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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 403770 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #450 on: March 04, 2014, 08:09:40 PM »
You working banker's hours now Wayne ol boy? Or is Tuesday your golf day?

Kind of cold today isn't it? Did your zeds freeze up yet? How are you keeping warm, I wonder. I've got my feet propped up on an old oscilloscope, for warmth. Of course you are probably using a Zed to warm up your ranchstyle home and your spiffy down town laboratory.

Aren't you?

How are they keeping that big church at TBC warm, I wonder. A nice 50kW electric furnace would probably fill the bill quite well, don't you think?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #450 on: March 04, 2014, 08:09:40 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #451 on: March 04, 2014, 08:11:08 PM »
Here's a VALID post, Wayne ol boy.

You have claimed that which you do not have. You cannot show your own data or any physical evidence that show you now, or ever did, have what you claim.


Offline mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #452 on: March 04, 2014, 08:23:52 PM »
Larry,

Can you show on from one of your Dual three layer ZEDS spreadsheets the:

Of the Hydro assist only - the "Pv in "

and using the work out "load lifted" - converted to the same P and show the new volume.

Thanks

 

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #452 on: March 04, 2014, 08:23:52 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #453 on: March 04, 2014, 10:17:54 PM »



Hi,
    down on the farm we use plenty of telescopic hydraulic rams, which is essentially a ZED.
    Of course what happens is the pressure ALWAYS operates the largest diameter part
    of the ram first.
        The pod thingy must just act according to Archimedes, the ZED wouldn't do much for
     us as a useful ram because even a pathetic bit of pressure would cause the fluid to
     spill.
        When machines get old and you get slippage in the main pump, when the fluid gets
     warm the whole thing becomes a pain in the arse,dreadfully slow and weak as a kitten.
        Mondrasek probably knows more about ZED's than Wayne himself and his motley crew.
      I've tried hard to find a bit of excess energy,but I can't, so we still need someone to
      show us the way!
         Got to go and feed orphan lambs, hope to find the proof when I come back in.
      Thanks to Mond for starting this, I know you're fed up that it's wandering off topic
      most of the time. Iv'e really enjoyed the ride, especially mrwayne's waffling, he deserves
      an award for rambling on about absolutely nothing,
                                                                       John

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #454 on: March 04, 2014, 10:41:32 PM »
Minnie, here is the ZED from MarkE's State 3.  But with only the outer riser represented.  Can it rest in this state?  Or does the Riser need to move up (the air inside is incompressible) until the water level inside and outside are equal height?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #454 on: March 04, 2014, 10:41:32 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #455 on: March 04, 2014, 11:33:10 PM »
Apples to oranges MarkE.

Push the risers down and that pushes the water up.

What constraint is stopping the pod and risers from lifting further in your state 3 drawing?
Are you still rejecting the Wayne Travis approved stipulation by Mondaresk?
Quote

The water and air are free to move and the pod and risers are weightless.  AR7 allows for outside air to enter the system.

Are you actually saying that the actual total lift of the outside riser would be  2.5906mm if allowed to move freely.
That is what one set of calculations show.  You are free to show work that contends a different answer.
Quote

The lift of the pod and risers will happen even with a 99.9% resistance placed against them, they may move slow but rate has nothing to do with energy, remember.
Excuse me what is a 99.9% resistance and where was it stipulated?
Quote

Again MarkE, what is stopping the pod and risers from lifting, I have shown, and you have shown, that it is not a volume issue, so what is it.
Please answer my question about force.  Do you contend that the restraints that prevent movement impart energy or not?

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #456 on: March 04, 2014, 11:33:16 PM »



  Hi,
     Mond seeing that the air is incompressible and the riser has no weight it should
     equalise, that's what I think, it ought to move up!
                                               John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #456 on: March 04, 2014, 11:33:16 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #457 on: March 04, 2014, 11:37:30 PM »
Minnie, here is the ZED from MarkE's State 3.  But with only the outer riser represented.  Can it rest in this state?  Or does the Riser need to move up (the air inside is incompressible) until the water level inside and outside are equal height?
Is the impossibly incompressible air inside also massless? Because the answer depends on that. And note that if the air were real air, compressible and obeying the combined Boyle-Charles law... it would behave completely differently, calling into question Wayne's claim that an incompressible fluid would work in lieu of air.

Also, some pages back mond, you once again said something about how the outside air pressure/volume needed to be considered. I don't think it does, as I said before, because the outside air pressure pushes on the top of the outer water layer with the same pressure no matter how high the level is up in the zed. The outer air, because of its huge volume, is like a "perfectly compressible" fluid: it stores no energy for you because you can "compress" it and its volume doesn't change, and vice versa, because the volume is so huge relative to the slight volume changes you can make with the outer layer of water in a Zed ringwall. I think.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #458 on: March 04, 2014, 11:40:18 PM »
Minnie, here is the ZED from MarkE's State 3.  But with only the outer riser represented.  Can it rest in this state?  Or does the Riser need to move up (the air inside is incompressible) until the water level inside and outside are equal height?
Let's start with your stipulation that in State 1 there is no uplift.  Is that or is that not your stipulation?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #458 on: March 04, 2014, 11:40:18 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #459 on: March 04, 2014, 11:55:50 PM »
Is the impossibly incompressible air inside also massless? Because the answer depends on that. And note that if the air were real air, compressible and obeying the combined Boyle-Charles law... it would behave completely differently, calling into question Wayne's claim that an incompressible fluid would work in lieu of air.

The incompressible air has an ASSUMED Specific Gravity = 0.

In fact, using a compressible fluid such as real air causes more losses due to the relationships described in the Ideal Gas Law, PV=nRT.  The change in V due to P does change the T, by creating heat when compressed.  It is a loss mechanism only and cannot be completely recovered.  So using two incompressible liquids leads to a better performance.  And the bigger the difference between those two fluid's Specific Gravity values, the better.

Also, some pages back mond, you once again said something about how the outside air pressure/volume needed to be considered. I don't think it does, as I said before, because the outside air pressure pushes on the top of the outer water layer with the same pressure no matter how high the level is up in the zed. The outer air, because of its huge volume, is like a "perfectly compressible" fluid: it stores no energy for you because you can "compress" it and its volume doesn't change, and vice versa, because the volume is so huge relative to the slight volume changes you can make with the outer layer of water in a Zed ringwall. I think.

I agree that the outside air pressure/volume does not need to be considered.  Except that the system is open to the outside air and so air can enter and exit the system freely as Pressure and Volume changes inside the system require to satisfy the Volume constraint of each internal fluid to remain constant.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #460 on: March 04, 2014, 11:59:47 PM »
Let's start with your stipulation that in State 1 there is no uplift.  Is that or is that not your stipulation?

Of course.  There is no head difference between the ID and OD surface on any riser.  The pod has no water in contact with it at all.  So all risers and the pod are being acted on by zero buoyant Forces.  Also, the sum of the buoyant Forces on all the risers and the pod is exactly zero.  There are zero Forces acting on the system and therefore zero motion would occur.

BTW, this is not a "stipulation."  This is a physical fact derived from the geometry and the assumption of incompressible fluids.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #460 on: March 04, 2014, 11:59:47 PM »
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Offline MT

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #461 on: March 05, 2014, 12:04:53 AM »
[size=78%]Not only does the two units of fluid on the right support the entire 13 units on the left, when you remove the two units from the right.... the liquid level only goes down a fraction of that input starting head height. Therefore you have a "net" production that does not reduce the "input" by nearly the same amount.[/size]
Hi TK,
I like your OU U-tube but where is OU? You compare force (input head) with work (net production). Recovering initial head will cost same energy you gained.
have a nice day,
MT

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #462 on: March 05, 2014, 12:28:26 AM »
MarkE is referencing the surface area of the bottom of the risers being a place where force can be exerted, as well as the volume that the down-tube of the risers occupy.

Webby1, there is no resultant lift Force due to the water pressure on the bottom surface of the risers.  If you tried to push a riser upwards from the bottom surface of the risers you would be defeated by the requirement that the volume of one of the fluids in the system would have to change.  Since that is impossible, there is no resultant lift Force.  The system as drawn is in complete equilibrium.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #463 on: March 05, 2014, 01:24:05 AM »
The incompressible air has an ASSUMED Specific Gravity = 0.



What air is being used that is 'incompressible?? ???

Mags

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #464 on: March 05, 2014, 01:30:13 AM »
What air is being used that is 'incompressible?? ???

Mags
The "air" that Mondrasek stipulated as an incompressible, massless fluid is being used in the model.

 

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