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Author Topic: Acoustic magnetic generator.  (Read 102862 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #150 on: March 13, 2014, 01:50:25 AM »
@Milehigh,


Here's what I think to be Jerry Bayles's best video including a sound tract: He conducts five tests and discusses an electrogravitational frequency of 10.03 hrz along with the Schumman constant of 7.83 hrz. View tests 3 and 4. Bayles understands the nature of the Shumman resonance cavity between space and ground. Explain why you don't believe there is extra energy generated in Bayles balance magnets at the resonant frequencies he remarks about. There's an inverse conversion factor, and he's measuring in micro seconds.


Bayles's analysis of the Chiral effect, excluding equality of field strength in magnets of equal strength and the possibility of propulsion back and forth from rotation is of special interest as well:


The fundamental electrogravitational frequency of 10.03 Hz is measured as a strong resonance along with others that prove the standing wave field exists around the disk magnets which leads to chiral energy differences that arise from a spiral geometry moving outwards from the disks. This is free energy and proof that energy is not balanced around the disks.

This sounds extremely complex, but Jerry's experiments would be very simple to replicate.


http://www.electrogravity.com/BMRT/BalMagResTests_6.mov

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #150 on: March 13, 2014, 01:50:25 AM »

Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #151 on: March 13, 2014, 02:18:24 AM »
Ok,  back on topic:  Acoustic Magnetic Generator.
I put something together using a 40W Piezo element and 2 ferrite rods on each side of this piezo.
Generally that's a good arrangement because as the piezo expands and shrinks the two rods constitute symmetrical counterpoises to that motion ...on both sides of the piezo.  What's are the lengths of these rods anyway?

In order to get a clear visualization of the acoustic standing waves forming in the ferrite rod, that are not affected by capacitive and magnetic sensing artifacts, please take a Dremel tool with a diamond wheel and cut a small groove in the rod as shown here.
Fill the groove with fine dry sand and observe as the sand collects at nodes of longitudinal standing waves, as you vary the piezo drive frequency.
BTW: use some kind of a linear slide to guide the Dremel tool (or the rod) in order to grind a straight groove of constant depth.

Please do not skip this node visualization tool.

For the time being i tested with my FG output (20V pp) only, but probably need some more power into the piezo by using a transformer or my Amplifier.
Yes, PA+IMT should be good for that purpose.

I "clamp" the both ferrite rods to the piezo by 2 neo magnets, not sure if this interferes with the flux from the ceramic magnets forming the loop.
That's clever but the magnets will cause acoustic reflections due to the discontinuity in the speed of sound in them.
Also note that NdFeB, SmCo and AlNiCo magnets are electrically conductive and thus no good at HF because eddy currents form in them - they act as shorted turns at HF.

I pick up some signals with a 93mH/180 Ohm coil.
A narrow coil is fine for detecting permeability and flux changes in the rod, however before you start trusting that coil as an AC field sensor you should determine its LC resonance frequency because this coil will have a lot of interwinding capacitance which will form an LC tank with its self-inductance.
Once you determine this LC resonance frequency, you should remember not to trust this sensor coil at this frequency.

Also, note that the piezo can be a source of intense AC electric fields, that can capacitively couple to various sensors and scope probes.  Use idle scope probes to feel around the piezo to determine how much of a capacitive coupling problem you have.  If it is obnoxious then shield the piezo and its clips/wires with grounded copper foil (without touching the piezo or the ferrite rods with the foil).

I am still trying to fully understand the patent which can be found here
Comments are welcome. Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Pachec48I&feature=youtu.be   
The author of this patent does not mention NAR.  He mentions only the Villari effect.  Maybe this device inadvertently causes NAR if it is subjected to an accidental magnetic field at a 90┬║ angle.

General advices:
1) Remember to pay special attention to any frequency doublings (I think your video showed it at one point)
2) Even a paper-thin air gap in a magnetic path can easily increase its reluctance by 10x.
3) Remember that the differential permeability of permanent magnets is close to air/vacuum and because of that permanent magnets not make good AC magnetic flux guides.  Even high permeability magnetic flux guides do not function well if they are gaped, thin or if the width to height aspect ratio of the flux path exceeds 1.5:1.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 11:12:04 AM by verpies »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #152 on: March 13, 2014, 02:41:26 AM »
Synchro1:

I looked at the clip.  Here is what I think the setup is:  There is a signal generator that is controlling the speed of a small motor.  The small motor drives two big radially-magnetized disk magnets.  Above the disk magnets there is something that resembles a weather vane.  There are magnets on the "weather vane" that cause it to flutter due to the changing magnetic fields.  At the right frequency the weather vane starts to spin.

Is that accurate?

If it is, then you are looking at a synchronous motor.  The weather vane is pushed around by the changing magnetic fields and then eventually the frequency is right and it starts to rotate synchronously with the big spinning magnetic disks.  So there is no resonance here.  This is a variation on all the clips were an (off camera) rotating magnet makes a bunch of little ball magnets in separate bowls start to run around in circles.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #152 on: March 13, 2014, 02:41:26 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #153 on: March 13, 2014, 05:11:45 AM »
Synchro1:

I looked at the clip.  Here is what I think the setup is:  There is a signal generator that is controlling the speed of a small motor.  The small motor drives two big radially-magnetized disk magnets.  Above the disk magnets there is something that resembles a weather vane.  There are magnets on the "weather vane" that cause it to flutter due to the changing magnetic fields.  At the right frequency the weather vane starts to spin.

Is that accurate?

If it is, then you are looking at a synchronous motor.  The weather vane is pushed around by the changing magnetic fields and then eventually the frequency is right and it starts to rotate synchronously with the big spinning magnetic disks.  So there is no resonance here.  This is a variation on all the clips were an (off camera) rotating magnet makes a bunch of little ball magnets in separate bowls start to run around in circles.

MileHigh


Wrong! You're looking at two axially magnetized spinning disk magnets in a Faraday Homopolar configuration. The magnetic fields are stationary. The Chiral effect, like the left hand rule, causes one of the equally magnetized disks to grow more powerful, depending on the spin direction. The non equilibrium is contested at the perimeter where the balance magnets are located. This oscillation is determined by the spin frequency! This is an A vector potential and has nothing to do with conventional Lenz related output!

Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #154 on: March 13, 2014, 10:39:26 AM »
The small motor drives two big radially-magnetized disk magnets.
Wrong! You're looking at two axially magnetized spinning disk magnets
Please keep the discussion coherent and at a decent debating level.
He wrote "radial" - not "axial".

If it is, then you are looking at a synchronous motor. 
...in a Faraday Homopolar configuration.
There you go again.
He wrote "synchronous", not "Homopolar"

...flutter due to the changing magnetic fields
The magnetic fields are stationary.
Why are they stationary if their sources are non-uniform and moving?
Anyway, Milehigh specifically wrote about changing magnetinc fields, not about moving or non-stationary fields.
Conflation of "changing" with "moving" confuses direction with magnitude and brings the discussion to a new lower level.

The Chiral effect, like the left hand rule, causes one of the equally magnetized disks to grow more powerful, depending on the spin direction.
This statement seems to imply that the magnetic field is non-constant after all.  According to the statement above, the field "grows" as a result of some spinning motion.
Is there a relationship of the flux or flux density to time or angular position?  Is this relationship periodic or monotonic?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #154 on: March 13, 2014, 10:39:26 AM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #155 on: March 13, 2014, 11:31:00 AM »
Generally that's a good arrangement because as the piezo expands and shrinks the two rods constitute symmetrical counterpoises to that motion ...on both sides of the piezo.  What's are the lengths of these rods anyway?

In order to get a clear visualization of the acoustic standing waves forming in the ferrite rod, that are not affected by capacitive and magnetic sensing artifacts, please take a Dremel tool with a diamond wheel and cut a small groove in the rod as shown here.
Fill the groove with fine dry sand and observe as the sand collects at nodes of longitudinal standing waves, as you vary the piezo drive frequency.
BTW: use some kind of a linear slide to guide the Dremel tool (or the rod) in order to grind a straight groove of constant depth.

Please do not skip this node visualization tool.

The present rods are 200mm by 10mm, the new ones will be 200mm by 20mm.
I did use some sort of container taped around one of the rods filled with table salt (see picture), but no movement was observed at all.
Could be the salt is to sticky or somehow no resonance was taking place during this initial test.

Quote
Yes, PA+IMT should be good for that purpose.

I used my PA in the following clip (changed the setup a little too), but this limits the frequency range till about 60KHz which could be a problem.
I was able to input >300V pp into the piezo without seeing anything special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGrgsJCRVe0&feature=youtu.be


Quote
That's clever but the magnets will cause acoustic reflections due to the discontinuity in the speed of sound in them.
Also note that NdFeB, SmCo and AlNiCo magnets are electrically conductive and thus no good at HF because eddy currents form in them - they act as shorted turns at HF.

Ok,  need to remove them somehow then. 
For the new rods i have some clamps which might fit which will push them against both sides of the piezo. 

Quote
A narrow coil is fine for detecting permeability and flux changes in the rod, however before you start trusting that coil as an AC field sensor you should determine its LC resonance frequency because this coil will have a lot of interwinding capacitance which will form an LC tank with its self-inductance.
Once you determine this LC resonance frequency, you should remember not to trust this sensor coil at this frequency.

Also, note that the piezo can be a source of intense AC electric fields, that can capacitively couple to various sensors and scope probes.  Use idle scope probes to feel around the piezo to determine how much of a capacitive coupling problem you have.  If it is obnoxious then shield the piezo and its clips/wires with grounded copper foil (without touching the piezo or the ferrite rods with the foil).

Right, good point i will try to find its LC resonance frequency.
With the PA (>300V pp) there was a noticeable ac field which i could feel with my finger when touching the piezo.
This touching caused a greater response in the pickup coil, also when touching the pickup coil (to move it), there is a big influenze on the amplitude of the signal (increase), which somehow does not seem right.


Quote
The author of this patent does not mention NAR.  He mentions only the Villari effect.  Maybe this device inadvertently causes NAR if it is subjected to an accidental magnetic field at a 90┬║ angle.

General advices:
1) Remember to pay special attention to any frequency doublings (I think your video showed it at one point)
2) Even a paper-thin air gap in a magnetic path can easily increase its reluctance by 10x.
3) Remember that the differential permeability of permanent magnets is close to air/vacuum and because of that permanent magnets not make good AC magnetic flux guides.  Even high permeability magnetic flux guides do not function well if they are gaped, thin or if the width to height aspect ratio of the flux path exceeds 1.5:1.

Thanks, i did change the layout of the permanent magnets so they form a continuous path now, see latest video.
When i use the formule V/(2*L)=F from the patent and using 5000 m/s (v) for the ferrite used (20cm), i calculate a Frequency F of 12.5KHz.
But no response seen on that frequency yet.

On my first clip user "attikanagy" responded with some similar experiments with even more simple components (postcard speaker) everybody can collect.
He seens to be able to light a led, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qauZ4WBwAOM


If i stepped on any toes for misusing this thread, please speak up, i will gladly open another one for this.


Regards Itsu

Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #156 on: March 13, 2014, 03:02:10 PM »
I did use some sort of container taped around one of the rods filled with table salt (see picture), but no movement was observed at all.  Could be the salt is to sticky or somehow no resonance was taking place during this initial test.
Yes, salt never worked for me either.  Eventually I had success with aquarium sand that I got in a zoo/pet store as well as sieved abrasive powders from a hardware store.

I found that for sensing longitudinal waves, the sound's amplitude and longitudinal friction should be maximized.
The exaggerated cross section of a grain of sand in a groove, illustrates this.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #156 on: March 13, 2014, 03:02:10 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #157 on: March 13, 2014, 03:15:34 PM »
Thanks, i did change the layout of the permanent magnets so they form a continuous path now, see latest video.
A semicircle would be better. because of a shorter flux path and less leakage flux due to larger distance from the ferrite rod.

The diagram below illustrates the leakage flux of an inferior rectangular path.  Your rectangular flux path is much wider than higher, thus much more susceptible to such leakage.

Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2014, 03:21:02 PM »
When i use the formule V/(2*L)=F from the patent and using 5000 m/s (v) for the ferrite used (20cm), i calculate a Frequency F of 12.5KHz. But no response seen on that frequency yet.
The formula is correct but the speed of sound might not be because for long thin rods you should use the slower extensional speed of sound.

On my first clip user "attikanagy" responded with some similar experiments with even more simple components (postcard speaker) everybody can collect.  He seens to be able to light a led, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qauZ4WBwAOM
Yes, this effect is real.  Note that he tunes his standing wave frequency less coarsely than you ;)
Also he does not have a counterpoise in the other side of his piezo which is bad - it limits his amplitude.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #158 on: March 13, 2014, 03:21:02 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #159 on: March 13, 2014, 03:39:58 PM »
Wrong! You're looking at two axially magnetized spinning disk magnets

Please keep the discussion coherent and at a decent debating level.
He wrote "radial" - not "axial".
...in a Faraday Homopolar configuration.

There you go again.
He wrote "synchronous", not "Homopolar"
The magnetic fields are stationary.

Why are they stationary if their sources are non-uniform and moving?
Anyway, Milehigh specifically wrote about changing magnetinc fields, not about moving or non-stationary fields.
Conflation of "changing" with "moving" confuses direction with magnitude and brings the discussion to a new lower level.
This statement seems to imply that the magnetic field is non-constant after all.  According to the statement above, the field "grows" as a result of some spinning motion.
Is there a relationship of the flux or flux density to time or angular position?  Is this relationship periodic or monotonic?


@Itzu,


Please continue to keep posting here on this thread. I plan to open a new thread to continue the Bayles discussion.


@Verpies,


I'll catch up with you on the new thread. You're way off base in your ridicule bub. Just because Milehigh said radial does not change the polarization from axial as it is. What are trying to pull? You sound like some kind of nut case. You obviously don't have any idea what you're talking about. I lost all respect for you over that last series of comments.

Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #160 on: March 13, 2014, 03:41:07 PM »
I used my PA in the following clip (changed the setup a little too), but this limits the frequency range till about 60KHz which could be a problem.
Since your fundamental standing wave frequency is around 12kHz you might be fine within this limit.

I was able to input >300V pp into the piezo without seeing anything special.
My 120W ultrasonic cleaner has 200VRMS across its piezo element and it can do a lot of damage.
BTW: The piezo predominantly is a voltage device but a regular speaker predominantly is a current device.  This distinction is not applicable to this experiment but is important to keep in mind for the future.

With the PA (>300V pp) there was a noticeable ac field which i could feel with my finger when touching the piezo.
This touching caused a greater response in the pickup coil, also when touching the pickup coil (to move it), there is a big influence on the amplitude of the signal (increase), which somehow does not seem right.
The piezo and its wires are working as a transmitter antenna and interfering with your sensors.  Change the driving wires to a flexible coax and shield the piezo with copper foil (all grounded bur not dampening acoustic vibrations of the piezo or the rods).

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #160 on: March 13, 2014, 03:41:07 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #161 on: March 13, 2014, 04:07:15 PM »
Just because Milehigh said radial does not change the polarization from axial as it is. What are trying to pull? You sound like some kind of nut case.
Just because I understood you differently from what you had in mind does not warrant you making Ad Hominem remarks about my sanity.

You do not express yourself precisely and your frequent use of colloquialisms and loose grammar leads to such confusion.
In this case, you should have directly stated that the magnetization of the disks is axial - not that he was "looking at" axial.  There is a difference.

I welcome criticism of my actions, analysis and ideas but personal statements as to what I am (Ad Hominem) are overboard.
One more remark about my person instead of my actions, analysis or ideas and you will be ad-blocked and completely ignored.
This is your only warning.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #162 on: March 13, 2014, 06:16:45 PM »
@Verpies,


Listen Bub, I have a M.F.A in Professional writing from USC, I have a published book in all the world's libraries and am extremely literate. You can't understand what you read, and I'll be the one doing ad blacking smart guy! You're just another stinking know it all like those other conceited jerks. You can shove it!

Offline synchro1

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #163 on: March 13, 2014, 06:56:34 PM »
@Itsu,


         Very nice improvised soloution. Removing material from the ferrite rod would be senseless. Thanks for the video link:  Magnetostrikci├│ ? I wonder what frequency he's vibrating his transducer at?


That turns Verpies admonition against attaching the transducer to the rod end into rubbish too!

Offline verpies

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Re: Acoustic magnetic generator.
« Reply #164 on: March 13, 2014, 07:08:43 PM »
Removing material from the ferrite rod would be senseless.
That statement has no justification.
I have stated the reason for a shallow groove in the previous posts clearly: A friction-maximizing sand holder, that does not involve dampening materials.  Also, extensional l.waves are reflected from the surface of the rod and are much weaker above the surface than under the surface.

That turns Verpies admonition against attaching the transducer to the rod end into rubbish too!
This statement demonstrates your lack of discernment between qualitative and quantitative objections.

You're just another stinking know it all like those other conceited jerks. You can shove it!
Note, that I have never called you names.
I will filter out your posts from now on - you've been warned.

 

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