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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 68362 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2016, 08:34:44 PM »
@Low-Q

For starters, and for verification purposes, inexspensive ceramic magnets shoulkd be used.
Also, the magnets ,should be as nearly identicle to those used in my device as is possible.
The magnets I have used were aboyt $ 2 (US).

I have been developing an easy to build design, and I'll let you know as that design progresses.

             floor
Cheap magnets are great for starters. However, all the friction you might have in the system is like noise. A weak signal covered by noise, is very hard to analyze correctly. If you use stronger magnets, the experiment is easier to analyze as you suppress the noise using a stronger "signal".
As a temporary solution, you might even use electromagnets running on AC to generate a stronger magnetic field.
I know AC will change polarity 50 or 60 times per second, but the same happens to both electro magnets at the same time.
So the experiment would probably be a better success in terms of analyzing.


Vidar

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2016, 08:34:44 PM »

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2016, 11:43:41 PM »
Hi Vidar

I used neo's 1/8 x 1/2 x 1-1/2 in the simulator because I have these exact magnets to do the real test.
I also think the reason for the gain is understandable in both floor's design and the way I used them which is a bit different.

Take the case of floor's design in which the poles are on the sides and when rotated parallel both poles are pushing. But when they come together as a cross at 90 degrees to each other, there is almost no repulsion.

The cause of the gain is because the cross position allows a connection of the poles that assist the rotation towards the repelling position even though it's in fact resisting that direction and would move away into the aligned attract position, there is still an assist that is easily seen in FEMM field lines.

This assist allows the magnets to rotate into position with less energy. In floor's layout the assist only helps up to about 30 degrees from the parallel or full repelling position because the thickness of the magnets prevent further assisting.

Of course this is only a theory but there is some logic to it once you see it.
 

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2016, 02:23:43 AM »
@Lumen / vidar

Really, I'd like to just get out of the way of the project at this point, and see what others come up with.
Except that I also would like to see precise measurements and evaluations, that  can be compared meaningfully to my own.

But, this is all in the public domain.. . and of course people can do what ever it is they prefer to with it.

I'm sure that there are a large number of variations in magnet shape and strength worth checking out.

A week ago, I formed a u shaped magnet configuration on the slider side, by clamping 3 magnets in place of just the one.  The RO magnet fit between 2 of the magnets and butted up to the third one as in " normal"  operation.  This radically changed the interactions.

It would be nice to seeing a spin off topic, just for the purpose of those many variations. 

But, I what I would really like to see under this topic, are replications, which are of similar enough  interactions, that hey could will validate  the present design.  I hope people can understand why I think this is important at this point.  While keeping these things in mind, it's all good and I say, lets go for it.

                        best wishes
                                floor


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2016, 02:23:43 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2016, 03:33:10 AM »
Hi Floor,


thanks for the newer data and details.


My thinking cap is on to try to cum up with a simple gotoluc build ;)


I found this video that looks to be related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY



If you have any ideas drawn up that you would share, I may be able to think of other possibilities.



Thanks for sharing


Luc

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2016, 05:37:56 AM »
Hi Floor,


thanks for the newer data and details.


My thinking cap is on to try to cum up with a simple gotoluc build ;)


I found this video that looks to be related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY



If you have any ideas drawn up that you would share, I may be able to think of other possibilities.



Thanks for sharing


Luc

That is some overly complicated device but it is similar in operation.
I think it would be best to start with something simple to prove a working concept.

Some theory as to how the energy is gained would be helpful since it would be required to quickly improve the output.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2016, 05:37:56 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #95 on: September 20, 2016, 03:20:39 PM »
Qoute from Luc  "I found this video that looks to be related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdugDt7KoYY" END QUOTE

Awsome... looks like the twist drive to the T,  except that the T stands for Torque...pun intended 

Also, it looks like supporing eveidence is starting to pile up.

so cool.

                   thanks all
                             floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2016, 04:20:39 PM »
How much energy is required to turn magnet 3 in that video?
If both magnets are rectangular, they would  be hard to turn 90 degrees of each other.
I know about the slide-force-part, and that require less force to do, but what about the displacement needed to slide them apart?
Would the displacement needed for sliding be 4 times the displacement needed to pull the magnets directly apart?


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2016, 04:20:39 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2016, 05:28:50 PM »
How much energy is required to turn magnet 3 in that video?
If both magnets are rectangular, they would  be hard to turn 90 degrees of each other.
I know about the slide-force-part, and that require less force to do, but what about the displacement needed to slide them apart?
Would the displacement needed for sliding be 4 times the displacement needed to pull the magnets directly apart?


Vidar

I'm sure it depends on the shape of the magnets but you can bet it's not the 25% as he is claiming.
From his sketches I would think it would be closer to 80-90%.

With all the moving parts in that design I'm sure any gain would be quickly lost to friction.

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #98 on: September 21, 2016, 02:07:24 AM »
@GoToLuc

Thanks, I'm thinking on /  looking for some simple design, but pretty much stumped / busy at  present.

@ Lumen and Low-Q

I also think the mechanical linkage design, in the Jessie R. Johnson video would be a very ineffective one,

But also I think the sketch was probably just intended to illustrate the idea of / necessity of... mechanical
linkage and timing of RO and SL in order to get cyclic operation.

             floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #98 on: September 21, 2016, 02:07:24 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #99 on: September 21, 2016, 04:03:08 AM »
@GoToLuc

Thanks, I'm thinking on /  looking for some simple design, but pretty much stumped / busy at  present.

@ Lumen and Low-Q

I also think the mechanical linkage design, in the Jessie R. Johnson video would be a very ineffective one,

But also I think the sketch was probably just intended to illustrate the idea of / necessity of... mechanical
linkage and timing of RO and SL in order to get cyclic operation.


             floor

I'm thinking more along the line of the Steorn nodding donkey!
Is it possible that they really did have something and couldn't release it because it wasn't theirs?

I'm setting up now to do some actual measurements on real magnets both to see how close the results match the simulator and to collect some real data before building anything.



Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #100 on: September 21, 2016, 01:47:18 PM »
@gotoluc

Lumens nodding donkey idea sounds to me like a good starting place
for a simple desigh ?

@Low-Q
Are you looking into electro magnet design variations ?  see the design
posted below

            best wishes
                    floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #100 on: September 21, 2016, 01:47:18 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #101 on: September 22, 2016, 07:35:29 PM »
My test measurements on the real magnets produced a gain of only 12%.
That is about half of what the simulation suggested and is what I consider to be within error limits where there may actually be no gain at all.

My scale was not accurate enough to detect the weaker forces of the small magnets with a resolution of only 10 grams and so may possibly account for some error.
The good news is that it does indicate a possible gain.



Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #102 on: September 22, 2016, 09:16:52 PM »
@Lumen

Can you give us details.
 
Which magnets were used.. type and dimensions.
What were the magnet orientations.
What degrees of rotation for RO magnet from parallel to 90 off.
SL maximum and minimum distances from SL were.
graphs and so on.


                            Thanks floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #103 on: September 23, 2016, 12:06:40 AM »
@Lumen

Can you give us details.
 
Which magnets were used.. type and dimensions.
What were the magnet orientations.
What degrees of rotation for RO magnet from parallel to 90 off.
SL maximum and minimum distances from SL were.
graphs and so on.


                            Thanks floor

I will put it together so it's easy to understand, plus it would be good if someone else went through the data and calculated the result also to make sure us old guys didn't forget something.  :o

I found another scale that would work really well with collecting forces on my CNC machine.
It can take readings and save the data using an external input switch.
So I could have the machine make moves and it could instruct the scale when to save the data.
That means that I could map all data points over the RO rotation at every step/distance along the SL.
Wow, that kind of gives me a headache.


Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2016, 02:05:25 AM »
@lumen

Believe me, I understand that these measurements sets turn into a lot of numbers.
My measurements  have all been done by hand.
Do what you can as you can.

But please let us know the basics at this point 
12% ... understood.

But which magnet alignments were they ?

Lumens X  ie pole to pole ?
       or
floors X   ie Polar edges to Polar edges ?

                 thanks
                      floor

 

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