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### Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 742227 times)

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #195 on: March 01, 2014, 12:45:28 AM »
LarryC, energy is the integral of F*ds.  The force that must be exerted to go from the 3+3 state changes from 0 to pWater*area*3ft of total head because the column in the middle counterbalances the column on the right, so it is the difference between those heads, plus the head that we develop in the left hand column that determines the net weight:  IE force that we lift each increment of distance as we pump water into the left hand column.

That's exactly what I'm doing, as I previously stated 'Riser Head - Riser Gap Head + Pod Head'.

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #196 on: March 01, 2014, 12:46:34 AM »

I am calculating energy for all four parts, you need to learn to use the Trace Dependents and Trace Precedents button. The 35 in J8 is not used anywhere, it is a visual double check for me to make sure I set the newly added Inner and Outer riser water ht correctly so they equal the original riser heads in column C. The Inner and Outer riser water ht is used in the store energy calculation.

Never said pressure is a measure of work or power.  You would have known, I was talking about the multiple connected columns is the basis for the Zed design as I have stated many time. The PSI is used in the Risers the same as in a pneumatic cylinder and does create Work during the stroke. Getting the PSI up and down with less input volume is key to increased Power.
In the spreadsheet the volume input to get to Ready to Stroke is 22 for the Zed and 81.02 for the Archimedes and the Output Ft Lbs is 33.55% greater for the Zed. Based on the fact that it would take much longer for a pump to ready the Archimedes than for the Zed, the Zed will cycle faster. Cycle faster increases Work done over time or Power.

Misleading statements caused Librenergia to take it out context and put his big foot in his mouth, when I know just as much about work and power as most of you and apparently with better comprehension, since most of you cannot understand how the Zed works.

Larry, good if you know about energy and power, then kindly correct your spreadsheets once and for all so that they evaluate energy as the integral of F*ds.  Stop using averaged pressure between multiple columns and other methods that you must know from your declaration of your personal expertise are wrong.  Kindly stop uttering physically meaningless statements such as:

Quote
Getting the PSI up and down with less input volume is key to increased Power.

If you understand energy then you know that there isn't any stored in an incompressible fluid.  You should also know that pressure and volume are meaningful with respect to energy only under special conditions.  You should also know that power is not a measure of energy.  You should know that energy is the integral of F*ds.  So since based on your claimed expertise you know better, please cut the BS.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #197 on: March 01, 2014, 01:47:50 AM »
I'm going to guess that there aren't many bowhunters on this thread.

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #198 on: March 01, 2014, 01:53:03 AM »
Larry, good if you know about energy and power, then kindly correct your spreadsheets once and for all so that they evaluate energy as the integral of F*ds.  Stop using averaged pressure between multiple columns and other methods that you must know from your declaration of your personal expertise are wrong.  Kindly stop uttering physically meaningless statements such as:

If you understand energy then you know that there isn't any stored in an incompressible fluid.  You should also know that pressure and volume are meaningful with respect to energy only under special conditions.  You should also know that power is not a measure of energy.  You should know that energy is the integral of F*ds.  So since based on your claimed expertise you know better, please cut the BS.

MarkE,

Testy, I gave you your Stored Energy calculations, the other calculation are for working field engineers so they won't be removed.

I knew when the Stored Energy calculations didn't help you explain the 33.55% increase, you would have to find some other excuse not to admit the Zeds excess output, which is BTW calculated as Force * Stroke.

So thanks for your time, you have helped in a lot of ways. As a business, we are trying to increase Horsepower in the Zed and you may have inadvertently helped.

Larry
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 06:40:52 AM by LarryC »

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #199 on: March 01, 2014, 02:49:03 AM »
Larry, you can toy with the power all you want.  What you can't do is deliver excess energy.  You've got formulas in your spreadsheet that are flat wrong.  There is no excess energy in that system:  not 1% not 33%, zero, zip, nada, de novo.  Once again:  Energy is the integral of F*ds.  Only in the special case where F is constant does that evaluate to F*s.  In these devices where water is being pumped in and out of columns, F is not constant, and energy is not F*s.  If you are still unclear on that point then I have not helped enough.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #200 on: March 01, 2014, 02:55:23 AM »

MarkE,

Testy, I gave you your Stored Energy calculations, the other calculation are for working field engineers so they won't be removed.

I knew when the Stored Energy calculations didn't help you explain the 33.55% increase, you would have to find some other excuse not to admit the Zeds excess output, which is BTW calculated as Force * Stroke.

So thanks for your time, you have helped in a lot of ways. As a business, we are trying to increase Horsepower in the Zed and you may have inadvertently helped.

Larry

Bingo. Now we know. You are a paid minion of Wayne Travis, you are not an impartial observer who is only interested in the truth.

And POWER IS NOT ENERGY.  You want more horsepower? Then just move your magic Zeds further apart. Or closer together, or make them a thousand feet tall, I don't care. You will never be able to make what Travis has claimed to _have already_: a device that will run itself with no input but with usable energy left over that can be used outside the system, without making the system lurch to a groaning halt more or less quickly. Feel free to prove me wrong by showing the "three layer system that is clearly overunity by itself." Or show the 5hp system that is running itself. Or show the _actual design_ of the 50 kW system that Travis claimed he could build and install in three months time after receiving the funding.

Of course we know that LarryC is ignoring my posts, and now we know just why.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #201 on: March 01, 2014, 03:15:21 AM »
As a business, you want to increase the horsepower output?

I can tell you how to make rapid and amazing progress in that direction, and I will tell you for free:

How about this: Simply provide one credible demonstration of the devices that Travis claims to have ALREADY: a self running device that produces usable output ENERGY without stopping and with no external input. 1/10 HP output in a self running machine is quite enough to get every scientist and engineer in the entire world looking at you and "helping" to improve your output and get your Nobel Prize and all the rest of that.

But you cannot, Travis cannot.... because what Travis has claimed is a lie.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #202 on: March 01, 2014, 03:56:57 AM »
TK:

If you recall in the previous thread Wayne always talked about an excess of a certain number of fluid ounces of water at a certain pressure as a "gain."  Actually that may predate your joining of the old thread.  As MarkE recently commented, pressurized water itself stores no energy.

I think we are literally seeing an "Attack" of the Zombie Pod People.  Minions that succumbed to the brainwashing because they were unable to mount a defense?  Like one of those old sci-fi movies where the whole town has converted?

I hope this story ends with some good drama.  Like the water tower bursts and everything gets washed away!  lol

MileHigh

#### LibreEnergia

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 332
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #203 on: March 01, 2014, 04:25:33 AM »

Our engineers have a lot more than a modicum of knowledge and with the ability to comprehend the Zed.

You should go back and review what has been posted and than make some knowledgeable statements, instead of trying to show off with these simpleton examples.

I'd like to ask these engineers to reveal themselves.

If in fact they exist and belong to any professional or governmental body that attests to their competence to hold the title 'Engineer', I'd like to formally complain to that body as to their competence to continue practising in that capacity.

They should be ashamed of themselves for believing such nonsense.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #204 on: March 01, 2014, 04:38:21 AM »
My gut feel is telling me that they are "Zombie Pod" engineers.  They aren't real engineers with the educational credentials and the memberships in professional engineering associations like the IEEE to back up their alleged titles.  They are just pretending that they are engineers and when Wayne says that he has engineers working for him be is also 'pretending' or choose a stronger word if you want.

It's probably illegal in most or all States to claim that you are an engineer when you are not.

Then we got the pictures of the props and the 'fake company' headquarters with the wide open spaces and not much of a sense of anything going on at all.

The whole sad story is laid out for all to see, you just have to open your eyes.

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #205 on: March 01, 2014, 04:40:38 AM »
Larry, you can toy with the power all you want.  What you can't do is deliver excess energy.  You've got formulas in your spreadsheet that are flat wrong.  There is no excess energy in that system:  not 1% not 33%, zero, zip, nada, de novo.  Once again:  Energy is the integral of F*ds.  Only in the special case where F is constant does that evaluate to F*s.  In these devices where water is being pumped in and out of columns, F is not constant, and energy is not F*s.  If you are still unclear on that point then I have not helped enough.

MarkE,

Flat wrong? It has always amazed me about the Physicist wannabees on this site that think they know better than actual working engineers including a hydraulic engineer. They do use P average * V and F average * stroke when P or F is linear, that is just common sense.

So, what is wrong with the Stored Energy calculations that I added for you. Every time you said a calculation was in error, I've had to explain to you why it was correct. State where it is now incorrect and I'll fix or explain why it is correct, then you can tell all why there is no excess energy.

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #206 on: March 01, 2014, 05:23:10 AM »
I'd like to ask these engineers to reveal themselves.

If in fact they exist and belong to any professional or governmental body that attests to their competence to hold the title 'Engineer', I'd like to formally complain to that body as to their competence to continue practising in that capacity.

They should be ashamed of themselves for believing such nonsense.

They do exist, but why would they be ashamed of having better comprehension abilities than you. You should be wondering why you don't have the ability to comprehend the system.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #207 on: March 01, 2014, 06:52:34 AM »
More ad hominem abuse from the Great Engineer LarryC, who is apparently on Travis's payroll, just like Webby. Thousands of free dollars will buy a lot of loyalty, won't it.

Kevan Riley, PE:
Phone number
405-222-1928

(known but redacted)

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #208 on: March 01, 2014, 06:58:29 AM »

Good luck finding some support for your claims in there, employee LarryC. You can skip ahead to Page 33 if the preliminary stuff is too boring.

(It's wonderful knowing that he's ignoring my comments. It makes it impossible for him to refute me!)

#### LibreEnergia

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 332
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #209 on: March 01, 2014, 07:06:10 AM »

They do exist, but why would they be ashamed of having better comprehension abilities than you. You should be wondering why you don't have the ability to comprehend the system.

I trained as a professional mechanical engineer at a reputable university for 4 years. I don't claim to be an engineer now however as my speciality is software development.  During the time I studied engineering however I developed more than enough comprehension to understand why the ZED system cannot possibly work as claimed.

I will state again, Any professional engineer would agree with me that this machine does not work as claimed. Those who disagree could only be described as manifestly incompetent to retain the title 'Engineer'.

So I reiterate, who are these engineers and to what professional or regulatory bodies are they affiliated? It's time for them to put their reputations on the line.