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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 500715 times)

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #945 on: March 11, 2014, 09:53:31 PM »
No, minnie, because I genuinely believe no matter what I presented, MarkE, would take issue with it.  It is just a diversion.  Much like his convenient "errors" and insistence on arguing falsities such as the previously mentioned ID vs. OD thing.  So I am done presenting anything that MarkE wants.  If anyone genuine wants any more info or assistance, I would be happy to work on that.

The math does not lie.  And there is only one solution.  Funny enough, I learned many of the methods and equations presented in my Analysis from MarkE!  His input in other threads helped me to form the idea for this Analysis method.  And his explanations early in the thread while working with LarryC provided even more assistance, including the Energy balance sums for the columns of water.

His State 2 matches mine.  The buoyant lift Forces on the pod and risers (inside his spreadsheet) also match mine.  So I am confident with the results of my Analysis.

It would be fun to do the Feynman test and build a model to test against, but that brings in all the real world variables we have eliminated in this Ideal Analysis as well as is costly.  I don't see the point in doing that as this is an Analysis of another's idea, not something I am trying to develop.  Just something I wanted to finish exploring.  And I am presently surprised by what is to be found.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #945 on: March 11, 2014, 09:53:31 PM »

Offline LarryC

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #946 on: March 11, 2014, 09:53:40 PM »
Oops is right Larry.  You miscomputed the input work.  Work is the integral of F*ds.  The initial force adding your 1ft of water is zero.  But the force at the end is:  4+1-2 = 3*0.65psi/ft.  The added work is therefore the integral evaluation from 0 to 1ft of:  0.5*3*0.65psi*area/ft*z2 = 0.5*3*0.65psi*area/ft*1ft2, which happens to be identically the difference between the starting and ending energies of:  EINITIAL = 2*0.5*0.65psi*area*3ft2 = 18*0.5*0.65*area and EFINAL = 0.5*0.65psi*area*(12 + 22 +42) = 0.5*0.65psi*area*21.

MarkE,

Attached first is my example that you said had the input work wrong.


Second is a picture of the spreadsheet integration that shows the same results as the example.


Third is the actual integration spreadsheet. Where it is using P * V at each increment.


Correction: the results are the same as yours, after I correct your .65 to .43 for the psi/ft.




 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #947 on: March 12, 2014, 02:57:56 AM »
MarkE, I'll call it a day.  I'm not in school and need not conform to any rules to pass a class.  Neither am I presenting a proof for publication in any Science Journal.  I am showing others on an Internet Forum how I Analyzed the ZED using math, CAD, and a Calculator.  If they want to share in that, they can follow the presented methodology (which includes equations) and see if they result in the same values that have been presented.  They can also decide for themselves if the conclusions drawn are supported by those methods and math.  And I offer to assist anyone who has any question along the way.

AFAIK, the only tricky part is calculating the water column heights for whatever State 3 you want to finish with.  The lift creates some internal Volumn changes that can be missed initially.  That got me two years ago and again on my first attempt more recently.  If anyone wants assistance with that I am happy to help.
Mondrasek you can blow smoke all day long if that is what suits you.  You are making it obvious that you do not want your claimed analysis checked, because you never actually present your work so that anyone can check it.  See who you can take down your garden path.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #947 on: March 12, 2014, 02:57:56 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #948 on: March 12, 2014, 03:00:39 AM »
Marsing, only I never asked MarkE, or anyone, to "audit" my work.  I asked if anyone would double check my work.  And that can be done by different methods.  For example, I initially calculated new Water heights for State 3 by working from the inside out comparing Volumes and moving the boundary levels previously found in State 2 in CAD.  I then double checked the work by comparing Volumes of the Air and Water in each area to those in State 1 and State 2, which is a slightly different method.  Then I triple checked the work by calculating the Energy in the Water in each state as well as introduced by the charge and seeing if those values all compared properly, a completely different and valid method.

So there are different methods, and I could show several for most steps, but I encourage others to pick their own OR follow what I did. 

Now since my methods and MarkE's both arrive at the same State 2, I see no reason to back up and "show my work" that is proven to result in identical results with MarkE.  But I did agree to "show the work" moving forward from State 2 to State 3 since that is where we diverged.  And this, I believe, I have done.  With descriptions, equations, and example calculations.
The opening post actually began like this:

All, please check the math.  I would appreciate if you can point out any mistakes in the math, assumptions, logic, and conclusions. 

Yet, Mondrasek steadfastly refuses to provide what he says he wants checked.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #949 on: March 12, 2014, 03:04:47 AM »
Mark:

You really should consider doing youtube videos.  Your demonstration would be very educational and, even though I know from experience that making videos is hard to do well, one does get better over time.  Hell, even TK can do it. (Ducking)  Seriously, I have learned more from TK's videos than I ever learned in school.  I thank him for making them.

Give it a shot...it is obvious that you have a lot of information that you seem very willing to share.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #949 on: March 12, 2014, 03:04:47 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #950 on: March 12, 2014, 03:06:31 AM »
MarkE,

Don't have to,, already done that a long time ago,, Jr. High school science.

I got sidetracked and forgot to answer your other question,, sorry about that.

What you have shown is a single piston assembly,, not a nested system, as well as the volume usage thing,,  get the same results with only using 1\10 the volume while having all the forces the same,, that would be distance pushed down, weight of water lifted blah blah blah,,
The physics of the single piston don't change when one goes to multiple pistons.  Nesting folds a larger effective assembly into a smaller volume, at a cost of lost efficiency.  It does not create energy gains for reasons that should be amply visible from the demonstration that you call middle school science.  Ergo, none of this should be news to you at all.
Quote

I am not saying you screwed with anything,, I explained most likely what was happening and you came along and conferred with my guess as to causality.

All my pictures are taken by hand,, you can imagine that if I tried to do a collage what it would look like :)

Anyway,, your simple little testbed does exactly what it should, that is you push a float down add some weight and it comes back up to the point where the buoyant force balances out with the weight.  Your input work pushes the water up,, and then some of that fills the little bottle and the rest falls back down pushing the little bottle back up.
Great!  Then we are on the same page.  Do that with more floats and more weights and what do you get?  Just a more complicated implementation of the same thing.  There is no change in where the energy comes from.  There is no change in the behavior of gravity.
Quote

I understand that you think this is the  same as a nested system with pod,, that is what the discussion is all about.
It demonstrates all of the fundamental behaviors one needs to understand to see the ZED claims as the false nonsense that they are.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #951 on: March 12, 2014, 03:07:58 AM »
Minnie, if I felt that MarkE's intentions were to learn anything, I might be inclined to do differently.  But he clearly was able to present a correct State 2, but refused, at first, to present a State 3.  Instead he simply "waved his hands" and said that for reasons previously explained, it cannot work.  I found that to be disingenuous at first.  But he did agree to continue.  It is at that point he deviated to a Volume in = Volume out approach, instead of the clearly stated method of checking if Energy in = Energy out.  And he has had many "errors" ever since.  Including the ridiculous claim that the buoyancy Force is calculated by the ID and not the OD.

So I find that MarkE is not working in good faith to help with anything.  He is only disrupting now.  In fact, he is trying, once again, to make us go back to the beginning.  Why do you think that is?  I know why, do you?

If anyone who displays a desire to learn what I presented and cannot on their own (I hope many can) I would be happy to help.  But MarkE's demands will not stop.  And nothing that I present will ever be satisfactory.  And he will never let the Analysis be completed if he is involved.

So, why bother?
Again, this is what you asked for:

All, please check the math.  I would appreciate if you can point out any mistakes in the math, assumptions, logic, and conclusions. 

That was your request.  You deliberately have refused to publish the work that you said you want checked.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #951 on: March 12, 2014, 03:07:58 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #952 on: March 12, 2014, 03:21:00 AM »
MarkE,

Attached first is my example that you said had the input work wrong.


Second is a picture of the spreadsheet integration that shows the same results as the example.


Third is the actual integration spreadsheet. Where it is using P * V at each increment.


Correction: the results are the same as yours, after I correct your .65 to .43 for the psi/ft.
In the spreadsheet that you had sent you average pressure across multiple columns and then multiplied that pressure by volume to find energy.  That's wrong.  I have explained why it is wrong.  It is wrong because:  N*(X/N)2 = X/N. Given two identical columns:  One column filled to 2m holds 4X the energy of one column filled to 1m, or twice the energy of two columns each filled to one meter.  Under the special circumstances of a single column, one can prove (I've shown the math several times) that:  0.5*PMAX*V = 0.5*density*G0*Area*H2.   The latter is the actual solution for the stored energy for each H.  When you have multiple heights and you average pressure you can easily get the wrong answer as in the two column example I just offered.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #953 on: March 12, 2014, 04:10:41 AM »
MarkE,

I was wondering, is a buoyant lift an ID thing or an OD thing?

So if someone were using the ID and pressure then would it be a buoyant lift, or would it be something else?
The upward force is equal to the weight of the displaced fluid.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #953 on: March 12, 2014, 04:10:41 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #954 on: March 12, 2014, 05:23:55 AM »
MarkE,

Attached first is my example that you said had the input work wrong.


Second is a picture of the spreadsheet integration that shows the same results as the example.


Third is the actual integration spreadsheet. Where it is using P * V at each increment.


Correction: the results are the same as yours, after I correct your .65 to .43 for the psi/ft.
Larry, if you correctly calculate the reflected force back to column 1, which is in this case (1+(4-2))ft*pWater*G0*Area/ft = 3*pWater*G0*Area/ft  and apply that to the net force:  F = 0 + KFORCE*HCOL1  then when you evaluate the integral you get:  0*H + 0.5*KFORCE*HCOL12  then you get the exact answer without iterative calculations.   We can observe that for these circumstances of starting from zero, that PAVE*VCOL1_ADDED yields the same result.  The math works because the force and pressure were related back to one column.  In this case you stacked columns side by side.

When you set up with concentric rings of fixed diameter steps, then when you calculate the force, such as back to the pod chamber for the State 1 to State 2 transition in Mondrasek's "ideal ZED", then the opposing force per unit height inside AR1 is:  sum(1+AR1area/AR2area + AR1area/AR3area ... AR1area/AR7area)*pWater*G0*AR1Area/AR1_unit_height.  You can of course relate the force and pressure by the area.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #955 on: March 12, 2014, 10:00:23 AM »



    Team Travis is looking extremely shaky!
    Most don't seem to have a grasp of the
    very basics.
                       John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #955 on: March 12, 2014, 10:00:23 AM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #956 on: March 12, 2014, 10:50:40 AM »
It's the usual Travesty story,
shaky, flaky, vague, and without a credible working device in over three years, but apparently some people believe an analysis of a non existing device will convince everyone, if you believe in your analysis then produce a device that actually works, though let's face it if Wayne can't do it in three years what chance has anyone else,  that's why all the believers have left is an analysis of an non existing device.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #957 on: March 12, 2014, 10:58:19 AM »


    Team Travis is looking extremely shaky!
    Most don't seem to have a grasp of the
    very basics.
                       John.
Well, under special circumstances one can get the right answer for energy using PAVE*V.  The single column is such a case, and we can see that in Larry's example, provided that we pick the right PAVE.

What we cannot do to get the right answer is use PAVE obtained across multiple columns.
If we set K1 = pWater*G0 then
In the [0,3,3] left hand case of Larry's example we would incorrectly calculate an internal energy of,

PAVE is: K1*(0+3+3/3) = K1*2. 
V is Area*(3+3) = Area*6
PAVE*V = K1*Area*12

The correct answer can be found by adding the energies of each column, and for that the individual PAVE*V gives the right answer:

0.5*K1*Area*(0 + 3*3 + 3*3) = K1*9

Larry chose to calculate the energy added to get to the [1,2,4] case by calculating the average pressure in the left hand column and multiplying that by the volume in the left hand column.  And for those circumstances he got the right answer.  His analogy to a 3ft high column needs a bit of work, because while that gives the correct pressure, it yields the wrong volume and represents three times as much energy as was added.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #958 on: March 12, 2014, 11:00:24 AM »
It's the usual Travesty story,
shaky, flaky, vague, and without a credible working device in over three years, but apparently some people believe an analysis of a non existing device will convince everyone, if you believe in your analysis then produce a device that actually works, though let's face it if Wayne can't do it in three years what chance has anyone else,  that's why all the believers have left is an analysis of an non existing device.
It does not seem that there is even an analysis, because while we are constantly reminded that such an analysis is supposed to exist we never see it.  Never mind that any mathematically correct analysis that holds to First Principles by definition cannot show a gain.  Also I believe that we are coming up on six years of this charade.  The PowerPoint pitch with the alternate universe physics is a little over three years old.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #959 on: March 12, 2014, 01:09:27 PM »
That is what I thought, and that displaced fluid then will be the OD of the "float" and not the ID.

So why are you using the ID of the riser in your spreadsheet? more precisely you are using the OD of the AR inside the riser.

I was having issues with your lift force total and my hand calculated volumes of displaced water,, in your spreadsheet that value is approximately 122g of force, where as I come up with approximately 148g of force.
I will go look at it.  If it is wrong, I will fix it.  It will not change the fact that the system is fundamentally lossy.

Please tell me something:  Do you have any trouble following my spreadsheet?  I have tried to make the names and equations easy to follow.

 

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