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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 403867 times)

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #750 on: March 08, 2014, 12:05:53 AM »
I understand what you are doing, and why you are doing it, and I approve. I am not trying to discourage you.

What I am doing is pointing out that you are leaving honest Wayne Travis a huge hole to wriggle out of.

Just like you tell me that the Cartesian Diver is irrelevant to the real Zed (it isn't) and that the spring-loaded automatic bollard doesn't do what you have been showing the single Zed does (it does)..... honest Wayne Travis will look at your completed analysis, and will respond in one of two ways. Or maybe both.

If your "OU" numbers hold up in the correctly-modelled spreadsheet (they won't) he will say "I told you so all along" and if your numbers do NOT hold up once you've modelled correctly and re-inserted reality in the form of masses, compressibility, viscosity and so on.... he will simply say, "Thanks fellas... but the real Zed, which is now horizontal and which we call the Rotary Taz.... doesn't work that way at all, you have left out some important steps and it's really too bad you aren't worth your salt. I'll pray for you anyway."

Cool.  I'm glad you approve of what we're doing.

I don't think I'm doing any of this with the expressed purpose of only helping Mr. Wayne.  Of course, if it is all true, and Mr. Wayne has been trying all along to help us all see the reality of his discovery, I would be honored to shake his hand.

I think I am doing it only to know the truth.  And therefore stop the open hostility in the forums on the subject.  The math either proves it or disproves it.  And I have seen no indication that the math has been rigorously performed so far.  So, why not do it?  I thank you and MarkE for your contributions to this effort.

And Minnie is right.  It is a lot of work, isn't it?

Finally, if anything extraordinary is found, we are not done, are we?  I think you have an excellent Feynman quote to present again?

Cheers,

M.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #750 on: March 08, 2014, 12:05:53 AM »

Offline mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #751 on: March 08, 2014, 01:02:12 AM »
Hello Mondrasek,

I just caught up on the reading ..... I logged in first - that left three posts per page lol

I saw your last Post.

......................

Let me tell you what I will do when the Math is done: Nothing.

I have already discovered and met some pretty cool people.

I am very honored by you and the others work, and I look forward to meeting each of you in person.

.......

Sybil concerns me not.







Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #752 on: March 08, 2014, 01:06:10 AM »
MarkE what you said in post 766 was this:

4.653 is the single riser.  I was answering your question with respect to the three riser.

This misdirected me to look at the 3-layer.  You did not say it was a transcription error or typo.  You said you were now talking about the 3-layer.

As for the rest of the Energies due to columns of water that you then refer to, I did not see them on your graphics or my 3-layer calcs that I thought you had directed me to move over to.  But I also did check my calcs for the no-pod, single layer and also did not find them.  I see that you are able to point out these values on your graphic, but again, we have a problem.  The Energies due to the columns of water do not match my own calcs for the no-pod, single riser Analysis.  My calcs and yours do match exactly for the 3-layer, so I am confident we are both calculating those the correct way.  But I do not get your values at all for the no-pod, single layer.  I have checked them several times now.  Could you please double check your calcs for the Energy in the system due to just the water columns for State 1?  The value I get is ~.879mJ.
ETA: Ran this through the spreadsheet and made some very slight corrections to the numbers and the drawing.
Here I check the work and make any needed corrections:

E = integral (F*ds).
K1 = pi/4*pWater*G0
The energy in the water columns at the end of State 1 is:
EST1 = 0.5*K1*(116+100)*32.52 = 877uJ.  The 1.117mJ on the graphic neglected to multiply the diameters by pi/4.
it also neglected the component 0.5*K1*(108)*12 but that amounts to a miniscule 0.4uJ, which changes the total to 878uJ.

State 2
The energy in the water columns at the end of State 2 is:
EST2 = 0.5*K1*((116*59.2932) + (108*12) + (100*30.1572) + (84*372)
EST2 = K1*261,559
EST2 = 2.011mJ
EADDEDST1_ST2 = 1.133mJ

Lifting force end of State 2:
Fup_st2 = Pressure * Area
Pup_st2 = pWater*G0*(59.293 - 1.420) = 566.5Pa
Fup_st2 = 566.5Pa*pi/4*(0.028m)2 = 0.3488N

Lifting rate State 2 to State 3:
HCHANGE_OUTER_per_mm_lift = 282/116 = 6.759mm/mm
HCHANGE_INNER_per_mm_lift = (282-108)/100 = 6.760mm/mm
HeadCHANGE_per_mm_lift= 13.519mm/mm
PCHANGE_per_mm_lift = pWater*G0*13.519mm/mm = -132.3Pa/mm
FCHANGE_per_mm_lift = -132.3Pa/mm*pi/4*(0.028m)2 = -81.485N/m
Lift distance = Fup_st2/FCHANGE_per_mm_lift = 4.281mm

State 3
EST3_INTERNAL = 0.5*K1*((116*30.3532) + (108*(4.282+1)2) + (100*30.3662) + (84*372))
EST3_INTERNAL = K1*158,545
EST3_INTERNAL = 1.219mJ
EST2_to_ST3_INTERNAL = 2.011mJ - 1.219mJ = 0.792mJ
EST3_EXTERNAL = Fup_st2*Lift distance + 0.5*FCHANGE_per_mm_lift*Lift distance2
EST3_EXTERNAL = 0.3488N*4.282mm + 0.5*-81.485N/m*2*(4.282mm)2
EADDEDST1_ST2 = 0.747mJ
EST3_TOTAL = 1.967mJ

Even with a perfectly idealized load, the process remains lossy:  0.747mJ theoretically recovered from 0.792mJ internal energy change.  So, why with a perfectly matched load did we fail to transfer 100% of the internal energy change?  The answer is still:  N*(X/N)2 < X2 for all N > 1.0.  The matched load reduce N close to 1.0 but cannot get there because of the fluid volume that increases under the riser wall.  If the riser wall is made very, very thin, then the efficiency can approach that of an ordinary spring.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 09:01:55 AM by MarkE »

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #752 on: March 08, 2014, 01:06:10 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #753 on: March 08, 2014, 01:11:44 AM »
In the real ZED the production is the lift from the risers, in the version in the videos that lift is resisted by a hydraulic ram that charges up the external accumulator.

So the internal forces raise the risers, the risers moving up move the production ram and compress the fluid in the ram and that fluid passes into the accumulator and gets stored, from there it is distributed to the flow assist rams and they apply there force against the lever connecting the two bags together.

In the "ideal ZED" this part is not being considered.
First anything that is not external output does not constitute "production" in the ordinary use of the term.  Since the risers cycle internally within the ZED they do not constitute any energy delivered to the outside world.

Each of these subprocesses you mention is under unity.  The product of any set of numbers where all the number are less than one is less than the smallest of the numbers.  IOW, each of the processes imposes additional loss upon the system.

The "ideal ZED" has less loss than any 'real' ZED.  The "ideal ZED" is fundamentally an under unity device.  Therefore the less efficient 'real ZED' is also underunity.  QED.


Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #754 on: March 08, 2014, 01:18:48 AM »
Here I check the work and make any needed corrections:

E = integral (F*ds).
K1 = pi/4*pWater*G0
The energy in the water columns at the end of State 1 is:
EST1 = 0.5*K1*(116+100)*32.52 = 877uJ.  The 1.117mJ on the graphic neglected to multiply the diameters by pi/4.
it also neglected the component 0.5*K1*(108)*12 but that amounts to a miniscule 0.4uJ, which changes the total to 878uJ.

State 2
The energy in the water columns at the end of State 2 is:
EST2 = 0.5*K1*((116*59.2932) + (108*12) + (100*30.1572) + (84*372)
EST2 = K1*261,559
EST2 = 2.011mJ
EADDEDST1_ST2 = 1.133mJ

Lifting force end of State 2:
Fup_st2 = Pressure * Area
Pup_st2 = pWater*G0*(59.293 - 1.420) = 566.5Pa
Fup_st2 = 566.5Pa*pi/4*(0.028m)2 = 0.3488N

Lifting rate State 2 to State 3:
HCHANGE_OUTER_per_mm_lift = 282/116 = 6.759mm/mm
HCHANGE_INNER_per_mm_lift = (282-108)/100 = 6.760mm/mm
HeadCHANGE_per_mm_lift= 13.519mm/mm
PCHANGE_per_mm_lift = pWater*G0*13.519mm/mm = -132.3Pa/mm
FCHANGE_per_mm_lift = -132.3Pa/mm*pi/4*(0.028m)2 = -81.485N/m
Lift distance = Fup_st2/FCHANGE_per_mm_lift4.282mm

State 3
EST3_INTERNAL = 0.5*K1*((116*30.3532) + (108*(4.282+1)2) + (100*30.3662) + (84*372))
EST3_INTERNAL = K1*158,545
EST3_INTERNAL = 1.219mJ
EST2_to_ST3_INTERNAL = 2.011mJ - 1.219mJ = 0.792mJ
EST3_EXTERNAL = Fup_st2*Lift distance + 0.5*FCHANGE_per_mm_lift*Lift distance2
EST3_EXTERNAL = 0.3488N*4.282mm 0.5*-81.485N/m*2*(4.282mm)2
EADDEDST1_ST2 = 0.747mJ
EST3_TOTAL = 1.967mJ

The process remains lossy:  0.747mJ theoretically recovered from 0.792mJ internal energy change.  So, why with a perfectly matched load did we fail to transfer 100% of the internal energy?  The answer is still:  N*(X/N)2 < X2 for all N > 1.0.  The matched load reduce N close to 1.0 but cannot get there because of the fluid volume that increases under the riser wall.  If the riser wall is made very, very thin, then the efficiency can approach that of an ordinary spring.

Thank you MarkE.  And I hope you have a peaceful weekend!  Please do and let's reconvene next week?

BTW, about your ID vs. OD argument on how to properly calculate the buoyant Force on a riser.  It is, in fact, the OD that is needed in your calculation.  Since the riser is ASSUMED weightless by having a Specific Gravity = 0, the riser material is, in effect, just air.  So the riser, and the air inside, is just a big bubble.  Ergo the OD needs to be applied to your buoyant Force calculations.

Gonna sign off now.  Y'all have a wonderful evening.

Cheers,

M.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #754 on: March 08, 2014, 01:18:48 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #755 on: March 08, 2014, 01:25:12 AM »
Thank you MarkE.  And I hope you have a peaceful weekend!  Please do and let's reconvene next week?

BTW, about your ID vs. OD argument on how to properly calculate the buoyant Force on a riser.  It is, in fact, the OD that is needed in your calculation.  Since the riser is ASSUMED weightless by having a Specific Gravity = 0, the riser material is, in effect, just air.  So the riser, and the air inside, is just a big bubble.  Ergo the OD needs to be applied to your buoyant Force calculations.

Gonna sign off now.  Y'all have a wonderful evening.

Cheers,

M.
I conceded the ID vs OD point earlier.  The math you see before you reflects OD.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #756 on: March 08, 2014, 01:26:18 AM »
This has me a little confused.

If the risers moving up interact with an external ram, is that not delivering the work to the outside?
Does it?  What does it deliver energy to that leaves the system?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #756 on: March 08, 2014, 01:26:18 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #757 on: March 08, 2014, 01:35:38 AM »
Mond, what makes you accuse me of being "hostile"?

Is it the fact that I object to being lied to, er, I mean told things that weren't true, didn't turn out to be true, and aren't true now and aren't going to turn out to be true in the future, by a self-professed Christian saviour of mankind? That I object to being told that I and others that I respect, who have demonstrated abilities, are "not worth our salt" because we insist that honest Travis provide actual data to support his claims? Or perhaps it is because I don't like having simple questions dodged over and over, like "where's the 5hp self runner, do you have it or not" and "where's the three layer system that is clearly overunity by itself, and how do you measure that OU?" Perhaps my reactions to that kind of thing is why you think I am hostile. If so.... you are absolutely right.


If you or I made such claims, even without the overt Christian perspective.... would we not then be very happy, ecstatic even, to provide evidence in support of them, heading off all possible hostility from our critics?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #758 on: March 08, 2014, 01:37:29 AM »
Milehigh

Whether you accept it or not, I appreciate that you posted that, and I respect you for doing it in a professional manner. Anyway, just wanted you and the readers to know that. Nuff said. ;)

None of 'us' are perfect. Nobody has to get nasty to accomplish the goals they have here. Why it has to come to being like a kid being bullied on a school bus, day after day, is hard to understand. It happens quite often though. What words would any of you choose to describe the necessity of such behavior? Fun? For who?  The advantages of it seem oblique or just selfish indulgence. Not much good comes of it other than bitterness and knot in the tummy, for some.

Mags


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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #758 on: March 08, 2014, 01:37:29 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #759 on: March 08, 2014, 02:09:50 AM »
Milehigh

Whether you accept it or not, I appreciate that you posted that, and I respect you for doing it in a professional manner. Anyway, just wanted you and the readers to know that. Nuff said. ;)

None of 'us' are perfect. Nobody has to get nasty to accomplish the goals they have here. Why it has to come to being like a kid being bullied on a school bus, day after day, is hard to understand. It happens quite often though. What words would any of you choose to describe the necessity of such behavior? Fun? For who?  The advantages of it seem oblique or just selfish indulgence. Not much good comes of it other than bitterness and knot in the tummy, for some.

Mags
There is a vast gap between:  Human error, difference of opinion, and lies told to collect funds from gullible investors.  Everyone makes mistakes.  People often see things differently for any number of reasons.  But it takes a deliberate choice to go into the business of swindling one's neighbors. 

There was not so long ago a perp by the name of Urban Casavant who had phony diamond mines.  He printed all kinds of stock illegally and dumped it in the market.  He hyped up his "diamond mines" and "reserves", while telling investors that the stock was suffering only temporarily by naked shorts selling shares they did not own.  The real source of shares was Urban himself.  Now, this loathsome crook, he had at least one compatriot who made it his business to promote the worthless stock on Christian oriented chat boards.  The general message was:  "You've lived a humble life.  This investment opportunity is God's way of rewarding you."  Investors in Urban's companies pretty much lost one hundred cents on the dollar.

In this thread, despite frequent visits from proponents of HER/Zydro's preposterous claims, we find no information that supports those claims.  We do find a lot of hand waving and suggestion.  We have been told variations of the fraudulent pitch from "The Emperor's New Clothes".  We have been frequently treated to walls of text that amount to so much baffle gab.  Does any of this promote research into anything that even has a chance of being viable?  For all of the details and nuances, the machinery described even in its optimum form that machinery is outperformed by much smaller, cheaper, and simpler devices, like springs and bricks that are themselves not over unity.  If you are upset about disrespect, maybe you should consider how respectful it is to exclaim:  "Praise Jesus!" while picking someone's pocket.

Are events in motion?  We shall see.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #760 on: March 08, 2014, 02:27:36 AM »
Mond, what makes you accuse me of being "hostile"?

TK, I am just taking a quick look at this forum right now.  So I did not read anything past this, your first line.  But I was compelled to respond.

To be clear, I do not think you, personally, have been "hostile."  I do not accuse you of that at all.

And neither have I intentionally accused any individual of hostility.  If anyone took my postings that way, I sincerely apologize. 

It was not my intent to accuse anyone of any wrong doing.


From my own personal experience I have found that open, courteous, and openly honest dialogue is the only avenue to a mutually acceptable understanding between two parties.  That is all I was trying to convey with my previous comment.

I do sincerely apologize if I offended you, TK, or anyone else.  It was not my intention.

M.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #760 on: March 08, 2014, 02:27:36 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #761 on: March 08, 2014, 02:34:52 AM »
No worries mate, I am actually not so easily offended. It takes the likes of a LMM to do that, and even our honest correspondent in OK fails to manage to rise... or sink, or float, whatever.... to that level.

 8)

And likewise friend mondrasek, I do not intend offense towards thee.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #762 on: March 08, 2014, 02:37:43 AM »
The hydraulic fluid in the external accumulator.  This could be used to drive a device that would perform external work.

The fluid comes back,, but not the pressure it was delivered with.

BINGO! Give that man a prize.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #763 on: March 08, 2014, 03:13:35 AM »
The hydraulic fluid in the external accumulator.  This could be used to drive a device that would perform external work.

The fluid comes back,, but not the pressure it was delivered with.
Webby, take a magic marker and draw a box around the system.  Then account for what goes in and what comes out.  If something doesn't release energy to outside your box, it is just spinning its internal machinery.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #764 on: March 08, 2014, 03:34:39 AM »
Not to sound redundant, but the pressure can leave the system when the fluid under pressure interacts with something along the lines of a motor.
Not to sound redundant.... but how then do you get that low pressure fluid, after the interaction with something along the lines of a motor.... how do you get it back into the Zeds?

 

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