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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 68311 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2016, 06:10:10 PM »
@lumen

I'm interested in what GOOD critics have to say, because their critical examinations often bring
about new points of view.  I don't have to agree with their conclusions.

LostCauses10X likes to rock the boat.. . Sometimes  boats need a good shaking.
I don't mind it, so long as it doesn't sink the boat, or knock somebody over board.

Please find the attached file circular.PDF

               best wishes
                         floor
I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze.
The "stator" magnet must do 4 revolutions for each revolution of the rotor. If you just can find a way to calculate or simulate the energy required to rotate the stator 4 times and simulate the energy provided by the rotor for one revolution. Maxwell 3D can maybe do this?
I imagine that the stator will constantly counterforce as there is no place to "rest", and it is rotating 4 times faster than the rotor. So I am wondering if it is possible to determine in which direction the rotor will go if we look at how much displacement there is involved vs. torque...


Vidar

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2016, 06:10:10 PM »

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2016, 12:17:54 AM »
@Low-Q

Quote from Low-Q "I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze." END QUOTE

I disagree on both counts

"Believers " are not particularly useful in science.

It seems to me that seeing some actual evidence that it can work, should precede one's building "IT".

The circular "IT" device is vaguely describe in my PDF file, and exactly timing the two rotations would not be
"easy".

Easy to make a mess of seem most likely.?

                        floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2016, 01:16:50 AM »
I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze.
The "stator" magnet must do 4 revolutions for each revolution of the rotor. If you just can find a way to calculate or simulate the energy required to rotate the stator 4 times and simulate the energy provided by the rotor for one revolution. Maxwell 3D can maybe do this?
I imagine that the stator will constantly counterforce as there is no place to "rest", and it is rotating 4 times faster than the rotor. So I am wondering if it is possible to determine in which direction the rotor will go if we look at how much displacement there is involved vs. torque...


Vidar

Floor's design might work or might work even better if the rotor was a smaller diameter to increase leverage.
I feel that if in fact some gain can be achieved in magnetic interaction, then the reason for it needs to be determined in order to build a useful machine.

At this time, it seems to me that the part of the interaction that is detrimental is the attraction part. So far it appears that gain only comes from a neutral position to a repelling position and that once in full attraction one can never achieve a gain from that position.

To do software testing on a design even as simple as floor's rotary design involves many magnets and many steps which would take days to calculate even with a script making the moves.
It's usually easier and faster to build a device to test it but the reason why the device should work needs to be known first.

But you never know, it could just work!  ???



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2016, 01:16:50 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2016, 07:19:31 AM »
I'll clarify my position.

I have as of this point in time, built 3 different measuring devices, in order to test if indeed there is a difference in

the work required to separate two magnets in attraction by rotation
.....and
the work to  separate those magnets by directly pulling them apart.

The question I at first had in mind was ...  did it only appear to be easier to twist them apart, due to the mechanics of human hands, wrists and so on ? or was there actually a  difference.

The  first of my three devices could only measure the peak forces of each of these two scenarios.   
The difference in those peak values was   > 19% .  Hence the name of this topic.

The second device was a modification of the first device which allowed measurements of the varied force (as weight applied)  at increments of distance.

After a series of blunders  due to my lack of  understanding of

the process of integrating a changing force over distance,
     and
also incorrect interpretation of graphs of those forces.

I hit the books.  Things are very different at this time, my knowledge base has expanded very considerably.
..............................
Additionally, I now have an accurate device (device number 3) for making those measurements.

The SL work is more than  173%  greater than  RO not merely  19% ... I have no doubt of this, as  I have measured and pondered this many times now.  I also understand that this is basically unbelievable.

As to, is this is possible or  not  and   how could  it possibly work, 

                          I CARE NOT EVEN ONE TINY BIT at his point in time.

As to whether others should  believe my claims ?  No... I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD.  I DO think they should see for their selves.   If my presentations have been inadequate toward the goal of inspiring others to that end, I do apologize.

If the reader realizes that his skills and or resources are inadequate to the task, that's  ok.. 

But If you cannot do muster excellence,  in either confirmation or refutation of my findings, is would be far far better just to stay out of the way.  I do a good enough job of cluttering up the topic with out any ones help.

                                 best wishes
                                            floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2016, 08:35:04 AM »
Quote
The question I at first had in mind was ...  did it only appear to be easier to twist them apart, due to the mechanics of human hands, wrists and so on ? or was there actually a  difference.[/size]
This is exactly why we cannot trust our hand. The twist require less force, but on the other hand it also require more displacement to achieve a full separation.
Peak values are not interesting. It is the average values vs. displacement that is interesting to analyze.
Since the forces change during the operation, it is needed to be taken as many samples as possible.


I can agree with you in your previous post that actually building this device is much easier. If it works, it should work. If not, we need no more testing or tweaking.
Magnets are conservative, and should by their nature not be able to perform work. There is "always" a catch in magnet motor designs that the inventor didn't think of at first.


If theory and practice doesn't add up, we must throw away the theory - just like the theory of global warming that doesn't add upp with actual reason for global warming (except that the global warming theory cost too much prestige, money and column inches to throw away).


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2016, 08:35:04 AM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2016, 04:08:11 PM »
test,just wanted a link back to this thread.triffid

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2016, 06:45:32 PM »
@floor
I was wondering if your increase in gain was related to notching the magnet in your last setup?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2016, 06:45:32 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #127 on: September 30, 2016, 12:36:09 AM »
Hi Lumen

Here is some relevant info.

First, working with RO  at  32 deg. off from parallel  cuts done  the
distance traveled  by SL, before SL is beyond significant influence from RO.

This was done because   MY TD unit has limited SL range of travel.
In order to arrive at a distance where in...  SL is "free" from RO,  but also
RO is "free" from SL  I needed to keep RO to no more than Around 30
degrees from parallel.   

In  other words...  in order to find the distance at which at which RO can be
FREELY rotated to parallel,  would have been a greater distance than
then the length of the sliding rails used in my version of a TD unit.   

All this gives us information about the interactions, but again is a kind of back
wards approaching of the interactions.  Still, it gives us perspectives we might
not immediately have noticed other wise.

Notching the SL matters....  IF one is looking at / running  the TD unit Back wards !
notching the SL matters..... but is not necessary at all, if one is operating the TD
with RO as input and SL as out put.


         Good questions
               floor

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #128 on: September 30, 2016, 12:52:33 AM »
CORRECTION

QUOTE  "In  other words...  in order to find the distance at which at which RO can be
FREELY rotated to parallel, " END QUOTE

RATHER

in other words.... in order to find the distance of SL from RO...
at which RO can be  FREELY rotated to parallel is not possible on my unit. 

Up to around 30 degrees is the the most parallel one can go before RO resistance to
rotation becomes significant.  SL simple will not travel far enough (on my TD unit).

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #128 on: September 30, 2016, 12:52:33 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #129 on: September 30, 2016, 09:39:44 PM »
I think I have found a compatable theory for the energy source.

             Phlogiston !

                         smile
                               floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #130 on: October 01, 2016, 12:22:45 AM »
I just finished doing some calculations on new results from my latest test rig so here are some results without all the detail but the idea.

Using magnets that are 1/8 x 1.00 x 2.00  there was a gain of 13.5%

Though this sounds like a good amount of extra work but it is actually a force of .155 grams (5.47 oz) over a distance of 20.32 mm (.800 inch)

The maximum force on the structure at the worst point is about 3.63 Kg between the magnets.
So any device that could run on those magnets would have to operate with a few ounces of force but also be strong enough to withstand forces over 8 lbs.

Just a thought on the expectations of friction and design.

This new setup is a bit more universal so I'm thinking to move on to floor's arrangement and see what happens there. 8)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #130 on: October 01, 2016, 12:22:45 AM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #131 on: October 01, 2016, 01:33:58 AM »
Thanks for the update Lumen.

                 regards
                          floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #132 on: October 01, 2016, 04:20:18 AM »
I may try a design something like this because it could handle high forces and yet operate with very little friction.

@floor
I could always change the magnet orientations to your layout if testing proves it to be more efficient!

Offline Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #133 on: October 01, 2016, 03:15:20 PM »
@Low-Q

QUOTE from Low-Q "If theory and practice doesn't add up, we must throw away the theory -  "END QUOTE

You bring up good points. 

I am NOT proceeding from the theoretical to the empirical..  This whole endeavor has been 
based only upon observations and measurements.

I have only some vague ideas / observations as to why there is difference in the work RO to work SL.

1. It would seem to violate conservation, but once it is understood, probably doesn't ?

2. Any two magnets interacting in either predominantly attraction or repulsion, actually are
influenced by both, some attraction and some repulsion.  In the TD magnet configuration.
the ratios of attraction and repulsion are different under the conditions of rotation as
compared to a direct approaching ?

3. The configuration  /  interactions ,gives rise to some form of magnetic shielding ?

However, I am NOT proceeding from the theoretical to the empirical..  This whole endeavor has been 
based only upon observations and measurements.

Those measurements are of some of the most basic and simple physical properties.

My measurements and processes are either correct (within an acceptable margin)
 or
they are in error. 

The conclusion are self evident.

@Lumen

No worries, but,I don't understand the force inbteractions and or motions in your drawings.

                         floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #134 on: October 02, 2016, 02:11:56 AM »
Here are some pictures of my rotary and slide force measuring devices.
The replaceable ends help to make it a bit more universal in testing different magnet shapes.

I use the same digital scale on both devices to avoid any scale error.

 

OneLink