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Author Topic: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2  (Read 100049 times)

Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2016, 10:30:43 AM »
Thanks Lumen

sumthun to  study  contemplate

            floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2016, 10:35:33 AM »
So here are the results that I calculated to have a gain of about 12% excess output over input.
I tried to make it easy with all steps including the rotation move to be .05"
You can see from the negative number in the data, that near the end of the sequence the magnets pull together.

The magnets at their zero spacing have about .03" gap in all the tests.

I also added a short animation of the entire sequence.
http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/160341/
What is the torque readings you got here? It looks like you have only calculated the linear force between the magnets.


EDIT: Or is the Force readings actually torque? in Pic2? If it is, it require about 7.32 Joule to turn the magnet 90 degrees. You get 0.11 Joule in repulsion in Pic3...(???)


Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2016, 04:59:19 PM »
http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/dlattach/attach/160341/
What is the torque readings you got here? It looks like you have only calculated the linear force between the magnets.


EDIT: Or is the Force readings actually torque? in Pic2? If it is, it require about 7.32 Joule to turn the magnet 90 degrees. You get 0.11 Joule in repulsion in Pic3...(???)


Vidar

Vidar
The torque is the force at a radius of .5093 from the center pivot point.
At this distance, a 90 degree rotation causes a linear movement of .800" inch.

This keeps the travel distance and step size equal over all tests.
I simply added all the forces in each set and divided by the number of steps to get the average step force for each set.
You need to find the average so the zero readings are included over the full distance traveled.



Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2016, 06:41:37 PM »
Vidar
The torque is the force at a radius of .5093 from the center pivot point.
At this distance, a 90 degree rotation causes a linear movement of .800" inch.

This keeps the travel distance and step size equal over all tests.
I simply added all the forces in each set and divided by the number of steps to get the average step force for each set.
You need to find the average so the zero readings are included over the full distance traveled.
OK. I don't think I understood that :D
What software are you using to measure forces in 3D?


Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2016, 07:13:28 PM »
OK. I don't think I understood that :D
What software are you using to measure forces in 3D?


Vidar

The measurements in the pictures were made from real magnets using a digital scale and CNC machines to apply the forces.
It's intent was to verify the forces indicated in software using "Maxwell 3D"

It appears that both software and the real tests produced similar curves for each test.
The software used N35 magnets and the real tests used N42 and might explain some of the difference in results.



Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2016, 04:29:09 PM »
I have a larger set of magnets (1/8 x 1.00 x 2.00) that are much stronger and it might be interesting to test in the same fashion to see if the results are similar.
These larger magnets should have forces more suited to my scales range and the variation in shape should change the result for better or worse.

I also have another set that are very strong (.50 x 1.00 x 2.00) that could be tested in a similar test or with the parallel orientation as in floor's tests.

Because these are all neodymium magnets there is likely no domain shifting within the magnets and the only theory I might have for gain in energy would be that the field itself might be partially assisting with the alignment.  :o


Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2016, 08:08:44 PM »
@Lumen
 
Do you plan to also test the "floor" configuration ?
Would you like me to do a graph set of your last measurments?
....................
@all readers

Please find the attached pdf file    "both pdf".

The motions depicted in this pdf animation are not necessarily
identical to the motions that would actually occur under the conditions
animated.  The lateral displacements of the SLs would tend to occur during most of
the RO rotation, and not only when RO is at maximum repulsion and attraction positions.

                        floor

Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2016, 08:18:43 PM »
The design illustrated in the "both.pdf" is given into the public domain.
It is a method of torque conversion and also a basis for a magnet motor.

                   floor

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2016, 09:15:59 PM »
@Lumen
 
Do you plan to also test the "floor" configuration ?
Would you like me to do a graph set of your last measurments?
....................
                        floor

@floor
At this time I am trying to come up with a good design for a test rig where I could hold many different size magnets and perform rotational and distance moves to collect force data on all the points in between.

I believe I understand now why and how the action provides extra energy but additional data may lead to the optimum configuration.
If I build a universal testing device it would be possible to collect data on many different interactions including yours.

As far as graphing the last data set? I probably wouldn't spend additional time on it thinking additional data is more important at this point but thanks anyway.
We'll see what happens in the next test.

Why do I feel "Steorn" has already done all this and knows the result. Didn't they have a machine to do this exact same thing?



Floor

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2016, 09:17:50 PM »
Righty o

           floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2016, 04:21:45 PM »
@ all readers

I have received a communication from an old user here "lost causes 10X"

Although I do not entirely agree with his conclusion, I am publishing  that
communication here because, I find his observations / insights to be valuable.

One of the ideas he has presented, is that SL magnet  motion is actually twice
the RO magnet motion, and hence the apparent, but not actual OU.

I on the other hand, think that under ideal conditions the work done on SL by the weights
would be exactly twice the work done by RO on its weights.  It is this (ideal 2 : 1) part of his
idea that I find agreement with.

Please find his, the attached PNG file "lost causes 10 X"

                            best wishes
                                      floor

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2016, 04:23:45 PM »
File below

Offline lumen

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2016, 08:21:53 PM »
That is one hard to comprehend line of thinking.
The angle is not improtant in the results when the data invloves only force over distance.
I had configured my test to avoid any additional conversion of forces by keeping all measurements linear over the same distance. The angle need not even be known.
This allows for easy comparison of work done or required along every movement.

Looking for fault in the angles used is simply looking for a reason to claim failure.
IMO



Floor

  • Guest
Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2016, 06:58:42 PM »
@lumen

I'm interested in what GOOD critics have to say, because their critical examinations often bring
about new points of view.  I don't have to agree with their conclusions.

LostCauses10X likes to rock the boat.. . Sometimes  boats need a good shaking.
I don't mind it, so long as it doesn't sink the boat, or knock somebody over board.

Please find the attached file circular.PDF

               best wishes
                         floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Work from 2 magnets > 19% output 2
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2016, 06:10:10 PM »
@lumen

I'm interested in what GOOD critics have to say, because their critical examinations often bring
about new points of view.  I don't have to agree with their conclusions.

LostCauses10X likes to rock the boat.. . Sometimes  boats need a good shaking.
I don't mind it, so long as it doesn't sink the boat, or knock somebody over board.

Please find the attached file circular.PDF

               best wishes
                         floor
I think that your circular configuration would be easier to build, and easier to analyze.
The "stator" magnet must do 4 revolutions for each revolution of the rotor. If you just can find a way to calculate or simulate the energy required to rotate the stator 4 times and simulate the energy provided by the rotor for one revolution. Maxwell 3D can maybe do this?
I imagine that the stator will constantly counterforce as there is no place to "rest", and it is rotating 4 times faster than the rotor. So I am wondering if it is possible to determine in which direction the rotor will go if we look at how much displacement there is involved vs. torque...


Vidar