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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 67739 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2016, 11:30:12 PM »
@ lumen

Nice presentation.

The only changes in force that could be easily missed, are those
occurring at very close range,  (domain flipping).

Other wise, the curves are pretty predictable.

I think one could  skew the ratio of RO to SL by differing the
number of samples taken on one side or the other.

How dramatically the law of diminishing returns is affecting the two sets (RO and SL)
is the only question I have at this point.

         floor


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2016, 11:30:12 PM »

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #151 on: October 13, 2016, 10:31:42 PM »
@ floor

Thanks, good to see you made it back.

I thought plotting the curves might show some problem area but it looks like nothing could explain 13.5% error.
Once I modify this setup to take some stronger forces I'm thinking of running this same test over using smaller steps and recalculate the results.
If it ends up about the same results, I suppose that would indicate we are on the right track anyway.

I first need to finish another project so it might be another week before I can do the tests.
Interesting stuff!

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2016, 12:53:10 AM »
Acknowledged

            floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2016, 12:53:10 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2016, 04:40:02 PM »
Why does the twist drive work ?

Why is there such a great difference between the
inducing and induced fields in an electromagnet ?

It takes less force and or energy to rotate atoms / molecules into a magnetic domain
alignment, than the net linear force which those atoms can  manifest collectively
as magnetic domains.

The twist drive works for the same reason ?

                           floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2016, 05:30:15 PM »
You might have experienced what we call flux modulation - that has played you a trick.
Flux modulation might be a problem in speakers. The magnetized iron pole piece is modulated by the voicecoil (Which is an electromagnet), and cause modulation of the magnetic airgap where the voicecoil is located. This will cause a different BL product on positive versus negative excursion of the coil.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2016, 05:30:15 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2016, 10:56:46 PM »
@Low-Q

QUOTE FROM Low-Q

"You might have experienced what we call flux modulation - that has played you a trick.
Flux modulation might be a problem in speakers. The magnetized iron pole piece is modulated by the voicecoil (Which is an electromagnet), and cause modulation of the magnetic airgap where the voicecoil is located. This will cause a different BL product on positive versus negative excursion of the coil."
END QUOTE

I was not referring to either, an alternating or pulsating DC current. 
Iwas NOT referring to a solenoid WITH  A MOVING CORE.

I am referring to the fact that a DC energized coil WITH  AN IRON CORE (an electromagnet)
can produce a MANY TIMES GREATER magnetic force than...

that same DC energized coil in the absents of an iron core.  This even when the same amperage
is flowing through the coil in both cases.

                             floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2016, 11:35:06 PM »
OK. Iron will narrow the magnetic flux into its core on the expense of less magnetic flux outside it, but the total magnetism, if you could "count" the magnetic lines, will be the same number as in an electromagnet with an air core.
The flux must loop from north to south. When you use an iron core, the fluxlines are taking sharper corners than using air core. Therfor the magnetic force is greater with an iron core, but on the expense on how far that force can reach - normally in a very narrow space.
It is where the fluxlines takes its sharpest corners where the force is greatest - closest to the physical corners/circumference of the iron core at the south or north pole.


What has this to do with the twist drive? Does it make any difference in practice wether you use iron core or not? No criticism, just asking.


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2016, 11:35:06 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #157 on: October 21, 2016, 12:11:04 AM »
I have to say this new laundry room is taking longer than I wanted.
12' x 18' , drywall, plumbing, flooring, ceiling, electrical.... what else?

I need to get back and collect more data before I'm dead!
Hope to be back soon.

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2016, 03:07:09 AM »
@Low-Q

QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"OK. Iron will narrow the magnetic flux into its core on the expense of less magnetic flux outside it, but the total magnetism, if you could "count" the magnetic lines, will be the same number as in an electromagnet with an air core.
The flux must loop from north to south. When you use an iron core, the fluxlines are taking sharper corners than using air core. Therfor the magnetic force is greater with an iron core, but on the expense on how far that force can reach - normally in a very narrow space.
It is where the fluxlines takes its sharpest corners where the force is greatest - closest to the physical corners/circumference of the iron core at the south or north pole.

What has this to do with the twist drive? Does it make any difference in practice wether you use iron core or not? No criticism, just asking."
 
 END QUOTE

Firstly...  I am not an expert in magnets. I once thought, that an Iron core only concentrated a coils magnetic field, but did not
actually increase it. 

I keep learning more all the time.

Quote from  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html

"Electromagnets are usually in the form of iron core solenoids. The ferromagnetic property of the iron core causes the internal magnetic domains of the iron to line up with THE SMALLER DRIVING MAGNETIC FIELD produced by the current in the solenoid. The effect is the multiplication of the magnetic field by factors of tens to even thousands." END QUOTE

               best wishes
                  floor                       


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2016, 03:07:09 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #159 on: October 21, 2016, 03:11:38 AM »
@Lumen

Don't rush it.
Just get into it, and geter done.

                  floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2016, 03:00:29 PM »
@ all readers.

Here is a configuration, in which RO is the output and
SL is the input. 

The work in to work out ratio can become
extreamly large. 

This is because the work to place the RO (rotating) magnet
between the two SL (slideing) magnets ocuurs mainly, just as
the ends of magnets SL begin to pass the end of
magnet RO.

The  length (latteral) of the magnets can be increased, by
useing multiple magnets, placed end to end.

Increasing the length of the magnets DOES NOT increase
the input work, but it DOES Increase the output work.

please find the attached PDF

                 best wishes
                              floor







Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2016, 03:00:29 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2016, 03:37:00 PM »
Quote
I once thought, that an Iron core only concentrated a coils magnetic field, but did not
actually increase it.
And you were right. It does not increase, but concentrate the field to a narrow space. Increasing flux density into a narrower space like using a lens to focus sunlight so you can burn ants.
The energy in the light does not increase, but is narrowed to a smaller point so the energy density increase.
The total sunlight energy, or magnetic flux, appears to increase, but it doesn't. Only the density changes on the expence of a smaller space.
Remember that the only magnetic field lines that is available, is only those that is around the wire in the coil.

Vidar

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2016, 03:06:02 PM »
@Low-Q

QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"And you were right. It does not increase, but concentrate the field to a narrow space. Increasing flux density into a narrower space like using a lens to focus sunlight so you can burn ants."
END QUOTE
                                                            Invalid anology.


QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"The energy in the light does not increase, but is narrowed to a smaller point so the energy density increase."
END QUOTE
                                                             Correct


The total sunlight energy, or magnetic flux, appears to increase, but it doesn't. Only the density changes on the expence of a smaller space. "
END QUOTE
                                                            Invalid anology.                                         


QUOTE FROM Low-Q
"Remember that the only magnetic field lines that is available, is only those that is around the wire in the coil."
END QUOTE
                                                            Wrong


Quote from  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/elemag.html

"Electromagnets are usually in the form of iron core solenoids. The ferromagnetic property of the iron core causes the internal magnetic domains of the iron to line up with THE SMALLER DRIVING MAGNETIC FIELD produced by the current in the solenoid. The effect is the multiplication of the magnetic field by factors of tens to even thousands."

END QUOTE

                     Floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #163 on: October 27, 2016, 04:44:42 PM »
Quote
the iron core causes the internal magnetic domains of the iron to line up with THE SMALLER DRIVING MAGNETIC FIELD produced by the current in the solenoid[/size]
What do you think this means?


Vidar

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2016, 12:16:11 AM »
@ Low-Q

OK I'll bite, What do you think it means ?

       floor

 

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