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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 515433 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #915 on: March 11, 2014, 04:28:58 PM »
I have explained and showed my methods for the Analysis from the point where it diverges from MarkE's at after State 2.  That begins here:  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  Each post tells the reasoning for the method used, the equations used, and a sample calculation.

Really guys, no spread sheet is needed to follow along.  Each presented value can be obtained by following the example and substituting the proper numbers that are shown on the presented diagram.  I am prepared to engage if you find a problem with either the reasoning, the equations used, or the resultant values that are all posted.
I did not demand a spreadsheet.  You can show your work in any number of ways.  You elected to present a spreadsheet that has around 75 values in it, but no supporting equations to obtain those values.  You have been refusing to provide what you say you want audited.   

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #915 on: March 11, 2014, 04:28:58 PM »

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #916 on: March 11, 2014, 04:42:13 PM »
I did not demand a spreadsheet.  You can show your work in any number of ways.  You elected to present a spreadsheet that has around 75 values in it, but no supporting equations to obtain those values.  You have been refusing to provide what you say you want audited.

I have explained and showed my methods for the Analysis from the point where it diverges from MarkE's at after State 2.  That begins here:  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  Each post tells the reasoning for the method used, the equations used, and a sample calculation.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #917 on: March 11, 2014, 04:47:47 PM »
Could you show a picture of the initial start condition prior to the first sink?

Thanks
Same as in post #956 here again.  The vent at the top is open.  The system is in stable equilibrium.  The amount of water displaced by the submerged part of the bottle and the soda straws equals the weight of the water bottle plus soda straw assembly.  You can see that it is riding way up high in the larger 2 liter vessel.  The only reason that it has any portion submerged is that the PET water bottle material is denser than water as is slightly the hot glue and soda straw plastic.


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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #917 on: March 11, 2014, 04:47:47 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #918 on: March 11, 2014, 04:51:13 PM »
I have explained and showed my methods for the Analysis from the point where it diverges from MarkE's at after State 2.  That begins here:  http://www.overunity.com/14299/mathematical-analysis-of-an-ideal-zed/msg391999/#msg391999  Each post tells the reasoning for the method used, the equations used, and a sample calculation.
Who will follow you down your lovely garden path?  You do see the picture above in the post to Webby don't you?  What does that tell you about your assumptions?  If that doesn't do it for you, then allow me to show you this picture:

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #919 on: March 11, 2014, 05:06:46 PM »
Let's not forget that before that picture, we had this situation where the vent had been open until the water levels equalized.  What do these slides tell us?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #919 on: March 11, 2014, 05:06:46 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #920 on: March 11, 2014, 05:19:45 PM »
What can we observe about the internal energy in each of the four pictures that make up this collage?  How do any of them relate to the internal energy of the up and fully vented position picture below the collage?  Here are a couple of hints:  The first three pictures result from the weights being on top of the water bottle, but the water bottle does not move up or down.  The fourth image results from allowing the sealed at the bottom with water equalized condition to find a new equilibrium state.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #921 on: March 11, 2014, 05:29:54 PM »
MarkE, while your demonstrations are interesting, they do not include what I believe to be a key feature in the ZED.  And that is the nested risers that are all supported by buoyant Forces due to the water in annuli separate by ring walls.  That feature appears to allow a single input Pressure and Volume to affect the buoyant Forces on multiple pod and risers.  By the Analysis method I used and am using, which is quite the same as used on the no-pod, single riser example that we digressed to earlier and finally arrived at identical results, I find unusual results.  Those unusual results change from a non-conservative and lossy under unity condition for a 2-layer system to a non-conservative and over unity condition for a 3-layer.

What changed with the addition of 3rd riser to the previous 2-layer system?  The Vin remained the same.  The Pin average went up.  But the Pout average went up substantially more.  All that is due to adding another riser in another annulus separate by another ring wall.  Without those unique features I do not believe you will witness anything extraordinary.  So I don't think your demonstrations help with the ZED question, though they are fine to teach textbook Archimedes buoyancy interactions.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #921 on: March 11, 2014, 05:29:54 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #922 on: March 11, 2014, 05:37:18 PM »
DOH!!

My bad,,

So the first pic is where the bottle and pontoons come to rest,, then you push the little bottle down with a hole in the top of little bottle, then you seal that hole and let it come back up allowing the pontoons to lift the little bottle and the water inside the little bottle up so the water level inside the little bottle is above the water level in the soda bottle.

Besides wasting potential force again, by just venting the air instead of running it through something like the exquisite little motor TK showed us to showcase his machining skills, what is it you are trying to show?
You've got the sequence right.  The only thing that you've got tangled up is using the invented term:  "potential force".  This demonstration demonstrates, in hopefully not too subtle terms the nature of the energy states.  Once the relationship of the energy states are known then one can compare those to the claimed ZED process and see if they are informative.  (Spoiler alert:  They are informative.)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #923 on: March 11, 2014, 05:43:12 PM »
MarkE, while your demonstrations are interesting, they do not include what I believe to be a key feature in the ZED.  And that is the nested risers that are all supported by buoyant Forces due to the water in annuli separate by ring walls.  That feature appears to allow a single input Pressure and Volume to affect the buoyant Forces on multiple pod and risers.  By the Analysis method I used and am using, which is quite the same as used on the no-pod, single riser example that we digressed to earlier and finally arrived at identical results, I find unusual results.  Those unusual results change from a non-conservative and lossy under unity condition for a 2-layer system to a non-conservative and over unity condition for a 3-layer.

What changed with the addition of 3rd riser to the previous 2-layer system?  The Vin remained the same.  The Pin average went up.  But the Pout average went up substantially more.  All that is due to adding another riser in another annulus separate by another ring wall.  Without those unique features I do not believe you will witness anything extraordinary.  So I don't think your demonstrations help with the ZED question, though they are fine to teach textbook Archimedes buoyancy interactions.
They do not need to deal with that unnecessary complexity to make the critical points.  If you ever get around to performing your math in an auditable way, then you may see the reality of the situation.  Or you can put what you think your math tells you to a physical test and find out that you've built a bogus representation.

Again, if you understand your basic physics, then you know that buoyancy is just good old conservative gravity operating on fluids.  If you calculate an over unity result, you've mad a mistake in your model, your calculations, your transcriptions or some combination of the above. 

There has never been anything demonstrated by HER/Zydro or anyone else to show any deviation of their Nested Russian Dolls of Ignorance from Archimedes' Principle.

Tell me what the relative energy states are of the five pictures:  Left to right in the collage, and full up state in the picture below the collage.

What should you be reminded of by the picture below?  What does the picture that follows it say about one of your assertions?  Are the water levels not equal?  Did they not equalize due to venting?  So why is it that the bottle not only rises once sealed, it takes water up with it?  And why is it that if we let it vent, it goes even higher?

Here is a clue:  There are no ZED questions.  There is 2000 year old hydrostatics.  There is the calculus.  There are the lies by HER/Zydro that things like air are responsible for buoyancy in water.   And there are the fraudulent claims of HER/Zydro that they have a free energy machine.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #923 on: March 11, 2014, 05:43:12 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #924 on: March 11, 2014, 05:58:03 PM »
What should you be reminded of by the picture below?  What does the picture that follows it say about one of your assertions?  Are the water levels not equal?  Did they not equalize due to venting?  So why is it that the bottle not only rises once sealed, it takes water up with it?  And why is it that if we let it vent, it goes even higher?

Your demonstration clearly shows that in a system with more than one buoyant object (where the objects are in interfering contact with each other) it is the SUM of the buoyant Forces that must equal ZERO for the system to be in equilibrium.  Any negative buoyant Force in your bottle due to a negative water Head is exactly balanced by the positive buoyant Forces due to the positive water Head on each pontoon straw.  If the water levels are the same, the pontoons are simply supporting the weight of the bottle, themselves, the tape, etc.

Checking for a balanced buoyant Force condition in the State 3 state is the first step I have show.  Both on your State 3 where it was not zero (it was a negative value showing your State 3 would need to sink to find equilibrium) and my own State 3 where it was also not zero (it was a positive value showing my State 3 would need to RISE to find equilibrium).

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #925 on: March 11, 2014, 06:08:57 PM »
Your demonstration clearly shows that in a system with more than one buoyant object (where the objects are in interfering contact with each other) it is the SUM of the buoyant Forces that must equal ZERO for the system to be in equilibrium.  The negative buoyant Force in your bottle due to the negative water Head is exactly balanced by the positive buoyant Forces due to the positive water Head on each pontoon straw.
Good, I am glad you accept that.  Now, look back at State 1 and apply the same principle.
Quote

Checking for a balanced buoyant Force condition in the State 3 state is the first step I have show.  Both on your State 3 where it was not zero (it was a negative value showing your State 3 would need to sink to find equilibrium) and my own State 3 where it was also not zero (it was a positive value showing my State 3 would need to RISE to find equilibrium).
We both sought to find zero net up force in State 3.  We used different methods.  The question is whether either method was in fact correct.  I know that it was stupid me for conceding a point I shouldn't have that State 1 is in equilibrium, because as these demonstrations prove, it is not.  The same logic that you assert: that the ring walls are supported from below by the buoyant force of the water beneath them in State 2 and State 3, is also true in State 1.  We had to do real work to first sink the riser assembly, and then we had to continue to apply force to keep it down, or more accurately:  to keep the water in the annular rings 2 through 7 up above the relaxed level of 22mm to the elevated level of 32.5mm.  That represents additional stored energy in State 1 that is available to attempt to lift the risers above their most submerged depth at 1mm above the base.  This in turn should cause you to question what the hell it was that you did in your calculations to arrive at the conclusion that the energy added in State 2 is the only energy that tries to escape by pushing up the risers.  They would go up from State 1 as shown in this demonstration. 

We can figure out what I did wrong in my calculations because I have shown all of my work.  We cannot figure out what you have done wrong until you show yours. 

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #925 on: March 11, 2014, 06:08:57 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #926 on: March 11, 2014, 06:21:14 PM »
Just to help a little bit here.

Would it not be better to use a one way valve in the bottom of the little bottle,, that is what you have made with your vent.

Then you *could* just use the old method of a lever, a bucket on a string and a weight on the other end of the lever,, since that is all you have made.

The pontoons are what is lifting the thing, no interaction with them so there is no correlation to the ZED.
For purposes of the demonstration the tape is completely adequate.  All that we need to know is:

1) What is the equilibrium condition with the vent open?  We have that in the full up picture.
2) What is the condition, equilibrium or non-equilibrium when in the down position and the water levels have equalized due to the open vent?

The pontoons do not do any lifting.  All of the lifting is done by the water.  The pontoons reduce the lift due to their non-zero density.  The pontoons are a close approximation to the massless risers specified for the "ideal ZED".  Had the combination of the pontoons and the water bottle been truly massless then the relaxed up position would be floating on the surface of the water, instead of partially submerged.  In this respect the demonstration is more like a real ZED than the "ideal ZED" because any real ZED's risers have materials with an SG > 1.0.  If they are hollowed out, those air bubbles would act like the soda straw pontoons.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #927 on: March 11, 2014, 06:23:57 PM »
Good, I am glad you accept that.  Now, look back at State 1 and apply the same principle.

Nope.  Our air is assumed incompressible.

We both sought to find zero net up force in State 3.  We used different methods.  The question is whether either method was in fact correct.  I know that it was stupid me for conceding a point I shouldn't have that State 1 is in equilibrium, because as these demonstrations prove, it is not.  The same logic that you assert: that the ring walls are supported from below by the buoyant force of the water beneath them in State 2 and State 3, is also true in State 1.  We had to do real work to first sink the riser assembly, and then we had to continue to apply force to keep it down, or more accurately:  to keep the water in the annular rings 2 through 7 up above the relaxed level of 22mm to the elevated level of 32.5mm.  That represents additional stored energy in State 1 that is available to attempt to lift the risers above their most submerged depth at 1mm above the base.  This in turn should cause you to question what the hell it was that you did in your calculations to arrive at the conclusion that the energy added in State 2 is the only energy that tries to escape by pushing up the risers.  They would go up from State 1 as shown in this demonstration. 

We can figure out what I did wrong in my calculations because I have shown all of my work.  We cannot figure out what you have done wrong until you show yours.

You have cleverly played with your system until the VACUUM you are inducing in the air inside the bottle is balancing the buoyancy Forces from your pontoons.  If anyone cares to make something similar they will find that they cannot achieve the identical water inside and outside that you show by the methods you describe.  Do you know why?  I do.

Offline Marsing

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #928 on: March 11, 2014, 06:29:36 PM »
hi..  mondrasek

it seem that you asked someone to repair your car or something without touching it, with closed eyes, is there something that you hide inside?
as PC is your toy and you are also VBA programmer, how could it be so difficult for you to learn only a bit of excel ?,
there is no doubt that you know exactly a help button in excel and you know google is a huge library. I'm sure you will not regret exploring excel features.  say goodbye to calculator   :) 


Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #929 on: March 11, 2014, 06:36:48 PM »
Nope.  Our air is assumed incompressible.

You have cleverly played with your system until the VACUUM you are inducing in the air inside the bottle is balancing the buoyancy Forces from your pontoons.  If anyone cares to make something similar they will find that they cannot achieve the identical water inside and outside that you show by the methods you describe.  Do you know why?  I do.
There you go Mr. I won't show my work insinuating that I have done something underhanded.  I haven't.  There is nothing here that I "played with".  I added pontoons until the net assembly had an SG well under 1.0.  The risers you stiplulated have an SG of 0.  So let's do some free body diagrams, shall we?  The up relaxed picture with the vent open is slightly submerged.  Fb_up = Fg.

Any of the cases even with the vent open require an additional force to overcome Fb_down.

Fb_down > Fb_up, Ftotal down > Fg.  The weight provides the extra force.

This extra force is not only self-evident in the sealed assembly's ability to draw water up such that:

Fb_middle = Fg + Fg_water_updraw

So go ahead and build this thing.  Show me that I've gamed it somehow.  And then eat crow, because you won't be able to show that I have gamed anything.  These experiments like all the work I have presented are completely transparent.

 

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