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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 96909 times)

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2016, 03:42:05 PM »
Below are some photos of the rotating (RO) module as of
yesterday's progress with the build.  The biggest parts of
the build are now completed.

                    floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2016, 02:45:55 AM »
During the 8,890 views of this topic's current incarnation, there have been no suggestions, recommendations and / or input on how one might best proceed.  No critical reviews given due to an examination of the materials . No examination of and reporting of errors found within the measurement process or the graphs or of the mathematical processes used to determine the experiments outcome.

There was ONE single suggestion that the input and the output conditions during the measurements MUST be different.  While this suggestion is a very good / likely answer to the problem of the impossible having been done. This was not I think, a conclusion reached through an examination of the materials.  It was perhaps rather the automatic response of a conditioned mind to the probability of,  easy pickens.  Had that input been knowledgeable and / or more critical and examining of the actual materials presented, that person might have pointed out my error in my method of determining the "work done" during the magnet interactions.  Oh well.

It appears to me that the input, output and two reset motions of the operation, will return a net gain of zero when the measurements are again made, but upon my new measuring device.  This however remains to be seen.  If this is the case It will help to determine both the precision and accuracy of the new device.  Or it it will show O.U.....(insert laughing emoticon here).

Below are some new totals / graphs of measurements made with the original "TD" unit
and some photos of the completed "new TD" measuring device.  The *.OUT files are
simple text files and can be opened with any text / word processor

              best wishes
                           floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2016, 06:09:52 AM »
It's possible that this effect is from the ceramic magnets partial demagnetization during field compression.

When ceramic magnets face a neo, the pressure reaches a point then collapses causing demagnetizing of the ceramic magnet. But when two ceramic magnets face each other there is no demagnetizing but the field still partially collapses.

Once the magnets are separated the magnetic regions that were rotated return to their original state by the remaining unaffected area of the magnets.
This means the fields would collapse quickly over the short inline stroke but over the longer rotating output stroke the fields would return and provide an increase in force over the longer distance which would explain the difference you note.

Neo's will not exhibit this effect because no demagnetizing takes place with field compression.

That's my best effort to explain your results.





Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2016, 07:43:25 AM »
@ Lumen

QUOTE FROM LUMEN
"But when two ceramic magnets face each other there is no demagnetizing but the field still partially collapses. "  END QUOTE

A partial and / or temporary reversal of some of the magnetic domains within the ceramic magnets and said domains returning to their original orientations in the absents of the other field ?

Also, I agree that neos will probably behave differently. I'll try them in the future.

Interesting possible explanation,

however, I want to make it perfectly clear that.....

The RO graph has a TOTAL area of 301.8.  This number represents the TOTAL area within that RO graph.  This does not correctly represent the work out by the rotating motion.

The SL graph has a TOTAL area 229.41.  This number represents the TOTAL area within that SL graph.  Neither does this correctly represent the work in by the sliding motion.

An area of "337 for RO" and  of "379 for SL" are the values of those parts of those graphs which actually represent the work  by rotation (337) and work of (379) by sliding. 

These two values have a completely different ratio to one another, than  the TOTAL areas do to one another.  In fact in the first set RO is greater than SL, while in the second set SL is the greater.   

Stating that the total area of each graph was representative of the work present was a mistake  on my part.

                          still learning
                          kind regards
                              Floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2016, 01:42:53 AM »
Sorry, I was only looking at the graph and not the new area numbers.
Even so, there is a difference and it is likely due to some domain tilting or reversal within the magnets.

Suppose it's easier to tilt the domains while rotating into position than a more random twisting you might get with a straight on compression.
In either case one might believe it to be an anomaly in the magnet material rather than the process but even the process itself might imply that compressing the field straight on would take more work than forcing the field in a direction 90 degrees to the face.

There might also be some relationship in the magnet shape or proportion where a change in the magnet shape might result in an even greater variation.



Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2016, 12:14:08 AM »
@lumen
No apologies necessary , but rather, let me thank you  for the well reasoned and positive input.
Were on the same page.
                     Cheers
                    Floor

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2016, 02:15:16 PM »
@Floor

Your new machine is a very nice contraption and the experiment is very interesting. I find it interesting because it demonstrates a measuring problem:

- one needs two different mechanisms, one to push a magnet and a second to turn a magnet

- the two mechanisms have to be different (one pushes and the second turns)

- therefore the two mechanisms will have two different friction losses

- in addition the friction losses will not be the same over the operating range (more relative friction loss for small weights and less relative friction losses for heavier weights)

I can find no easy way to separate the friction losses from the measurement.

I come to the conclusion that the about 20% difference means that the overall friction loss in one mechanisms is about 20% less (ore more) than in the other mechanism.

So, you are measuring the difference in friction and not the difference in magnetic force. In  theory the magnet force should be the same (if you use similar magnets) and the friction in two different mechanism should be different. And your observation seems to show exactly that. And also, sliding seems to have more friction loss than turning, which is logical.

To make progress with your contraption one has to find a way to "separate" the friction losses from the magnetic force measurement. And unfortunately I have no idea how to do that.

I like to make a prediction: if one uses very big magnets and very heavy weights (several kilos) the difference in friction losses will be smaller (in case the machine is mechanically well built) because the friction losses will be smaller in comparison to the magnet force involved.

As in all OU machines, measurement is the challenge.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2016, 03:55:34 PM »
@Floor

Your new machine is a very nice contraption and the experiment is very interesting. I find it interesting because it demonstrates a measuring problem:

- one needs two different mechanisms, one to push a magnet and a second to turn a magnet

- the two mechanisms have to be different (one pushes and the second turns)

- therefore the two mechanisms will have two different friction losses

- in addition the friction losses will not be the same over the operating range (more relative friction loss for small weights and less relative friction losses for heavier weights)

I can find no easy way to separate the friction losses from the measurement.

I come to the conclusion that the about 20% difference means that the overall friction loss in one mechanisms is about 20% less (ore more) than in the other mechanism.

So, you are measuring the difference in friction and not the difference in magnetic force. In  theory the magnet force should be the same (if you use similar magnets) and the friction in two different mechanism should be different. And your observation seems to show exactly that. And also, sliding seems to have more friction loss than turning, which is logical.

To make progress with your contraption one has to find a way to "separate" the friction losses from the magnetic force measurement. And unfortunately I have no idea how to do that.

I like to make a prediction: if one uses very big magnets and very heavy weights (several kilos) the difference in friction losses will be smaller (in case the machine is mechanically well built) because the friction losses will be smaller in comparison to the magnet force involved.

As in all OU machines, measurement is the challenge.

Greetings, Conrad

@Conrad

The device was vibrated to remove as much friction as possible at each point so I believe it's worth further investigation.
I have done many magnetic force interaction tests and always found the total results to be very close meaning there is no OU.

I use CNC machines to hold and move the magnets and the results are measured with a digital scale.
Because the magnet under test is attached to a digital scale and never actually moves any friction is reduced to near zero.

At some point I will be testing the interaction of Floor's claim but even a negative on my testing does not invalidate the claim because the actual reason for the difference may not have been tested in my test.  It may not be as simple as the path the magnets travel.



Offline conradelektro

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2016, 08:55:41 PM »
I use CNC machines to hold and move the magnets and the results are measured with a digital scale.
Because the magnet under test is attached to a digital scale and never actually moves any friction is reduced to near zero.

Clever idea to fix the magnet to a digital scale! I also like the very precise positioning with a CNC machine.

At some point I will be testing the interaction of Floor's claim but even a negative on my testing does not invalidate the claim because the actual reason for the difference may not have been tested in my test.  It may not be as simple as the path the magnets travel.

It is a well known fact, that negative proof is not possible (because one could have overlooked some essential parameter). So lets hope you find a difference in some two paths which you are able to test.

But I think that what we know about electromagnetism rules that out.

1) There could be a difference going down to the level of particles (sub-atomic size) or in the very large (cosmological scale). Both areas are not easy to access.

2) It could also be, that moving magnets at a very high frequency (beyond Terra-Hertz) causes some strange relativistic effect (moving two magnets near the speed of light relative to each other). But this is almost impossible to do.

3) And finally, cooling a magnet down to absolute zero ( -272 C°) could make it behave strangely. Which would need a very good refrigerator.

All areas not thoroughly examined yet (since the 19th century) are not open to the home experimenter.

A pet science thing of mine is "mechanical resonance" (not "electromagnetic resonance in an oscillator"). In the 19th century they did a lot of things with crystals and resonance (but it was mostly esoterica).

Most musical instruments exhibit nice mechanical resonance effects. If you tune a musical instrument to a resonance frequency of a wine glass, you can make the wine glass sing along (very muted at a certain note). Tuning the wine glass by partly filling it with water is not very effective, because the water damps the vibration of the glass.

Mechanical resonance will probably not show OU but could be an effective way to heat something or to move something (conveyors or pumps).

Greetings, Conrad

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2016, 01:44:58 AM »
Just to show how much the shape of the magnet can affect it's character I uploaded this short video.

https://youtu.be/ZoDg6hVHttU

With the attraction shown, one might think that some of the work may not be equal in all cases.

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2016, 08:39:56 AM »
Good little demonstration of how the "fields" must wrap around in order for like poles to stick together at their so-called Bloch Wall.

Quite revealing.  Thanks for posting that clip.

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2016, 09:41:30 PM »
@ConradElectro

QUOTE FROM Conradelektro
"Your new machine is a very nice contraption and the
experiment is very interesting. I find it interesting because
it demonstrates a measuring problem: " END QUOTE

Agreement, yes an interesting problem.

The original "TD" measuring device was too crude to
facilitated any meaningful friction measurements.

Measurements made for the SL will be made to approach equilibrium from
both directions of the sliding motion to test if equilibrium of the forces has truly been
found..  Details of this process will be given with those measurements.

The new unit will be vibrated to facilitate the rapid arriving at the
equilibrium of forces, as was the original TD unit.  I  believe that
adding vibration is a valid method of eliminating the friction under
the measurement conditions. 

Realistic simulation of both, the RO friction-conditions and friction
might be be arrived at by a complicated process.   With the magnets removed
and incremental  weights / counterweights installed (each weight = 1/2 total
weight for that increment). Then a third weight on the same pulley to measure the
friction. Or something like that...  This could establish a basis for validating or
invalidating  the vibrating method.  Don't know though ?

Measurements of the state of the forces at the beginning of each set, and  measurements
of the friction  (magnets not in place) and others will be made as the process unfolds.

Let me contemplate your other suggestions / ideas until later.

                As usual thank you for your observations.

                                  best wishes
                                    Floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2016, 10:13:34 PM »
@Lumen

Yes I see it (video).  Reshaping in the external field.
This is in align with and as a first part of the exploration.

On another side of the exploration or additionally...
Does it require more energy to reorient or partially reorient
the domains (internal)  then energy that could be gained from
that reorientation, under all conditions.

Some parameters / details in photo form, below.

                           floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2016, 11:24:20 PM »
correction

In the top paragraph in the "NewParam3.png" photo,
It should read  Ro weight string is in place,  rather than
"SL string is in place"
 

                         floor  floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2016, 07:39:23 PM »
NewTDparameters 2.

The SL rails are inclined upwardly toward the RO magnet, by some
where between 0.5 and 0.75 degrees during the following  practice
run, device calibration and testing (NewParam6.PNG photo).  This
as to reliably insure that the SL rails were not inclined in the other direction.

70 mm of string (0.5grams) hang below, both the RO and the SL pulleys,
when their respective scales read at 45 degrees (NewParam5.PNG photo).

The weight of the figure of 8 knots (0.016 grams), which keeps the RO
and SL strings from slipping through the 1/16 inch diameter holes in the
pulleys are negated. 

The SL scale counter weight, weighs 4.425 grams. The weight of the fine
thread by which it is suspended in negated (NewParam5.PNG photo).

With the SL magnet replaced with a non magnetic dummy weight
(NewParam7.PNG photo), it requires 8.425 grams on the SL weight string
to cause the SL sledge to reliably move toward the RO magnet (with vibration).

The 8.425 grams (SL weight ) minus the 4.425 grams (SL scale counter weight)
is equal to 4 grams.  Adding the weight of the SL weight string (0.5grams)
brings the total weight required to cause SL's sliding (with vibration) toward
RO, to 4.5 grams.

It required 4.425grams less weight, upon the SL string in the absence of
the SL scale counter weight.

In the absence of the 8.425 grams of weight upon the SL weight string, the
SL sledge moves away from the RO magnet (with vibration).

It requires less than 4.5 grams to motivate the SL sledge when the
sledge is level.

Other test are to follow.

                        floor