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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 489232 times)

Offline powercat

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #870 on: March 10, 2014, 01:00:12 PM »
This is my Final Farewell to O/U.com


What again  ::)  if I had a dollar for every time you said you were leaving I would now have at least $4.00, you just can't help breaking your word, you are a true and genuine liar, your historic words are there for all to see, from the man who says he always tells the truth, you are such a deceitful person, the name Wayne travesty fits you perfectly, you are a complete travesty.  It is so obvious after all these years that you do not have what you claim, that's why you waste your time here regurgitating the same old "it works in my opinion because I say so" and when you next return nothing will have changed just like all the times before, because you don't have a working device and you are a conman.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #870 on: March 10, 2014, 01:00:12 PM »

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #871 on: March 10, 2014, 01:46:54 PM »



    Webby,
                you do seem to come across as a Travis supporter.
    I'm not a scientist but I do have experience of real life
    machines.
         I haven't learned a thing from Travis,Larry or Red_Sunset,
    with the exception that there was "fow assist" on Larry's
    diagrams.
         MarkE has put in a huge amount of effort trying to help
    us see what's going on, then he gets treated rudely by those
    he's trying to assist.
         TK. has done some amazing videos on a whole range of
    topics, and they're that well done that it's easy to see what's
    going on.
        As for Magluvin--- I just don't know.
    Just think about it, have you learned one fact from Travis &
    Co? As far as I can see all that comes from Travis is page
    after page after page of waffle.
                                             John.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #872 on: March 10, 2014, 01:55:57 PM »
PURE BS TK.

I am not amused with your behavior at all TK.

I answered this question DIRECTLY and in the thread.

Do you wish to tell any more lies about ME TK?
What do you believe that you were ever able to show with that mock-up of yours? 
Was your opinion affected by the 'prize money' paid? 
What was the reason that the 'prize money' was paid?

Do you believe that the density of water materially changes depending on where you put it or what time it is?
  If you do, then do you have any examples where that can be seen?
Do you believe that the density of solids materially change depending on where you put them or what time it is?
  If you do, then do you have any examples where that can be seen?
Do you believe that the ordinary air can be made to deviate from the ideal gas law in an energy favorable way?
  If you do, then do you have any examples where that can be seen?

And if you either don't believe any of these three things, or don't have any examples that you can point to, then on what basis do you have any faith in HER/Zydro's claims?



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #872 on: March 10, 2014, 01:55:57 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #873 on: March 10, 2014, 02:13:15 PM »



   Was the Koala right with ZED, zero energy device, or would LED be nearer
   the mark, lossy energy device?
                                              John.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #874 on: March 10, 2014, 02:36:46 PM »


   Was the Koala right with ZED, zero energy device, or would LED be nearer
   the mark, lossy energy device?
                                              John.
Well, we deal with these very basic things that may be strung together in non-intuitive ways, but they still retain their fundamental behaviors.  At the end of the day, the machine sloshes around some masses of different types.  Various of the mechanisms are fundamentally lossy.  One cannot even break even with them.  The more such processes that are concatenated the greater the percentage losses each cycle.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #874 on: March 10, 2014, 02:36:46 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #875 on: March 10, 2014, 02:41:17 PM »
The only thing that I am willing to discuss is the analysis you claimed to have in the OP but you refuse to produce.  Produce your analysis or don't.  If you don't, then you will continue to make it obvious that you have been blowing smoke the entire time.

MarkE, since I find your State 3 that I began to Analyze on Sunday to be in an unstable state (it has a net negative buoyant Force) that issue needs to be resolved or that State 3 discarded.  I will revert back to the Analysis I performed weeks ago.  I posted the three States that I had calculated very early on in this thread and asked for anyone to double check the work.  I thought that is what you were doing.  You chose to pursue a different State 3 which was fine with me at the time.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #876 on: March 10, 2014, 02:56:05 PM »
Our Analyses agree through State 2.  However, I am using a greater amount of significant digits and different constants.  For Density of Water I am using 1g/cc while you used .9982g/cc.  For the Acceleration of Gravity I am using 9.81N/kg while you used 9.80665N/kg.  Therefore my results differ from your by a miniscule percentage.  The Energies I calculate are:

Energy in State 1 = 3.41964mJ
Energy added to go from State 1 to State 2 = 2.10293mJ
Energy in State 3 = 5.52257mJ

You can see how those values compare with those you included in your State 2 below.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #876 on: March 10, 2014, 02:56:05 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #877 on: March 10, 2014, 04:00:21 PM »
MarkE,

I was able to have a fairly efficient lift with a fair amount of recovery from that lift, as gauged by the level of the reservoir to the fluid returned into it.

My opinion was not affected by the "prize" money.

I am not sure why the prize money was paid.  I found out about that after I released information and pictures of TBZED.

My opinion on the function of the ZED system is based on the observation that the ZED does not pick up rocks and drop them.  I observed a change in modality between lift and sink that leads me to believe that the system operates as 2 independent items depending on which way the fluid is moving through the system.

These two systems share all the same parts, fluids and pressures, this took me a while to think through.

The buoyant lift or sink can be changed by changing the direction of fluid flow into or out of the pod chamber.

I had VERY good lifts, and I had VERY, VERY bad lifts,, this I interpreted as meaning that there should be a designed setup for ideal run for a set of given requirements.

I even used TK's videos as something to compare my thoughts with, in those he demonstrated the processes that would need to be present in order for the system to work as I was thinking it might.
webby you talk about the efficiency of lift.  What did you do to measure the energy consumed to get through a whole cycle, or only bits and pieces of a cycle?  Did your mock up have an external output?  If it did, what did you do to measure the energy delivered to that output cycle by cycle?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #878 on: March 10, 2014, 04:05:51 PM »
Our Analyses agree through State 2.  However, I am using a greater amount of significant digits and different constants.  For Density of Water I am using 1g/cc while you used .9982g/cc.  For the Acceleration of Gravity I am using 9.81N/kg while you used 9.80665N/kg.  Therefore my results differ from your by a miniscule percentage.  The Energies I calculate are:

Energy in State 1 = 3.41964mJ
Energy added to go from State 1 to State 2 = 2.10293mJ
Energy in State 3 = 5.52257mJ

You can see how those values compare with those you included in your State 2 below.
Showing values is nice.  Showing values reached at the end does not show how you got there.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #878 on: March 10, 2014, 04:05:51 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #879 on: March 10, 2014, 05:03:03 PM »
Showing values is nice.  Showing values reached at the end does not show how you got there.

Here is the spreadsheet where I recorded all the values that were generated on the Casio calculator that I used.  The calculations were performed "by hand" so there are no formulas in the spreadsheet except to sum the Energies in each water annulus for each State.  Those are at the bottom and were run as a triple check really.  I'll post the equations used as I get to that point in my explanation of the methods I used, why, and the results that you can see ahead of time if you want to look at the attached data.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #880 on: March 10, 2014, 05:32:57 PM »
The Theory Under Test in this Analysis is that the ZED is satisfying an Energy in = Energy out relationship.  Since the Energy in was supplied as a known volume of water injected at a start Pressure of zero, and ending at a higher end Pressure, the Energy in can be calculated as the integral of F*ds, which for this case resolves to simply Pave*V.

In order to find Pave it is necessary to find Pend.  Pend is calculated by finding the total water Head at State 2, which creates the Pressure at the bottom of the pod chamber.  The total Head = 175.6364mm of water.  This equates to a Pressure of 1722.9935Pa.

Ein = 0.5 * (Pend) * V = 0.5 * 1722.9935Pa * 2.44102cm3 = 2.10293mJ.

This is also the difference in the Energy in State 2 and Energy in State 1 if you take those numbers from the sum of the Energies due to the water columns in each annulus that are tallied at the bottom of the previously attached spreadsheet.

Eout can be calculated by the same equation as Ein.  But a simpler reduction of the integral of F*ds for this case is Fave*S where S is the lift distance.

In order to find Fave it is necessary to find Fstart.  Fstart is calculated by finding the sum of the buoyant Forces on the pod and risers.  That process was explained several posts ago when on Sunday I began to work on the previous Analysis.  The results of the buoyant Forces for the current SUT at State 2 are:

pod lift             =  11.63548 grams of Force
inner riser lift   =  35.63549 grams of Force
middle riser lift =  45.34175 grams of Force
outer riser lift   =  55.07041 grams of Force
------------------------------------------------
Total Lift          = 147.67154 grams of Force

Eout = Ein = 2.10293mJ = 0.5 * 147.67154g * S.  Solving for S results in a predicted lift of 1.90938mm.  This is the lift shown in State 3.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #880 on: March 10, 2014, 05:32:57 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #881 on: March 10, 2014, 06:03:35 PM »
State 3 is drawn with the pod and riser lifted 1.90938mm.  The water in each annulus is distributed properly.  I will not go into all the detail on that, but the necessary values for volume changes within the annuli due to the lift, and the resultant water level changes in each are in the right hand column of values in the spreadsheet.  The results were also double checked by evaluating the volumes of the water and air in each location and comparing to those in State 1 and State 2.  This was done throughout the Analysis at each step since a mistake on any one cascades into the following.  So, while tedious, performing the volumetric double check at each step does save me some rework in the end I believe.

The Hypothesis Under Test is, again, that Energy in = Energy out = 2.10293mJ.  In State 3, the ZED has been allowed to rise so that 2.10293mJ of Energy has been released.  This is Energy that could have performed Work.

If Ein = Eout then the system must be at rest at State 3.  It must have a sum of buoyant Forces on the pod and risers that is zero.  Evaluating the buoyant Forces:

pod lift            =   8.16761 grams of Force
inner riser lift   = 19.74154 grams of Force
middle riser lift = 11.30235 grams of Force
outer riser lift   = -7.38391 grams of Force
------------------------------------------------
Total Lift          = 31.82759 grams of Force

Since the sum of the buoyant Forces at the State 3 predicted by Ein = Eout is not zero the ZED cannot remain in this position.  It must Stroke further.  So additional Energy must exist in the system.

This is how I originally concluded that this system is displaying over unity.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #882 on: March 10, 2014, 06:15:40 PM »
The Energy inside the ZED at each step was added to the spreadsheet as an additional triple check.  It also shows that Energy increases when transitioning from State 2 to State 3.

Energy at State 2 = 5.52257mJ
Energy Released (Work) from State 2 to State 3 = 2.10293mJ
Energy at State 3 = 3.74510mJ

The total Energy released and remaining in the system when transitioning from State 2 to State 3 is 2.10293mJ + 3.74510mJ = 5.84803mJ.  This is larger than the amount of Energy in the system at State 2 by .32546mJ.  This also shows the Energy increase from State 2 to State 3.

Offline LarryC

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #883 on: March 10, 2014, 10:13:35 PM »
Attached is a picture of a spreadsheet and the actual spreadsheet below.


It's shows that doing an Iterative driven Integration, calculating Pressure * Volume for each iteration gives the same results as our use of P average * Volume.


If we were doing an Integration using sensors on a physical system, we couldn't do it that way as each stop and start results in many losses, main ones being momentum and inertial in the Zed. Also, in a physical system, most changes are not linear.


In a small math model like this, it is correct, because it has no losses and the changes are linear. One rule is that you can't use it across multiple SI in one start stop.


I could add the Iterative Integration program to my Analysis of flow spreadsheets, but that would only cause more questions and require more computer time.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #884 on: March 11, 2014, 12:34:35 AM »



  It is quite a problem if the math shows OU. Working from First Principles
  gves us the answer when we start out. Someone said earlier in the
  discussion that "The math doesn't lie".
     I believe the basic principles to be bullet proof, if they weren't you
   couldn't depend on anything.
      To prove some sort of anomaly is going to require an exceptionally
    well done piece of work.
                           John

 

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