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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 403901 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #225 on: March 01, 2014, 06:21:08 PM »
So are you saying that your three layer system is the same one that Travis refers to in the famous quote? It isn't something _he has_, a real tangible object,  but is actually only something that exists in the spreadsheet you have calculated?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #225 on: March 01, 2014, 06:21:08 PM »

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #226 on: March 01, 2014, 06:31:38 PM »
So are you saying that your three layer system is the same one that Travis refers to in the famous quote? It isn't something _he has_, a real tangible object,  but is actually only something that exists in the spreadsheet you have calculated?

No, I have no idea what system Mr. Travis would have been referring to in that "famous quote."  I prepared my analysis model(s) as described to you earlier.

All of the necessary dimensions are included in the posted drawings.  You, or anyone else, can see if what is presented it true or not.  The math is relatively simple, though tedious.  I can run through a complete 3-layer ZED analysis in about 3 hours, if I'm able to concentrate.  And that is with triple checking each step by one method or another.  If I was not error prone, I could probably cut it down to less than 2 hours.

I am not using any equations in the spreadsheet where I record the data except simple summation for several of the double and triple checks.  All the calculations are run on a physical Casio calculator and then logged in the spreadsheet.  So errors are frequent in my work and forces the necessary double and triple checks.

Offline LarryC

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #227 on: March 01, 2014, 08:09:29 PM »
hi larry

did  you scale the pod height ,water height, .. etc  in this picture?
Hi Marsing,


No, it's main purpose is just to show a close approximation of water level and Pod / Riser movement. In Wayne's old model, the pod was 30" diameter and height was 72". There are many combinations of dimensions and this it not the current design. We use very complex spreadsheets with VBA code to determine the best combination. The spreadsheets shown are very simple.


Much higher efficiency occur when two zeds are flow connected. I showed that in my earlier spreadsheet attached.


Larry   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #227 on: March 01, 2014, 08:09:29 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #228 on: March 01, 2014, 08:28:05 PM »



   Hi,
       the reference to hydraulic accumulator is a load of crap. You can't store energy in a
   non compressible fluid. Hydraulic accumulators are gas or spring sort of things and are
   used to even out the flow in systems. I suppose a water tower is a type of hydraulic
   accumulator, but look at how high you have to pump the water to be able to store an
   appreciable amount of energy.
                                       John.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #229 on: March 01, 2014, 08:32:04 PM »
Let me ask you (any of you) if you really believe that, within three months of receiving necessary funding, Wayne Travis could erect a 50 kW self running powerplant at his Church, or anywhere else. Heck, give him six months to do it and a million dollars to work with.

Do ANY of you believe it?

(I won't post the slide again; I'm sure everybody has a copy of the PowerPoint slide show that was presented to prospective investors in late 2010 or early 2011, PROMISING to do just such a thing.)

Do ANY of you really believe he could actually fullfill that promise?  Red-Sunset? LarryC? What about it, put your FAITH where your spreadsheets are and answer the simple question. Do you really believe that Travis could do what he promised in that PPT presentation to prospective investors?


Or have there been too many "setbacks", "door closings", "expectations not met" and "funds not delivered" and "lawsuits" which distract Travis from the main business of Saving the World?

(DARN, it stopped again. Where did I put that Teflon tape?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKctCl_pr7A

The date on the white board looks like 9-12-2013, I think.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #229 on: March 01, 2014, 08:32:04 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #230 on: March 01, 2014, 08:46:31 PM »


   Hi,
       the reference to hydraulic accumulator is a load of crap. You can't store energy in a
   non compressible fluid. Hydraulic accumulators are gas or spring sort of things and are
   used to even out the flow in systems. I suppose a water tower is a type of hydraulic
   accumulator, but look at how high you have to pump the water to be able to store an
   appreciable amount of energy.
                                       John.

What's the problem? As long as you can get more volume out of the accumulator than you are putting back into it, everything will be fine. Heron of Alexandria even knew that much.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #231 on: March 01, 2014, 08:49:26 PM »

MarkE,


Impressive. I'm not anal enough to review, unless someone brings up an issue. If anyone would like to check, it is easy to see all the formulas at once in excel by pressing Ctrl`. The accent is next to the 1 key.
Larry, you can easily just plug in the final formulas into a pair of cells, referencing the corresponding source cells and see that you get the same answers so long as you don't muck around with the ring diameters / gaps.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #231 on: March 01, 2014, 08:49:26 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #232 on: March 01, 2014, 08:59:43 PM »
Some of the Pressure left in a first ZED at the end of its "power stroke" is allowed to "Free Flow" to a second ZED that is at the bottom of its stroke and therefore at a lower Pressure.  This equalizes the Pressure between the two ZEDs and requires no additional Energy.  But it does not bring the second ZED up to the full Pressure necessary to perform its "power stroke."  So additional Energy is required and is called the "Flow Assist."  The Energy for the "Flow Assist" is a recycled portion of the excess energy that is supposed to be harvested during each "power stroke" where the rising ZED is pumping fluid under pressure into a hydraulic accumulator.  The harvesting portion of the system is not being shown in the spreadsheets currently being analyzed, AFAIK.
As has been shown several times, allowing fluid to flow from a column filled to some height H1  to a second column H2 such that the ending heights equalize at an intermediate height H3 loses energy.  For the HER/Zydro claims that creates a deficit that they then would have to overcome with whatever it is that is supposed to be over unity in their process.  Unfortunately for HER/Zydro, there is nothing over unity in their process.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #233 on: March 01, 2014, 09:01:46 PM »


  Hi,
     let's try a little mind experiment. Say you had to stake your life on either the laws of
     physics being right or Travis's Overunity being true?
         I know which option I'd plump for, which would you choose?
                                   John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #233 on: March 01, 2014, 09:01:46 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #234 on: March 01, 2014, 09:28:41 PM »

  Hi,
     let's try a little mind experiment. Say you had to stake your life on either the laws of
     physics being right or Travis's Overunity being true?
         I know which option I'd plump for, which would you choose?
                                   John.
The comedy here is that Wayne Travis, Red_Sunset et-al claim to have a found a way to breach the conservative nature of gravity.   No spreadsheet that relies on gravity being conservative, IE treats the GPE of a mass the same based on its height the same no matter what its history of getting to that height happens to be, is going to show such a non-conservative behavior.  So in order to buy into the cult's promise of 72 ever flowing water towers one first has to find a demonstration of this non-conservative gravity claim.  No one at HER / Zydro has, or ever will come up with such a demonstration. 

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #235 on: March 01, 2014, 10:24:44 PM »



 Hi,
     I feel that it's pretty much over here. Not one fact has been offered from HER or it's
  supporters to substantiate the OU. claim.
                                          John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #235 on: March 01, 2014, 10:24:44 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #236 on: March 01, 2014, 11:12:38 PM »
     I feel that it's pretty much over here. Not one fact has been offered from HER or it's
  supporters to substantiate the OU. claim.

Bullshit, "John."  The facts are called math.  And you have presented none in this thread that is titled "Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED."  But others have.  And still others have shown where those maths are in error.  And corrections have been made.  Yet the corrected Mathematical Analysis that has been the most recent offered has not been confirmed or proved incorrect.  And it does currently substantiate OU.

Please understand that I am not from HER, but I must stand by the math and physics as presented in my analysis until shown how they are in error.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #237 on: March 01, 2014, 11:30:21 PM »



   Hi Mondrasek,
                      are you claiming verifiability? If you can we'll call it a fact. Do you know of
    anyone else who has proven OU. with this device?
                          John.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #238 on: March 01, 2014, 11:55:32 PM »
   Hi Mondrasek,
                      are you claiming verifiability? If you can we'll call it a fact. Do you know of
    anyone else who has proven OU. with this device?
                          John.

"John", anytime you would like to discuss the Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED I would be pleased to engage further.  However, your present course of questioning takes us off topic and onto the path that TK is also inclined to head down.  That path is this argument:  If the Physics premise is true, then why have we not seen the Physical Representation of a Functioning Device released?  Ergo, if no Physical Representation of a Functioning Device, then the premise to build one must be false.

That argument is a "chicken or the egg" type of thing, isn't it?  Ie. Which comes first, the Mathematical proof of an exploitable Physics phenomenon, or the product (or video?) which shows the utility of that phenomenon for the first time?

I am claiming that the math does not support the preconception that an ideal ZED performs identical to an ideal Hydraulic Cylinder.  I have requested from this forum that others check it out for themselves and either show me the error of my math and/or methods or confirm the same findings.  This process is similar to what is known as "Peer Review."

I have openly become an exposed target for proclaiming what I have presented so far.  Feel free to shoot me down.  Please do it in the language of Science:  Mathematics.

M.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #239 on: March 02, 2014, 12:37:44 AM »
And neither one of us has received answers to our questions which are very simple.

Minnie has asked, several times: Travis, do you in fact have an actual real "5 hp" unit that runs itself and provides usable energy that can be used outside the system?

And I have asked, Is there anyone reading this thread who believes that Travis could do what he promised to do, to a group of prospective investors, in the PowerPoint slide show from November 2010?

Two simple questions. LarryC could presumably answer the first one, since he is a paid employee of Travis. And everyone could answer the second one, with a simple one-word answer.

Why is this distracting or "off topic"? They are just questions Leon, they are written down for me.

(My answer to the second one is "NO". My guess as to the first one is that nobody will  actually answer it, meaning "NO".)

 

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