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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 481389 times)

Offline powercat

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #720 on: March 07, 2014, 05:54:04 PM »
PC, Mark Dansie posted much more recently, and in this thread.  Why don't you quote from there?  It should be his most recent thoughts on the ZED topic.

Feel free to quote what you like, I am making the point going back two years  that Wayne cannot produce what he claims, the reason being- his device does not work, which is why he did not have it verified two years ago, what has changed since then has Wayne had his device verified,NO apparently he still believes it works, what a load of BS.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #720 on: March 07, 2014, 05:54:04 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #721 on: March 07, 2014, 06:02:23 PM »
Well John,, I end up needing about a 75% efficient lift.  I do not have the full understanding of the system either, just my hands on experience with what I got back out of the system while moving the reservoir back down after the lift weight was removed.

Back to MarkE's spring.

The spring analogy.

Sure, but lets set the spring up correctly.

The spring is mounted on a lever, that lever is operated to lift the spring up into contact with the weight, the lever is moved further to compress the spring to take the weight of the weight and then the lever is operated further lifting the weight.

This is closer to the ZED, and as is evident the spring that is compressed can be used to move the lever backwards and *assist* another lever to compress its own spring after the lift distance has been met.

The difference here is that the cost to lift the weight after the spring is compressed is fully paid for by the lever, not so in the ZED.
Arrange any combination of springs that you like and what you will find is that the efficiency increases as the percentage of stored energy transferred decreases.  The closer you make the ZED to a brick, the better it performs, until it becomes the virtual brick.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #722 on: March 07, 2014, 06:03:49 PM »
Feel free to quote what you like, I am making the point going back two years  that Wayne cannot produce what he claims, the reason being- his device does not work, which is why he did not have it verified two years ago, what has changed since then has Wayne had his device verified,NO apparently he still believes it works, what a load of BS.

That is fine.  But I think you do Mark Dansie a disservice by misrepresenting him when you quote from two years ago.  His opinions may have changed since that time.  And since he went to the effort of posting his current opinions, those are the ones that should be presented.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #722 on: March 07, 2014, 06:03:49 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #723 on: March 07, 2014, 06:14:33 PM »
Thanks Webby,

The spring was meant to be just another puppet rabbit trail like:

The Pink
Unicorn
Bollard
Hereon or what ever..
Brick
Rock
Gravity switch

and feel free to add the the misdirection list..

But as fate would have it - the analogy can be corrected - SMile

And Your spring correction is not too far from reality - Make one change - the ZED Spring has a impressive attribute missed...

It gets taller as it is compressed..................... how that for counter intuitive......

That's what I shared with Mark on his second visit - we push down to go up smile - makes the input a double use.

Now - give a an inventor worth his salt that can not use it to circumvent gravity ,,,,,,,,

Wayne


to elude the obvious - but if you want to cover
The "ideal ZED" once 'charged' in State 2, emulates a compression spring with a rate of 0.48N/mm.  The relaxed position is at full extension.  It can compress up to 2.492mm.  Ordinary compression springs do not require the elaborate and lossy set-up that the "ideal ZED" requires.  Of course the compression spring is easily made more than 1000 times smaller, is almost completely insensitive to orientation and doesn't evaporate or leak.

Did you hear about the inventor who discovered a remarkable gravity circumvention device?  Using his device it is possible to lift objects of 2 tons (or sometimes even more) using a force of only 1 ton, and once lifted by 2 feet no additional force is required.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #724 on: March 07, 2014, 06:15:16 PM »
I have always thought that the "authentic" descriptions of the operation of a dual zed system included removing "something" from the "up" zed at the top of its travel, or perhaps during the sinking. This, I thought, was the "production". The sinking doesn't go all the way so has to be "Flow Assisted" by part of whatever the production might be, and the rest of the production is left over for use outside the zed system.

So there has been talk of removing weights when the Zed is at the top, then somehow getting it to sink again, of fluid transfers of water or hydraulic fluid or incompressibolonium gas or whatever, etc etc. First there is a weight, then there is no weight, then there is.  So I'd like to know in what form, exactly, this "production" is, and when, exactly, it is removed from the producing zed, and what happens to it after it has done its external work. Obviously, the Zeds that are being analyzed by LarryC, Mondrasek and Mark E cannot be the true and holy Zeds because nothing is taken from them to be used elsewhere.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #724 on: March 07, 2014, 06:15:16 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #725 on: March 07, 2014, 06:19:08 PM »



 Quite absurd, educated adults debating for years whether it's possible
  to get energy out of something that's dead as a stone.
  I'm somewhat confused by mrwayne's statement that we push it down
  and it goes up.
                       John.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #726 on: March 07, 2014, 06:25:12 PM »
Lets see if the analysis so far can answer one question.

Does the nested system behave exactly the same as a single piston hydraulic jack?

No.

Why?

With the system under consideration the full input work can be applied and stored for any time period before allowing the lift of the risers to do work.
The scheme operates as a linear spring.  I don't know about you, but if I am lifting something heavy like a car, I prefer that it lift directly as a hydraulic jack does than to lift it through a low rate spring where it can bob up and down.  You may feel differently.
Quote

You can not do this with a hydraulic jack?

No.
Why would you want impair a hydraulic jack this way?  If you want a spring, then use a spring.  If you want a jack use a jack.
Quote

Can the hydraulic jack be modified to emulate this behavior?

Yes.

How?

With the addition of an EXTERNAL part to store the input.
Again, if you want a spring, then use a spring.
Quote

It is the last question that substantiates the first answer.

Now on to the polluted hydraulic fluid.

A hydraulic jack works because it uses an incompressible fluid medium combined with a fluid lever system.

The air in this consideration has been stipulated to be incompressible, ergo it does not hamper the operation of the hydraulic jack in any way.
That is absolutely not true.  The different SGs of the two materials are what gives the "ideal ZED" key properties and key deficiencies.  In terms of a hydraulic jack the "air" is a pollutant.
Quote

It actually would be a very good thing for NASCAR,, the loss of weight would help the pit crew by making the jack they use to change tires in the middle of  race lighter,, that could be worth money :)
Go ahead and try to sell the concept of replacing homogenous hydraulic fluid with a distribution of inhomogenous insoluable fluids to any hydraulic engineer.
Quote

So, MarkE's inference that the incompressible air inhibits function is false.  His statement that the fluid is polluted with this air is true,, so it may be factual but it has no impact at all.
I didn't infer.  I stated flat out that the cost of the "air" pollutant is lost efficiency.  A hydraulic piston using a homogenous fluid is more efficient than the "ideal ZED".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #726 on: March 07, 2014, 06:25:12 PM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #727 on: March 07, 2014, 06:25:30 PM »
That is fine.  But I think you do Mark Dansie a disservice by misrepresenting him when you quote from two years ago.  His opinions may have changed since that time.  And since he went to the effort of posting his current opinions, those are the ones that should be presented.
If you had red his current post, you would see that he stands by his words of two years ago regarding verification.  I'm not looking to have an argument with you, as so far you haven't claimed to have a working free energy device which you have repeatedly failed to have verified or failed to show a continuous running model, for over 3 years.
So best of luck with your research maybe you will discover how to make the device work, because Wayne clearly cannot.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #728 on: March 07, 2014, 06:30:00 PM »
MarkE,

I do not care so much for looking at paintings,, but I do enjoy watching an artist paint.

Watching your analysis improving as input to you is provided is like watching an artist paint.

I am learning from our interaction and I do appreciate that.
The Mondrasek "ideal ZED" analysis is done.  Once charged in State 2, it emulates a linear compression spring.  State 2 preloads the spring.  Using Mondrasek's specifications, the preload is 1.2N, and the spring rate is 0.48N/mm.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #728 on: March 07, 2014, 06:30:00 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #729 on: March 07, 2014, 06:43:36 PM »
MarkE, thank you so much for all your hard work!  I think it must be in this last step that I have made my mistake.  I'm looking at it now, but found a discrepancy between our work.  It might be a small miss on your part, or I am making another mistake, so I wanted to clarify.

I am finding the riser in the no-pod, single riser example at State 2 to be displacing 35.6234 cm3 of water and should therefore have an FSTART = 0.34884N.  Can you please clarify if I am missing a step?
The single riser ZED has a total uplift force of:  pWater*G0*(59.293mm - 1.420mm)*pi/4*26mm2 = 0.30078N.  You are apparently applying 28mm2, the OD of the riser, instead of the ID.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #730 on: March 07, 2014, 06:46:57 PM »
Okay, I am lost here.  The lift was 4.68536mm.  Did I miss something?

Or 4.653mm by your math.  Probably due to the use of different constants for water density and gravity?
4.653 is the single riser.  I was answering your question with respect to the three riser.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #730 on: March 07, 2014, 06:46:57 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #731 on: March 07, 2014, 06:53:57 PM »
PC, Mark Dansie posted much more recently, and in this thread.  Why don't you quote from there?  It should be his most recent thoughts on the ZED topic.
Well there is post #572

Quote
So, I have not seen the data that convinces me, and I do hope to get to see and assist in evaluating a proof of concept one day. However until that day arrives I will continue my public stance as of interest but not supported by any data I have seen to date. Others who work with Wayne, many with engineering qualifications do believe in what they are doing and their calculations. I am a very simple person, and do not get involved in such matters until a working prototype is running run and data has been collected with acceptable methodologies.

You can read the totality of the post.  I think that the above paragraph sums it up.  He remains interested, but not because there is any data that supports the claims.  He hasn't seen any such data.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #732 on: March 07, 2014, 06:56:15 PM »
That is fine.  But I think you do Mark Dansie a disservice by misrepresenting him when you quote from two years ago.  His opinions may have changed since that time.  And since he went to the effort of posting his current opinions, those are the ones that should be presented.
I do not see anywhere that Mark Dansie has stated improved optimism since the time he stated what PowerCat quoted.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #733 on: March 07, 2014, 07:00:08 PM »


 Quite absurd, educated adults debating for years whether it's possible
  to get energy out of something that's dead as a stone.
  I'm somewhat confused by mrwayne's statement that we push it down
  and it goes up.
                       John.
Wayne Travis' statement apparently refers to the fact that the "charged" ZED in State 2 rises to reach a lower energy state in State 3.  Wayne apparently represents that something that exactly emulates the action of a linear compression spring is somehow unusual in its behavior.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #734 on: March 07, 2014, 07:05:10 PM »
The single riser ZED has a total uplift force of:  pWater*G0*(59.293mm - 1.420mm)*pi/4*26mm2 = 0.30078N.  You are apparently applying 28mm2, the OD of the riser, instead of the ID.

Of course I am using the OD instead of the ID.  I am calculating the lift force due to BUOYANCY.  The correct water displacement value is achieved when you consider the water displaced by the air inside the riser AND the wall thickness.  That means you use the OD.

If you want to calculate the buoyancy Force on a fully submerged 1m3 cube that has a wall thickness of 100mm throughout, is it not displacing 1m3?  Or do you want to calculate the displacement using only the remaining internal volume?

 

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