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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 404088 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #210 on: March 01, 2014, 07:07:46 AM »
Give Kevan Riley a call. I found his phone number for you, it's a matter of public record. Of course maybe the initials "PE" don't mean in Oklahoma what they mean on this side of the Red River. Maybe he's the high school PE coach.

I would love to hear his explanation of why, in November of 2010, they told prospective investors that they would be able to install a 50 kW working unit in three months.... but have never managed to do so. Not even 20 kW... not even 10 kW..... and we still have seen no proof of the "5 HP Net" thing nor have we gotten any answer to minnie's question.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #210 on: March 01, 2014, 07:07:46 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #211 on: March 01, 2014, 07:24:04 AM »

MarkE,


Flat wrong?
Yes indeed Larry: flat wrong, even in your latest spreadsheet you labeled a column "Stored Energy in Ft Lbs" that calculates values that do not represent such values.  That is indeed: flat wrong.
Quote

It has always amazed me about the Physicist wannabees on this site that think they know better than actual working engineers including a hydraulic engineer. They do use P average * V and F average * stroke when P or F is linear, that is just common sense.
No Larry, it is not common sense and it is incompetent for an engineer, particularly a hydraulic engineer to say that P average * V equals energy without qualifying that to very limited circumstance that do not apply here.  Use the wrong formula in the wrong circumstances and get the wrong result.  Insist upon doing that after having pointed out is just incompetence or worse.
Quote

So, what is wrong with the Stored Energy calculations that I added for you. Every time you said a calculation was in error, I've had to explain to you why it was correct.
No Larry, each incorrect calculation I have pointed out was in fact wrong.  You still insist on relying upon the same invalid premises to obtain the same invalid results.
Quote
State where it is now incorrect and I'll fix or explain why it is correct, then you can tell all why there is no excess energy.
We have been through this before:  The stored energy in each of the four columns is separately obtained by integrating F*ds for the respective columns.  The work applied is obtained by integrating F*ds applied to the input.  You can insist on using incorrect methods and get the resulting incorrect results all day long.  And as the time has come and gone to show that the supposed results are correct in a physical embodiment HER / Zydro of which you count yourself a member have seen that the embodiments do not reflect the results of the calculations you show.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #212 on: March 01, 2014, 07:26:58 AM »
I trained as a professional mechanical engineer at a reputable university for 4 years. I don't claim to be an engineer now however as my speciality is software development.  During the time I studied engineering however I developed more than enough comprehension to understand why the ZED system cannot possibly work as claimed.

I will state again, Any professional engineer would agree with me that this machine does not work as claimed. Those who disagree could only be described as manifestly incompetent to retain the title 'Engineer'.

So I reiterate, who are these engineers and to what professional or regulatory bodies are they affiliated? It's time for them to put their reputations on the line.
Any shareholder who relied on the expressed opinion of a professional engineer for their decision to invest in HER/Zydro can sue that engineer for professional negligence.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #212 on: March 01, 2014, 07:26:58 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #213 on: March 01, 2014, 02:36:44 PM »
Here is LarryC's latest spreadsheet with decomposition and reduction.  Larry is free to defend the physical basis he thinks justifies his model.

Offline Marsing

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #214 on: March 01, 2014, 03:28:31 PM »

markE, can you attach xls file

thanks

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #214 on: March 01, 2014, 03:28:31 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #215 on: March 01, 2014, 03:35:32 PM »
Marsing, LarryC published it in message 182.

Offline LarryC

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #216 on: March 01, 2014, 04:02:21 PM »
Here is LarryC's latest spreadsheet with decomposition and reduction.  Larry is free to defend the physical basis he thinks justifies his model.


MarkE,


Impressive. I'm not anal enough to review, unless someone brings up an issue. If anyone would like to check, it is easy to see all the formulas at once in excel by pressing Ctrl`. The accent is next to the 1 key.




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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #216 on: March 01, 2014, 04:02:21 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #217 on: March 01, 2014, 04:27:05 PM »
How about this for an issue: FLOW ASSIST.

That sure sounds to me like an injection of energy from outside the system of the two zeds. So I must be wrong, because we have been told by Travis that the system has no input, no exhaust, just constant clean energy output.

So can someone please tell me what _exactly_ is meant by "FLOW ASSIST" in employee LarryC's scheme?

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #218 on: March 01, 2014, 04:44:22 PM »
So can someone please tell me what _exactly_ is meant by "FLOW ASSIST" ... ?

Some of the Pressure left in a first ZED at the end of its "power stroke" is allowed to "Free Flow" to a second ZED that is at the bottom of its stroke and therefore at a lower Pressure.  This equalizes the Pressure between the two ZEDs and requires no additional Energy.  But it does not bring the second ZED up to the full Pressure necessary to perform its "power stroke."  So additional Energy is required and is called the "Flow Assist."  The Energy for the "Flow Assist" is a recycled portion of the excess energy that is supposed to be harvested during each "power stroke" where the rising ZED is pumping fluid under pressure into a hydraulic accumulator.  The harvesting portion of the system is not being shown in the spreadsheets currently being analyzed, AFAIK.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #218 on: March 01, 2014, 04:44:22 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #219 on: March 01, 2014, 05:06:21 PM »
Some of the Pressure left in a first ZED at the end of its "power stroke" is allowed to "Free Flow" to a second ZED that is at the bottom of its stroke and therefore at a lower Pressure.  This equalizes the Pressure between the two ZEDs and requires no additional Energy.  But it does not bring the second ZED up to the full Pressure necessary to perform its "power stroke."  So additional Energy is required and is called the "Flow Assist."  The Energy for the "Flow Assist" is a recycled portion of the excess energy that is supposed to be harvested during each "power stroke" where the rising ZED is pumping fluid under pressure into a hydraulic accumulator.  The harvesting portion of the system is not being shown in the spreadsheets currently being analyzed, AFAIK.

Uh-huh. So what part of pumping fluid into a hydraulic accumulator and getting it back out is "overunity"? You get the same work out from an accumulator as you put into it, minus losses. Did you check out the PDF file I linked to up above (or maybe in the other thread, this is pretty silly having this discussion in two threads.) I think, based on that PDF, that hydraulic systems are pretty darn well understood, and in fact in that PDF you will find illustrations of every individual piece of any Zed system that I have ever seen diagrammed, with the proper equations to compute pressures, volumes, flow rates..... and, after page 33, ENERGIES. 

So to get more work out of the accumulator than you are putting into it, you will need to supply some outside source. It really sounds to me like you need to get more _volume_ out of the accumulator than you are putting into it, and that situation will not last very long.... and the longest _confirmed_ reported run of any of Travis's devices that I can find is only about four hours.

It is obvious that the need for "flow assist" means that the output of the single Zed is not OU. So where does the pressure for the "flow assist" come from ON THE INITIAL CYCLE? The only possible places I can identify are from the pre-charge, which will eventually run out, or from outside the system. And the "flow assist" only resets the second zed back to the start condition, right? So _where_ is the excess whatever coming from? Do the zeds create fluid volume out of nothing?

That's why I asked my question about the Heron's Fountain that was ignored. If a small Heron's Fountain with 100 mL reservoirs will pump a head to, say, 10 cm above the highest level in the reservoirs, and continue doing that for, say, about a minute, as mine do.... what would happen if you had reservoirs of 10,000 liters, elevated by 5 meters above your reference level? How long would you expect it to run, pumping a head of, say, 1 meter? Long enough to impress the money, er, "heck" out of the observers? I've had educated people accuse me of faking Heron's Fountain runs on the tabletop system, it is so unbelievable to them.

Offline Marsing

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #220 on: March 01, 2014, 05:18:05 PM »
hi larry

did  you scale the pod height ,water height, .. etc  in this picture?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #220 on: March 01, 2014, 05:18:05 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #221 on: March 01, 2014, 05:31:38 PM »
Uh-huh. So what part of pumping fluid into a hydraulic accumulator and getting it back out is "overunity"? You get the same work out from an accumulator as you put into it, minus losses. Did you check out the PDF file I linked to up above (or maybe in the other thread, this is pretty silly having this discussion in two threads.) I think, based on that PDF, that hydraulic systems are pretty darn well understood, and in fact in that PDF you will find illustrations of every individual piece of any Zed system that I have ever seen diagrammed, with the proper equations to compute pressures, volumes, flow rates..... and, after page 33, ENERGIES. 

So to get more work out of the accumulator than you are putting into it, you will need to supply some outside source. It really sounds to me like you need to get more _volume_ out of the accumulator than you are putting into it, and that situation will not last very long.... and the longest _confirmed_ reported run of any of Travis's devices that I can find is only about four hours.

It is obvious that the need for "flow assist" means that the output of the single Zed is not OU. So where does the pressure for the "flow assist" come from ON THE INITIAL CYCLE? The only possible places I can identify are from the pre-charge, which will eventually run out, or from outside the system. And the "flow assist" only resets the second zed back to the start condition, right? So _where_ is the excess whatever coming from? Do the zeds create fluid volume out of nothing?

That's why I asked my question about the Heron's Fountain that was ignored. If a small Heron's Fountain with 100 mL reservoirs will pump a head to, say, 10 cm above the highest level in the reservoirs, and continue doing that for, say, about a minute, as mine do.... what would happen if you had reservoirs of 10,000 liters, elevated by 5 meters above your reference level? How long would you expect it to run, pumping a head of, say, 1 meter? Long enough to impress the money, er, "heck" out of the observers? I've had educated people accuse me of faking Heron's Fountain runs on the tabletop system, it is so unbelievable to them.

TK, the only way a ZED system could work, IMHO, is if a single ZED somehow is able to produce more Energy output than it is supplied Energy input.  And that is what I started this thread to check for.  You keep citing the known behavior of conservative hydraulic systems.  Presumably because you are convinced that a ZED is acting as a simple hydraulic cylinder (under ideal conditions).  The purpose of the analysis I posted (and original intent of this thread) was to determine if that is, in fact, true.  Simply put I am testing:

Does an Ideal ZED behave identically to an Ideal Hydraulic Cylinder?

My first attempt at the analysis was found to be erroneous.  MarkE pointed out that the way I was calculating the Energy input was incorrect.  So I modified the model so that I could use the simplest correct method (that I have learned so far). 

The results of the corrected analysis have still not shown the expected relationship of Energy in = Energy out.  And so I have asked for anyone to double check my math and the method of the analysis.  MarkE has agreed to do so.  I also welcome anyone else to take a look at it.  Because until an error is found I have to believe the results of the math and physics.  And that is showing that the ZED is not a conservative system.  And after you explained the error in my "open system" theory, I have no theory to support how that can be.  Only that the math and physics appear to show that unexpected behavior.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #222 on: March 01, 2014, 05:33:06 PM »
Really, it seems to me that the "flow assist" is only making up the losses, so that the system will reset to the start state. Next cycle, more losses. Where does the extra energy for the flow assist really come from?

(Watch out.... when you "quote" me, Travis's employee LarryC won't be able to ignore what I wrote, and he has already descended into flaming and ad-hominem abuse directed at MarkE. We don't want to overpressure his abuse accumulator, his head will a splode.)

Have you taken a look at the pdf with all the hydraulic formulae in it? Do your calculations of events and performance of parts jive with the calculations in that pdf?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #223 on: March 01, 2014, 05:44:13 PM »
Mondrasek said:
Quote
TK, the only way a ZED system could work, IMHO, is if a single ZED somehow is able to produce more Energy output than it is supplied Energy input. 
That seems right to me, unless extra energy is added from outside. Since the  Zed system on the first cycle needs "flow assist" for the system to reset to the start state.... well, that in itself proves that the single Zed is not OU enough to complete the action on its own.
Quote
And that is what I started this thread to check for.  You keep citing the known behavior of conservative hydraulic systems.  Presumably because you are convinced that a ZED is acting as a simple hydraulic cylinder (under ideal conditions).
No, a _compound_ hydraulic cylinder, full of Red Herrings swimming around inside, all of which will be found to obey real physics.

But I don't know why you lot are fiddling around with Travis Employee LarryC's dualzed spreadsheet. We have been told by his employer, you may recall, that a SINGLE ZED is already OU by itself, and that there _exists_ a three layer system that is clearly overunity by itself. Why are you lot not analyzing THAT simple system to see if Travis's claims about it are true? After all, you have a direct line into Travis's engineering department through Employee LarryC. Don't you?

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #224 on: March 01, 2014, 06:18:20 PM »
But I don't know why you lot are fiddling around with Travis Employee LarryC's dualzed spreadsheet. We have been told by his employer, you may recall, that a SINGLE ZED is already OU by itself, and that there _exists_ a three layer system that is clearly overunity by itself. Why are you lot not analyzing THAT simple system to see if Travis's claims about it are true?

The single 3-layer ZED is EXACTLY what I posted as the logical progression of my analysis.  I was hoping that someone would have first examined my work on the 2-layer.  The 2-layer was found, by the methods outlined in this thread, to be non-conservative and under unity.  The 3-layer was found, by those same methods, to be over unity.

To be honest, I am baffled that no one has followed through on a double check of my math and methods.  MarkE said he would, but decided to check out LarryC's latter postings of his spreadsheets instead.  Which is okay, since that examination was helpful to me as well.  MarkE outlined in that exchange a method that I have been able to use as a further triple check point in my own work.

MarkE has told me privately that he would still check my work if I send it to him, which I intend to do next week.  It is on my laptop at work, not here at home.  I would prefer that he do his own math rather than check mine so that I did not unintentionally influence him to follow an incorrect step.  But I do believe that he would find any mistakes sooner or later.

 

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