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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 432087 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #285 on: March 03, 2014, 01:00:05 AM »
MarkE, I am refusing anything but to discuss the MATH.  That is the only thing that matters, AFAIKS.

Principals of basic physics can be discussed later.  But first, please finish your math when you can.  Also, I am happy to help out since the volume changes in each annulus due to the changing height of the risers gave me a pause (once again).  Luckily I had encountered that issue a few years ago in the original discussion on this subject and was able to quickly recover again due to my previous "learning curve."  I'm happy to share that knowledge if it would expedite your own learning curve.  And, of course, I have no doubts that you can get by the tricky part that I found!  But the offer stands if it is useful.
Mondrasek I have presented you with math that irrefutably describes the physics.  It is a fluid model.  The added fluid volume redistributes across the cross section.  The incompressible water and "air" then redistribute accordingly.  There is no need for iterative calculations.  Ordinary algebra yields the values.  However, the character of the result is already known.  Yet, you refuse to discuss that indisputable fact.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #285 on: March 03, 2014, 01:00:05 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #286 on: March 03, 2014, 01:01:32 AM »
Am I confused or what?

I thought you were just a simple farmer who had friends that did the math you could not understand?  ;)

p.s. trying to create stories to support your other stories - is just.... TK (thats "Thumb Knitting" - or sock puppetry).

Gravity is Always on  :)

Wayne
Gravity is indeed "Always on", and contrary to your false claims it is always conservative.

Offline mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #287 on: March 03, 2014, 01:39:26 AM »
Gravity is indeed "Always on", and contrary to your false claims it is always conservative.

 :) Just finish the Math....... I don't expect anything or ask anything else from you.

and No, You are not done - you just set the simple baseline.

Stay on Subject.

Wayne




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #287 on: March 03, 2014, 01:39:26 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #288 on: March 03, 2014, 02:15:13 AM »
TK, I see no reason why you keep making things like this up, and stating them in the form of a fact that you will repeat as true unless some "proof" is given that they are false.

TK, you can bring up the "mondrasek wheel" (please Google it if you want to see it everybody) anytime you please.  But it appears you are trying to "shame" me for a mistake from my past, rather than discuss the Mathematical Analysis.  And you have tried that before.  And the last time you did so I think I was open and transparent about what happened during that occasion as well.  So why the thinly veiled threat again?  I openly admit I made a mistake then and that you were instrumental in helping me realize that fact.  I have thanked you multiple times for helping me to find the error in what first brought me to OU.com and "Energy research" in the first place.  So, what of it?

Well, "what of it" is that you seem to me to have a slight tendency to get overly excited about your mathematically-derived results, and the last time it happened it turned out that your math was good but your procedure and some of your assumptions were wrong. Right? And when, with a little prodding from me, you reconsidered your assumptions, did a little research into circularly rotating machines, moment arms and torques, and you re-did your calculation _procedure_ and came up with the true answer. Note that your math was always right, so your answers were right. They just weren't true reflections of reality because the "world" they existed in is not our world. I saw the first part happening, here, when you started talking about using Boyle's Law but you had already stipulated that both fluids in your contraption, er, Device Under Test, were incompressible. We headed that one off at the pass, good. Now, I told you earlier under what conditions I would do what MarkE is doing for LarryC, I think. I can't do that kind of deep work for free any more. That other time, I think you will agree that I worked pretty damn hard and long for you, probably saved you a boatload, or at least a small canoe load of cash, and had we encountered each other a bit earlier, even more might have stayed in your pocket where it belonged.
So I am worried about you, my friend. That other time, if you will pardon me saying so, was a bit trying on both of us, I recall you reporting loss of sleep, etc.
So.... we can accept that your MATH is probably right. After all  you are using a spreadsheet too, aren't you? So, since we know a priori that these claims are extremely unlikely to be true, that means if our model "confirms" the claims, it is likely, just as likely, to be in error. Probabilities, not certainties, of course, keep an open mind but don't let it blow skirts and overflow your earholes.
Reexamine your assumptions. Make sure you are using the _right_ mathematical model. GIGO applies very strongly here. Respect sig digs from real measurements, especially muchly. Review your calculus and vector mechanics. And have fun!

Fair enough?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #289 on: March 03, 2014, 02:26:20 AM »
So boys and girls exactly as stated for exactly the reasons stated, the "Ideal ZED" loses a great deal of its stored energy going from State 2 to State 3.  Why did the crack team at HER/Zydro think that an iterative solution is required to this simple fluid mechanics problem?  Why did Mondrasek refuse to discuss the exact physics that explains the loss going from State 2 to State 3?  Why does HER/Zydro insist that there is gain to be had in conservative and lossy behaviors?  Why does anyone think that lifting and dropping weights in any form leads to free energy?



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #289 on: March 03, 2014, 02:26:20 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #290 on: March 03, 2014, 02:42:01 AM »
Quote
Just finish the Math....... I don't expect anything or ask anything else from you.

and No, You are not done - you just set the simple baseline.

Stay on Subject.

More fake creepy pseudo social engineering from sinister minister Wayne.

He has the answer but he won't tell you, you have to work for it.  Sure.  Join the Wayne Drone Club and work hard for your secret decoder ring.  You all were born with and suffer from the sin of not knowing.  You are not worthy but keep working.  Eeeek!

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #291 on: March 03, 2014, 02:47:54 AM »
More fake creepy pseudo social engineering from sinister minister Wayne.

He has the answer but he won't tell you, you have to work for it.  Sure.  Join the Wayne Drone Club and work hard for your secret decoder ring.  You all were born with and suffer from the sin of not knowing.  You are not worthy but keep working.  Eeeek!
The hilarious part is that actually doing the math, which I have and is presented above in clear, easily audited form, refutes Wayne Travis' false claims.  The "Ideal ZED" is an energy roach motel.  One puts energy into it, gets no work out, and then has to replenish the lost energy.  It does make a little heater.  A piece of resistance wire is a lot cheaper.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #291 on: March 03, 2014, 02:47:54 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #292 on: March 03, 2014, 03:09:57 AM »
Wayne:

Quote
Lets score:

People who independently built ZED's and then analyzed to understand the system - are trying to share with the ones that would rather not.

And you have what to offer?




..........................................OK

Got it.

Wayne

Nobody understands the system, that's a lie.  Unless you define understanding the system as understanding that it will never work.

You see that big blank space up above?  That's what you have to offer, absolutely nothing.  You are just a huckster in a carnival selling junk, a magic elixir made from vinegar, ink, and beet juice.

And I am trying to get people to get it.  I could follow the derivations if I wanted to but I don't.  Just one look at your piece of crap is enough.  It's like when someone plays with coils and transistors and resistors and thinks that they have over unity.  You just have to look at the circuit to know that it's under unity.  Something about no combination of under unity electronic components can produce over unity.  Likewise, no combination of Tupperware containers in a Russian Doll nested configuration can produce over unity.

You still haven't answered Minnie.  Remember I asked you what the power output from your alleged device was and what form it was in?  You flatly refused to answer.

Likewise, you point to some people here that are trying to replicate and understand what you are doing, and you ask people to get guidance from them.  Then when MarkE and TK interact with the replicators it's so painfully obvious that they don't really know what they are doing and instead they are getting their guidance from MarkE and TK.  It's all so pathetic this fake drama that revolves around your fake proposition.

You are circling the drain, sinister minister Wayne.  You can't show anything working after five years and you yourself know it's all an impossible dream for the rabid believers.  It's all a confidence game.  You put on a brave face, because that's what people like you do, you simply don't have any other choice.  You are trapped on your own ride, and it's going to crash.  Perhaps you will get a visit from the FBI.  You are really not a good guy.

MileHigh

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #293 on: March 03, 2014, 03:20:03 AM »
This week marks one year since the FBI raided Dr. Dr. Dr. John P. Rohner Ph.D.' s offices with as he put it:  "guns drawn".  He had been running his ruse for about as long as Wayne Travis has been running his.  The sad part is that there are a good number of people who believed the stories and will see nothing from their investments.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #293 on: March 03, 2014, 03:20:03 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #294 on: March 03, 2014, 03:44:05 AM »
Oh, it can go on for much longer. Remember Sean McCarthy and Steorn, 25 million Euro burn over five or six years, nothing delivered, five or six different iterations, a flat-packable Ikea-stocked Orbo (just kidding about that one), e-orbo, SSOrbo, kinetica toy, all of that? A couple of genuine red herrings too, the Core Effect pulse motor and the magnetic bearings, improper use of test equipment to produce misleading results.... a secret inner circle private Steorn Knowledge Base club with layers like an onion .... he's still running around from pub to pub in Dubalin-town and has changed products, or rather imaginary products again.... and is burning still more cash with no end in sight.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #295 on: March 03, 2014, 03:54:18 AM »
IN fact, let's look at some parallels.

A charismatic and well-spoken PI. Check.
Serendipitous discovery of a claimed effect that would lead to OU. Check.
A couple of catchy names for the org and the device. Check.
Slick websites. Check.
Three blind mice engineers who endorse the claims. Check.
A demonstration device shown to invited parties from around the world. Check.
The demonstration device didn't quite work when every body came to see it. Check.
Larger more better devices in the works after the failed demonstrations. Check.
The original device that should have worked at the demos disappears, never to be heard from again. Check.
Several forum threads where, inexplicably, the PI engages with insignificant critics who nevertheless present cogent criticisms. Check.
A secret forum where the self-selected sycophants discuss their various projects with the PI. Check.
Yet nobody can make what the PI claimed was easily made. Check.
Obvious attempts by the PI to get help solving the various problems from the internet posters. Check.
TinselKoala is a thorn in their side and he gets banned from one forum and causes the PI to flee from another thread. Check.
Nevertheless TK produces apparatus that demonstrated their claimed effects. Check.
In some cases TK is even able to show the same kinds of bogus measurements that led to the original OU claim. Check.
Rigorous analysis by others proves mathematically that the PI is FOS. Check.
Nevertheless the PI and his org keeps on keeping on... Check.

As far as I can tell, the only major difference between Zydro and Steorn is that one  burns dollars and the other burns Euro, and the major difference between Travis and McCarthy is Guinness Stout.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #295 on: March 03, 2014, 03:54:18 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #296 on: March 03, 2014, 04:45:44 AM »
Oh, it can go on for much longer. Remember Sean McCarthy and Steorn, 25 million Euro burn over five or six years, nothing delivered, five or six different iterations, a flat-packable Ikea-stocked Orbo (just kidding about that one), e-orbo, SSOrbo, kinetica toy, all of that? A couple of genuine red herrings too, the Core Effect pulse motor and the magnetic bearings, improper use of test equipment to produce misleading results.... a secret inner circle private Steorn Knowledge Base club with layers like an onion .... he's still running around from pub to pub in Dubalin-town and has changed products, or rather imaginary products again.... and is burning still more cash with no end in sight.
I don't dispute that.  Some scams go on for many years.  Then again others get ripe enough and guys with badges and guns visit and they are in no mood for coffee and donuts.

Offline mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #297 on: March 03, 2014, 05:52:42 AM »
So boys and girls exactly as stated for exactly the reasons stated, the "Ideal ZED" loses a great deal of its stored energy going from State 2 to State 3.  Why did the crack team at HER/Zydro think that an iterative solution is required to this simple fluid mechanics problem?  Why did Mondrasek refuse to discuss the exact physics that explains the loss going from State 2 to State 3?  Why does HER/Zydro insist that there is gain to be had in conservative and lossy behaviors?  Why does anyone think that lifting and dropping weights in any form leads to free energy?

Monderask - I hope you do not mind,

MarkE,

The Ideal Analysis gets the calcs in your math right. Well Done.

I will act as you were never told the states - for sake of time.

So lets get your states set up, and in order.

...........

Conditions
ZED A Sunk remaining head due to riser weight and any added weight - ZED A  will be the receiving ZED,

ZED B is at the end of delivering a load and in the raised position - and was not allowed to Bob up after the load was removed.

.................

State one - Start with sunk - still head remaining - equal to the weight of the risers - and any additional load. (additional load is sometimes used to reduce time by reducing expansion and contraction during cycles)
p.s. Adding weight is counter intuitive - most people assume adding weight induces losses

Lesson to be learned - trying to achieve Ideal usage results in self determined conservative process.

The next state is post free flow - this is where the other ZED A and B have equalized between the stroked ZED and the sunk ZED. No riser movement in either ZED - only fluid and pressure.

Note: Free flow results in equalized pressure - but not equalized volume.

The next State is changing from Free flow too "precharge"

Full precharge is the end of the state between free flow and enough buoyancy to nuetralize the determined load and no riser movement either ZED.

The process to get to the full precharge state - two inputs are utilized :

One - the continued consumption of pressure from the ZED B - and the hydro assist.

The hydro assist adds enough pressure - that when combined with the exhuast from the other ZED - reaches load neutrality (buoyancy). This is full precharge for ZED A.

Note: ZED B will not sink until the stored head has dropped below nuetrality of the risers and any added weight.

The Hydro Assist continues to be combined with the Pressure from ZED B - the input cost is the differance between the sinking ZED pressure and the stroking pressure required.

The next state is the Production Stroke of ZED A. ZED A stroking and ZED B sunk is the first half of a Dual ZED cycle - the process repeats in the other direction - notice I did not say reverses.

.................

To understand Stroke - you must determine both the proper load and the proper stroke.

The proper load is the lift safely available at the determined end of stroke.

Iterations are helpful..... I will give you a rule of thumb - Do not make the stroke longer than 1/11 the height of the ZED.
(another counter intuitive - short stroke is a more efficient process)

Use your baseline calculator already prepared to determine what the load is at that height - and that is a good load - presuming riser weight and any added weight has already been considered.

.........................

Unlike the states Mark described - the precharge and stroke is only released into the other ZED - not bobbed up or consumed as production.

The transfer of the precharge and Stroke is made mechanically more efficient as Webby described and posted two of our methods.

but you do not need to add those improvements to find the outcome.


.......................

Last notes - when the full precharge is reached - any additional volume input into the ZED A results in production - so once precharge is hit - no consumption of the previous pressure occurs - the ZED B hits bottom at the end of the production stroke on ZED A.

In simple observation - the true cost of a stroke half cycle is all of the Hydro assist - which is also the stroking Pv ZED A, minus the sinking ZED B Pv, and then repeat for a full cycle.

The production cycle is both ZEDS having produced once and combined.

A full cycle is a return of ZED A to "Sunk.   

MarkE - if you do understand these States - you should be able to see how we transfer two sets of PV left and right - not consuming that value and truely reducing the total input cost - the remaining input cost is the hydro assist.

Lastly - the Hydro Assist can be a external input - or powered by the Production leaving excess. When you determine the cost of the Hydro Assist versus the production - you will understand why I have been so patient.

The Excess or Net per half cycle is no more than the value between the Pv sinking and the production - Not magical - but free.

Wayne

Offline mrwayne

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #298 on: March 03, 2014, 05:56:18 AM »
The hilarious part is that actually doing the math, which I have and is presented above in clear, easily audited form, refutes Wayne Travis' false claims.  The "Ideal ZED" is an energy roach motel.  One puts energy into it, gets no work out, and then has to replenish the lost energy.  It does make a little heater.  A piece of resistance wire is a lot cheaper.

Good math - your not done yet.

Wayne

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #299 on: March 03, 2014, 06:01:29 AM »
Quote
Lastly - the Hydro Assist is the external input - which can be powered by the Production.
Is there really any need to say more?

 

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