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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 566476 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #930 on: March 11, 2014, 06:44:53 PM »
hi..  mondrasek

it seem that you asked someone to repair your car or something without touching it, with closed eyes, is there something that you hide inside?
as PC is your toy and you are also VBA programmer, how could it be so difficult for you to learn only a bit of excel ?,
there is no doubt that you know exactly a help button in excel and you know google is a huge library. I'm sure you will not regret exploring excel features.  say goodbye to calculator   :)
I don't think that Mondrasek said he is a VBA programmer.  I thought he said that he does not write code.  And if he never bothered to learn Excel, there is MathCAD and Matlab.   And if he really doesn't like any of those he can always use a pen and paper.  But to work the problem there is work that has to be done, and there is no way to audit the work if it is not written down one way or another.  No one including Mondrasek can check work that is not recorded by some means.  Mondrasek chooses not to show his work, and now without making any attempt to repeat my experiments, he accuses me of gaming them.  I invite anyone to reproduce my experiments.  They don't require a lot of time or skill, and they are cheap to perform.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #930 on: March 11, 2014, 06:44:53 PM »

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #931 on: March 11, 2014, 06:45:01 PM »
hi..  mondrasek

it seem that you asked someone to repair your car or something without touching it, with closed eyes, is there something that you hide inside?
as PC is your toy and you are also VBA programmer, how could it be so difficult for you to learn only a bit of excel ?,
there is no doubt that you know exactly a help button in excel and you know google is a huge library. I'm sure you will not regret exploring excel features.  say goodbye to calculator   :)

Nope.  Not a VBA programmer.  Plenty of Software Engineers that I can ask to do that for me if I feel it is needed.  Not needed for this Analysis.  Neither is Excel.  Paper, pencil, and a calculator can give the same exact results as any more advanced methods.

Feel free to review any of the reasoning, methods, math, and results in this Analysis.  Let us know if you find any mistakes, or if you have any questions.

BTW, I have seen many neat VBA and spreadsheet apps developed to check Industrial Robot loading while being with my current Employer for many years now.  Those that rely on those tools and do not understand the math behind them are limited by lacking that understanding.  I am often asked to evaluate ways to apply the robots properly to handle the situations where those tools merely tell the user they are exceeding the capacity of the robots.  I prefer to keep those skill sharp.

To be clear, I have nothing against spreadsheets and computer apps!  They are simply not needed for this Analysis.  If I were to include those unnecessary tools it could eliminate the understanding by anyone who does not have them available or also is not skilled with them.  So a simple approach and presentation are my preference.  And the simpler the better.  That was the reason I offered the no-pod, single riser model so we could clear up some issues before returning to the 3-layer.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #932 on: March 11, 2014, 06:50:10 PM »
Mondrasek chooses not to show his work...

I have explained and shown my methods for the Analysis from the point where it diverges from MarkE's at after State 2.  That begins here:  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  Each post tells the reasoning for the method used, the equations used, and a sample calculation.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #932 on: March 11, 2014, 06:50:10 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #933 on: March 11, 2014, 06:58:13 PM »
So the interaction of the pontoons is to move up with force when they have been pushed down with force into the water.
The pontoons combined with the water bottle are surrogates for a single riser.  We can't get an SG of 0 for obvious practical reasons.  However that is not important.  It only means that instead of floating on top of the water, they are partially submerged in the relaxed state, which is with the vent open.
Quote

Will they move up with the vent open?
Absolutely!  The water bottle plus pontoons rises to its highest position when the vent is open.  When the vent is closed, the assembly has to lift water, and that requires energy.
Quote

If yes then there is no similarity.
What is it that you contend is dissimilar?  A hollow assembly with SG < 1 is inserted into a volume of water.  The water level inside and outside the assembly is allowed to equalize by opening a vent.  When the water level has equalized, the vent is closed.  The only difference here is that I don't have a convenient supply of incompressible air.  Monderask has got things all backwards and has the odd idea that compressibility gives me something that I want to show that incompressible "air" would not.  That's horse shit.  Because the air is elastic: some energy goes into rarifying the air and some into lifting water.  If the air were inelastic, then all of the energy would go into lifting the water.  The water level in the water bottle would be higher, but the top of the water bottle would be lower.  HER/Zydro use air, so the demonstrated arrangement is a little more representative of a "real ZED" than it is of an "ideal ZED", but the differences are not material to what is being demonstrated.
Quote

If no then why not.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #934 on: March 11, 2014, 07:00:54 PM »
I have explained and shown my methods for the Analysis from the point where it diverges from MarkE's at after State 2.  That begins here:  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  Each post tells the reasoning for the method used, the equations used, and a sample calculation.
No they don't.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #934 on: March 11, 2014, 07:00:54 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #935 on: March 11, 2014, 07:42:01 PM »
No they don't.

MarkE, I believe I can calculate everything from State 2 to State3 with the information I have provided from here on (and with the dimensions shown in the diagrams):  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  If you can point out where something is missing I will make any necessary corrections or adjustments.  But continuing to demand that I provide something when you will not state specifically what is missing will get us nowhere. 

Now I did not show each step necessary to adjust the water levels from State 2 to State 3, but you have demonstrated the ability to do that in your calculations that correctly adjust from State 1 to State 2.  So I would not think that would be necessary.  Is it a demonstration of this step that you would like me to provide?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #936 on: March 11, 2014, 07:53:28 PM »
MarkE, I believe I can calculate everything from State 2 to State3 with the information I have provided from here on (and with the dimensions shown in the diagrams):  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  If you can point out where something is missing I will make any necessary corrections or adjustments.  But continuing to demand that I provide something when you will not state specifically what is missing will get us nowhere. 

Now I did not show each step necessary to adjust the water levels from State 2 to State 3, but you have demonstrated the ability to do that in your calculations that correctly adjust from State 1 to State 2.  So I would not think that would be necessary.  Is it a demonstration of this step that you would like me to provide?
You're an engineer. You've been to university.  Then you know what you need to show:  For each value that you develop you need to show the equation that gets you there.  Express the problem into just one giant equation, or some number of simpler equations.  What you have shown are some values from some non-specific equations.  That's crap and you know it.

So either stop with the games and actually show your work, or call it a day. 

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #936 on: March 11, 2014, 07:53:28 PM »
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Offline Marsing

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #937 on: March 11, 2014, 08:04:19 PM »

ok   mondrasek, pencil,papper and calculator,
i guess my question have been answered. i will ask if i have more next time

i see marke asked you this, he said...

"If you want me to audit your work, then you need to show your work.  You can write out the equations you used, or you can enter them into something like Excel, or do whatever else you need to actually show the process you relied upon to get your errant results".

maybe, markE is waiting equations that you use, and only from you. 

add :
 i dont know you have asked again before my post  markE , lol     

 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #938 on: March 11, 2014, 08:09:11 PM »

ok then  mondrasek, pencil,papper and calculator,
i guess my question have been answered. i will ask if i have more next time

i see marke asked you this, he said...

"If you want me to audit your work, then you need to show your work.  You can write out the equations you used, or you can enter them into something like Excel, or do whatever else you need to actually show the process you relied upon to get your errant results".

maybe, markE is waiting equations that you use, and only from you.
That is exactly what I am doing.  Mondrasek is playing this BS game that it is up to others to second guess and then do the work he has supposedly already done in order to check his work.   Except that they won't be checking his work.  They will be checking their guess as to what his work might be.  It's stupid.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #938 on: March 11, 2014, 08:09:11 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #939 on: March 11, 2014, 08:26:13 PM »
Well,, I am curious as to the the change in water level in the soda bottle,, and a little curious about the height of the little bottle in the vented, sealed and just released and the equilibrium reached after release.  Is that a change in the water height inside the little bottle without a change in the clearance from the top of the soda bottle to the, what is now, the top of the little bottle??
No tricks were played.  No water was added or removed from the system in between any of the pictures.  The photographs were annotated with text and arrows.  The collage cropped the photos to fit in a file that this server could take.  The photos were not retouched or Photoshopped in any way.  When the little bottle goes down the water in the outer bottle goes up.
Quote

So the water level in the soda bottle goes from Up to down a little down a little more and then up a little, and the little bottle is down the same then up and then the same,, but it looks like the water level in the little bottle went up in the last picture without the little bottle moving up.
You can tell where the little bottle is by looking at the clearance between the flexible part of the straws and the top of the 2 liter bottle.  In the fully down position the two straws closest to the camera align the bottom of their flexible sections to the top of the larger bottle.  In the next picture, both the water bottle and water within the water bottle have risen, while the water level outside has fallen as it must.  If the contrast isn't good enough I can retake the pictures using red food coloring in the water.
Quote

I keep wanting to rotate the pictures a little bit,, they are angled,, nit picking :)

Of course this little funny thing could be due to a change in camera position and angle, just making it *look* like there was a magical after the sealed event increase in water in the little bottle,, or maybe making it look like the little bottle did not raise anymore even tho it might have,, I mean it looks like the straws went up,, but then that also looks like the water level in the soda bottle went up as well,, and it looks like the bottle is both angled in the water as well as twisted,,
It looks like the camera was about 2deg CW.  That's not enough to screw with anything.  I use a simple tripod that has a swivel in it.  Apparently I did not get it dead level.

When in doubt:  replicate.  It is not difficult or expensive to do.
Quote
BUT, if I were to go with the photos as shown I would have to assume that the water volume in the soda bottle increased as well as the water volume in the little bottle as the little bottle was rising and the straws grew taller.
That would not be physically reasonable.  There is only one water volume and in the collage you can see the levels converge as air vents out the top of the smaller bottle.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #940 on: March 11, 2014, 08:31:02 PM »
You're an engineer. You've been to university.  Then you know what you need to show:  For each value that you develop you need to show the equation that gets you there.  Express the problem into just one giant equation, or some number of simpler equations.  What you have shown are some values from some non-specific equations.  That's crap and you know it.

So either stop with the games and actually show your work, or call it a day.

MarkE, I'll call it a day.  I'm not in school and need not conform to any rules to pass a class.  Neither am I presenting a proof for publication in any Science Journal.  I am showing others on an Internet Forum how I Analyzed the ZED using math, CAD, and a Calculator.  If they want to share in that, they can follow the presented methodology (which includes equations) and see if they result in the same values that have been presented.  They can also decide for themselves if the conclusions drawn are supported by those methods and math.  And I offer to assist anyone who has any question along the way.

AFAIK, the only tricky part is calculating the water column heights for whatever State 3 you want to finish with.  The lift creates some internal Volumn changes that can be missed initially.  That got me two years ago and again on my first attempt more recently.  If anyone wants assistance with that I am happy to help.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #940 on: March 11, 2014, 08:31:02 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #941 on: March 11, 2014, 08:45:20 PM »
i see marke asked you this, he said...

"If you want me to audit your work, then you need to show your work. 

Marsing, only I never asked MarkE, or anyone, to "audit" my work.  I asked if anyone would double check my work.  And that can be done by different methods.  For example, I initially calculated new Water heights for State 3 by working from the inside out comparing Volumes and moving the boundary levels previously found in State 2 in CAD.  I then double checked the work by comparing Volumes of the Air and Water in each area to those in State 1 and State 2, which is a slightly different method.  Then I triple checked the work by calculating the Energy in the Water in each state as well as introduced by the charge and seeing if those values all compared properly, a completely different and valid method.

So there are different methods, and I could show several for most steps, but I encourage others to pick their own OR follow what I did. 

Now since my methods and MarkE's both arrive at the same State 2, I see no reason to back up and "show my work" that is proven to result in identical results with MarkE.  But I did agree to "show the work" moving forward from State 2 to State 3 since that is where we diverged.  And this, I believe, I have done.  With descriptions, equations, and example calculations.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #942 on: March 11, 2014, 09:05:14 PM »



   Mondrasek,
                     what's wrong with you? You'll never get anywhere with that attitude.
   You've got to present a comprehensive piece of work, doesn't matter if you do
   it on an abacus or count it on your fingers, you must show all your workings just
   like is required when you're at school. The right answer alone won't cut it unless
   it is backed by your method.
       Nobody can read your mind.
    You seem to be an ardent ZED supporter, as is shown by your looking at pentane.
    The ZED is a labyrinth, an oscillating one at that. The power (rate of doing work)
    that could be handled is minimal, someone mentioned about three rpm. If such a
    thing were to work it would have to be colossal. You're an engineer so you must
    know what happens when you start interrupting the flow of a fairly dense liquid
    you get a shock wave. My grandfather fed his farm with water by using the kinetic
    energy of a spring, using a ram pump.
       As for the math, you know the answer!
                                  John


Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #943 on: March 11, 2014, 09:18:44 PM »
Minnie, if I felt that MarkE's intentions were to learn anything, I might be inclined to do differently.  But he clearly was able to present a correct State 2, but refused, at first, to present a State 3.  Instead he simply "waved his hands" and said that for reasons previously explained, it cannot work.  I found that to be disingenuous at first.  But he did agree to continue.  It is at that point he deviated to a Volume in = Volume out approach, instead of the clearly stated method of checking if Energy in = Energy out.  And he has had many "errors" ever since.  Including the ridiculous claim that the buoyancy Force is calculated by the ID and not the OD.

So I find that MarkE is not working in good faith to help with anything.  He is only disrupting now.  In fact, he is trying, once again, to make us go back to the beginning.  Why do you think that is?  I know why, do you?

If anyone who displays a desire to learn what I presented and cannot on their own (I hope many can) I would be happy to help.  But MarkE's demands will not stop.  And nothing that I present will ever be satisfactory.  And he will never let the Analysis be completed if he is involved.

So, why bother?

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #944 on: March 11, 2014, 09:37:57 PM »



  Mondrasek,
                  now you really are sounding like Travis. You could easily have done what is
    required in the time you spent triple checking with a calculator.
       My opinion is that you really don't want to know the truth, it might hurt.
                                            John.




 

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