139 on: October 03, 2016, 03:00:07 PM »
CORRECTIONS

In reference to my last published measurement sets...

I have stated that RO is 173 % greater than SL ... a transposition error, a miswording and WRONG.
I have stated that SL is 173 % greater than RO... a  miss-wording error and WRONG.
Neither was correct.
 
rather
SL was 173 % of RO
     and
SL was 73 % greater than RO
                        floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #139 on: October 03, 2016, 03:00:07 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #140 on: October 03, 2016, 04:02:01 PM »
@ Lumen

QUOTE FROM Lumen
"appears it could be an error in the math process. Is there anyone good at math that
can verify the data indicates an actual gain?"  END QUOTE

I proceeded by measuring mm of fall and grams of weight. with no conversions
to joules.  The RATIOS of the (products of RO) to the (products of SL) will be the same
as the ratios of a conversion to (joules RO) to (joules SL).

Example 1...  A x B   is to  C x D  has the same ratio as  (A x B) x F is to  (C x D) x F.

In my last presented  measurement sets.  I dived the products of
force and displacement (work RO) by 2... but also I dived the products
of force and displacement (work SL)  by 2. Doesn't change a thing
in terms of the ratio of work in to work out, but is does misstate both
the work in and the work out by 1/2.
..............................
Work = force times displacement
           specifically
Joules of work = newtons of force times meters of displacement.
..............................
Your motions that are rotational, can be translated into
their linear equivalents.  Lots of math, but simple math.
.......................
Each of your (little measurements) of force times displacement is a
complete statement of work done. 

The totals for all of the little RO works done is simply the total
work done on RO.

The totals for all of the little linear SL works done is simply the total
work done on SL.

Averaging isn't  the way I proceeded,  but do it your own way.
............................
I really don't mind and even appreciate it if others correct  my errors.  I very much so
oppose it when this become a put down game.

I think we need to check each others work / math / methods and so on,
and to simply discuss it   No big deal..

              regards
                       Floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2016, 06:02:37 PM »
@ Lumen

   some observations

In your photo of your RO setup..

It looks like you have to re-position the force gauge after
every  degree or two of rotation ?  this could account for
an apparent OU result ?

A rack and pinon gear would translate the rotational
to a linear motion with a consistant margin of error ?

or a nodding donky set up and a PULLING force measurement
could be used... but then chain / or string,  stretch could become
problematic ?


       regards
        floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2016, 06:02:37 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2016, 06:28:38 PM »
@ Lumen

   some observations

In your photo of your RO setup..

It looks like you have to re-position the force gauge after
every  degree or two of rotation ?  this could account for
an apparent OU result ?

A rack and pinon gear would translate the rotational
to a linear motion with a consistant margin of error ?

or a nodding donky set up and a PULLING force measurement
could be used... but then chain / or string,  stretch could become
problematic ?


       regards
        floor

The rotary table rotates everything as a single unit.
There are bearings inside which the magnet mounts to, but they don't turn because the scale holds it stationary measuring only the force applied.
The entire setup is then rotated against the stationary SL magnet using whatever steps desired.

So the scale never needs to be moved because it rotates with the setup on the rotary table measuring the forces applied from a stationary external magnet (SL).
This way the scale always remains at 90 degrees to the force arm so the reading is not affected by a changing angle on the arm.

As far as the math?
I understand the force distance formula for work but what the problem amounts to exactly is what force?
In my case the distance is always the same so that part is easy. The force is at points and the change between any two points is not linear.
So thinking that the force to use is the average of two points over that distance could only be close but not exact, and if not exact, what could the error be?

The method I use is (average of 17 points) * 16 spaces = total force over .800 inch travel which is the same over all tests.

Just looking for an explanation for the energy gain that should not exist.



Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #143 on: October 04, 2016, 12:14:56 AM »
Another thought is that these tests are only a comparison of the work done in making moves between two magnets that should amount to zero but do not and that even with a small percent of error in the math, the same error would exist on all measurements and would have no real effect on the result.

If I ran the same tests using two round magnet and used the same method to find excess energy then the result would in fact show zero gain.

So it is then the magnet shape that impacts the result.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #143 on: October 04, 2016, 12:14:56 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #144 on: October 04, 2016, 03:29:25 AM »
@ lumen

I'm commited else where for the next 4 days.

I think we are still on the same page.

We need to be certain of  the validity of our processes and  methods,
both meachanically and mathematically, or else change them.
I'm certain that in either case we can do so.

                     later
                         floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #145 on: October 04, 2016, 05:33:45 AM »
@floor
No problem, I have a few things to do also before setting up this next test.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #145 on: October 04, 2016, 05:33:45 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #146 on: October 05, 2016, 03:45:55 PM »
Collecting data can be helpful but I'm wondering about the math.
Because magnets are not a linear force is it reasonable to assume that using a linear calculation like averaging is in fact accurate.

It just seems that finding results of 12% and then 13.5% for a calculation that should in fact be equal ( 0% OU), appears it could be an error in the math process.
Is there anyone good at math that can verify the data indicates an actual gain?
Math never makes mistakes. It is the person who do them who fails. That is the platform we humans must build our experiences on.


If you want reliable measurements, you must take a high number of samples. Especially when the magnets are very close to eachother. A 1mm resolution sample when the magnets are 10mm apart is 100 times more accurate than the sample made 1mm apart. So you have to scale down the sample rate the closer the magnets are to each other. Maybe 0.1mm resolution when they are close, and 1mm resolution further apart.


It is easy to miss out major force or torque readings when you have a coarse sample rate.


If the math proves over unity, it is the samples that are wrong. Calculating an accurate result is very time consuming, but not actually rocket science. I would say closer to primary school math. The trick is to not miss out samples that have a major effect on the result.


Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #147 on: October 06, 2016, 06:41:48 PM »
@ Vidar

In the next two tests I have planned, I will take many more data points to remove any question of high angle transitions that could have been missed.

A graph of the last test data (not yet posted) does not show any indication of rapid transitions that could have amounted to 13.5% so I am reasonably convinced that there is something going on that could be useful in the design of a real operating machine.

Once I find the point of maximum attainable gain I plan to proceed to build a machine that can function within those parameters.
I still need to test floor's configuration because he states an even higher gain than what I have seen.


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #148 on: October 06, 2016, 09:59:44 PM »
@ lumen


Looking forward to see the results. I hope you pull this one off :)

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #149 on: October 07, 2016, 10:03:51 PM »
These are the results of the second test that I wasn't going to post but just in case someone is interested.
The magnets used were 1/8 x 1 x 2.

In the test the magnets are pushed together against the large faces but rotated 90 degrees to each other.
At zero distance the gap was .1 between the magnets and then they are rotated to be parallel and in full repulsion.
They are then moved apart at the exit stroke which seems to provide 13.5% more work than the other two mavements.

The step size is .05 inch and is the same in all the steps even the rotation which is shown as degrees at a force radius of .5093 and 5.625 degree steps is making a movement of .05 inch.

All of the next tests will have a reduced step of .01 inch to provide assurance of it's accuracy.


 

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