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### Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 680352 times)

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2014, 09:46:52 PM »

Let me help you TK - you can't rove our system is anything less than we claim....

End of story.

Good Day - I have a meeting.

Heh... guess what, I don't have to "rove" or prove anything at all! YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING CLAIMS, it is up to you to "rove" them. But you cannot, all you can do is point to LarryC's apparently two dimensional spreadsheet numbers. Where is the self-running system you have claimed to have? Nowhere, that's where. Go ahead, prove me wrong. You cannot !

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2014, 10:01:14 PM »

Thanks for checking the math, any confusion that is perceive helps me to improve the example.

The water head in the Pod is equal to water in the pod chamber annular ring heights, however the water head for the riser is equal to the Outermost annular ring (O1) - Next inner annular ring (O2).

Thus the 95 represents 100 in O1 - 5 in O2. Then during equalization the water dropped 15 in the Pod to 35. When this occurs, the water in O2 follows up and rises 15 to 20 and the water in O1 follows down and lowers to 85. So now the water head is 65 which represents 85 in O1 - 20 in O2. That is why I brought up earlier that 1X changes in the Pod Water causes 2X change in riser water head as Wayne stated early is his thread.

You can see this effect in the drawings.

Larry

Got hung up on explaining water head and forgot to mention about your volume point. In actual practice the gaps are adjusted to maintain water head at a desired performance level in each Riser. These kind of calculations are done in my complex spreadsheet, but I was trying to keep this simple for easy understanding. I can add if that small difference is your hangup.

#### mondrasek

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1301
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2014, 10:29:03 PM »
No, I don't think that is right. I considered this issue before when the "incompressible fluid" was replacing the air in the trapped chambers. The outer ringwall and the outermost layer of trapped whatever seals the rest of the system from contact with the outside air, and even in spite of that, there is nothing happening, or that can happen, in any Zed system that can change the pressure of the _outside air_.

TK, here the "red box" has been drawn around the ZED system.  The charge water is not shown in the diagram on the left, but is assumed to cross that barrier and enter the system into the pod chamber to result in the state of the center diagram.  When doing so, air in the outer annulus (shown in yellow) is also pushed across that barrier.  Then when the system is allowed to stroke, the Outer Riser (and the volume within it's borders) crosses the barrier at the top.  When doing so, the initial volume of air in the outer annulus crosses back into the system, and is followed by even more air.  Therefore the system is open to the atmosphere, right?  Am I misunderstanding what you presented?

#### LarryC

• Hero Member
• Posts: 911
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2014, 10:38:47 PM »

Got hung up on explaining water head and forgot to mention about your volume point. In actual practice the gaps are adjusted to maintain water head at a desired performance level in each Riser. These kind of calculations are done in my complex spreadsheet, but I was trying to keep this simple for easy understanding. I can add if that small difference is your hangup.

Went ahead and added a riser gap that would give it the same SI as the pod gap. Wanted to see how big a difference it would make in the efficiency. Darn, it went from 153.94% to 153.56%.
Larry

#### MarkE

• Hero Member
• Posts: 6830
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2014, 10:48:12 PM »

Got hung up on explaining water head and forgot to mention about your volume point. In actual practice the gaps are adjusted to maintain water head at a desired performance level in each Riser. These kind of calculations are done in my complex spreadsheet, but I was trying to keep this simple for easy understanding. I can add if that small difference is your hangup.
Larry, it is not my hang up.  It is that the math does not represent the model represented.  It's like estimating pi as 3.  Whether or not that is close enough depends on the circumstances.  In order to determine the magnitude of the error, one has to reverse engineer your spreadsheet, guess your intent, then substitute the correct relationships and evaluate the differences.  That is a big PITA and rather unreasonable.  It would be very helpful for you to state your assumptions, and for you to perform sanity tests on your own as to the validity of those assumptions.  Introducing ~16% error terms is a recipe for trouble.  I don't care if you fix the ring dimensions for constant area or keep them on a 0.5" grid as long as your calculations represent the model faithfully.

Let me make a suggestion that will make it easier to keep simple numbers on the spreadsheet:  Assign a constant to pi/4.  Then you can represent all your circular areas in integer units multiplied by the constant.  This should make it easier for you to audit your calculations.  The other thing that can be an immense help is to use named fields.  That saves a lot of chasing around.  Instead of a formula looking like: = \$H\$2*F19*E12 it would look like:  = riser_diameter*riser_length.  My last suggestion you may or may not like:  Using MKS units generally makes it easier to avoid mistakes between mass and force.  I can work in whatever units you are comfortable using.

#### mrwayne

• Hero Member
• Posts: 975
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2014, 10:51:51 PM »
Heh... guess what, I don't have to "rove" or prove anything at all! YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING CLAIMS, it is up to you to "rove" them. But you cannot, all you can do is point to LarryC's apparently two dimensional spreadsheet numbers. Where is the self-running system you have claimed to have? Nowhere, that's where. Go ahead, prove me wrong. You cannot !

I am a really nice guy - so if this is too much - let me apologize up front:

Here is what I have learned from your last 300+ postings

Larry has demonstrated more intelligence and capability than I have ever seen from you and your socks.

You could learn three things from Larry - manners, due diligences (before slander),  and how non conservative is possible.

Monderask and Larry has supplied what you need. Stop wasting my time with your diversions.

Mathematical Analysis - take your time.

Wayne

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2014, 11:01:15 PM »
TK, here the "red box" has been drawn around the ZED system.  The charge water is not shown in the diagram on the left, but is assumed to cross that barrier and enter the system into the pod chamber to result in the state of the center diagram.  When doing so, air in the outer annulus (shown in yellow) is also pushed across that barrier.  Then when the system is allowed to stroke, the Outer Riser (and the volume within it's borders) crosses the barrier at the top.  When doing so, the initial volume of air in the outer annulus crosses back into the system, and is followed by even more air.  Therefore the system is open to the atmosphere, right?  Am I misunderstanding what you presented?

What would you do if I told you I was colorblind?

Just kidding. The outer part always sees the same pressure from the outside air, whether the yellow lines are out, in, or neutral. Therefore the outer air pressure doesn't make any difference between the three states. Open to the atmosphere is one thing, able to be affected by it is another. Your system is NOT open in the same way that the Cartesian Diver is, where the surrounding fluid pressure changes DO affect the buoyancy.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2014, 11:05:00 PM »
I am a really nice guy - so if this is too much - let me apologize up front:

Here is what I have learned from your last 300+ postings

Larry has demonstrated more intelligence and capability than I have ever seen from you and your socks.

You could learn three things from Larry - manners, due diligences (before slander),  and how non conservative is possible.

Monderask and Larry has supplied what you need. Stop wasting my time with your diversions.

Mathematical Analysis - take your time.

Wayne

Again you misrepresent me and what I am and what I do. On this side of the Red River, we call that Lying, and it's a violation of one of the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Remember that one?

YOU could learn a thing or two about what is required to support a claim like yours, and it isn't error-full spreadsheets making false assumptions.

YOU are wasting OUR time, and everyone else's time, by not demonstrating the truth (sic) of your claims. But of course we know that you cannot.

How did your meeting go? Pretty short meeting. Did you cut it short to rush back here and insult me, yet again?

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2014, 11:08:03 PM »
Quote
In actual practice the gaps are adjusted to maintain water head at a desired performance level in each Riser.

This sure sounds to me like you have a "desired performance level" at the outset, and you "adjust" the data in order to reach that level. Is that really the way experimental research is done?

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2014, 11:08:35 PM »
Wayne:

Quote
Monderask and Larry has supplied what you need

Without being specific to Larry because I haven't followed his spreadsheet, I note MarkE's comments:

Quote
In order to determine the magnitude of the error, one has to reverse engineer your spreadsheet, guess your intent, then substitute the correct relationships and evaluate the differences.  That is a big PITA and rather unreasonable.  It would be very helpful for you to state your assumptions, and for you to perform sanity tests on your own as to the validity of those assumptions.

And yet you endorse LarryC.   You endorse Webby when he can barely explain himself.   You are one piece of work.

With respect to you:

Quote
I am a really nice guy
- brainwashing attempt
Quote
Larry has demonstrated more intelligence and capability
- brainwashing attempt
Quote
and how non conservative is possible
- brainwashing attempt
Quote
Monderask and Larry has supplied what you need
- brainwashing attempt

Quote
due diligences

That one I can latch onto and agree with.

Wayne, please demonstrate YOURSELF that YOU have something.  That is the real due diligence.

Do you have anything?  ANYTHING?

MileHigh

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2014, 11:18:57 PM »
Of course he has. He has another meeting.

#### mrwayne

• Hero Member
• Posts: 975
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2014, 11:38:40 PM »
How did your meeting go? Pretty short meeting. Did you cut it short to rush back here and insult me, yet again?

The interview went well.

Now that I am sure you know the concept of making ignorant claims against other people is wrong - I will apologize to you when you do.

Wayne

#### mrwayne

• Hero Member
• Posts: 975
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2014, 11:44:38 PM »
Wayne:

Without being specific to Larry because I haven't followed his spreadsheet, I note MarkE's comments:

And yet you endorse LarryC.   You endorse Webby when he can barely explain himself.   You are one piece of work.

With respect to you:
- brainwashing attempt - brainwashing attempt - brainwashing attempt - brainwashing attempt

That one I can latch onto and agree with.

Wayne, please demonstrate YOURSELF that YOU have something.  That is the real due diligence.

Do you have anything?  ANYTHING?

MileHigh

I am sorry MH - you should ask Monderask or Larry to explain.

It is an eye opener - not a preconceived notion.

Wayne

#### mondrasek

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1301
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2014, 11:46:21 PM »
What would you do if I told you I was colorblind?

That would suck on so many levels.  But I think we could then resort to labels.  But it would be so much harder to follow.

My apologies to any colorblind individuals trying to follow along.

Just kidding. The outer part always sees the same pressure from the outside air, whether the yellow lines are out, in, or neutral. Therefore the outer air pressure doesn't make any difference between the three states. Open to the atmosphere is one thing, able to be affected by it is another. Your system is NOT open in the same way that the Cartesian Diver is, where the surrounding fluid pressure changes DO affect the buoyancy.

TK, I never said that the atmospheric air pressure makes any difference to any pressures inside the ZED.  Thankfully, it doesn't!  What having the outer annulus open to the atmosphere does do is allow for the Vin to NOT equal the Vout.  Because air also moves freely into and out of the system from the atmosphere and adds ANOTHER V (that is not costing us anything) that must be accounted for in an Energy Balance.

The air that freely crosses into and out of the system allows the water levels to redistribute to satisfy simple volumetric constraints.  And when allowed to do so it results in a lift force that is due to BUOYANCY, not the usual pressure * volume relationship found in a simple hydraulic cylinder.

#### mrwayne

• Hero Member
• Posts: 975
##### Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2014, 11:47:16 PM »