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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 476887 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #780 on: March 08, 2014, 04:56:05 PM »
@Webby
Please note that neither "production rams" nor "flow assists" labels appear anywhere on your diagram. Am I supposed to guess what parts are which? Please note that there is a battery shown on your diagram.... something that as I am sure you have noticed, is an absolute requirement for all "free energy" machines we have seen here lately. Please note that a hydraulic accumulator is typically precharged to a high pressure, that the device is a big heavy supposedly well-balanced see-saw, and that it could be running for quite a while on that stored precharge. Further, please note that we have been told, at various times, that there is no fluid transfer between the Zeds, or that there is, or whatever. So how do you account for the plumbing at the bottom? What are the bags doing, we don got no bags, we don have to show you no stinkin bags, in the spreadsheets....
Finally, for this post, please note that the Zed being analyzed on this thread is not the Holy and Eternal Zed that has a tummy-ache in the video of the diagrammed device.

Quote
If the production ram were to move 200cc of fluid per cycle and the flow assist rams were to use 100cc of fluid per cycle then the Reserve tank will need to provide the other 100cc per cycle resulting in the Reserve tanks held volume of fluid being moved into the high pressure accumulator resulting in the accumulators stored volume of fluid under pressure increasing and the Reserve tanks volume under low pressure decreasing.

Finally we are getting somewhere. OK... so after a while.... what happens? Where does the fluid all wind up, what happens to the pressure buildup?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #780 on: March 08, 2014, 04:56:05 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #781 on: March 08, 2014, 05:45:14 PM »
There is the plumbing needed to facilitate setup and draining.  This step requires both fluid and air pressure to be correctly installed into the ZED and both ZED's will also need to be drained of both fluid and air pressure to allow for a full accountability of all facets of the system.

The production rams are the gray vertical things on the top middle of the ZED.  The flow assist rams are just above and to the right of the battery.
And so I guessed correctly. So the "flow assist" rams don't really directly assist anything flowing, but they push and pull on something, helping the system to rock back and forth? 
Quote
The battery is needed to run the electric flow control valves and monitoring system in this drawing.
Yes... it is, because a pneumatic system, that might be operated on part of the "production", actually requires another power source like the little electric powered air compressor that can be seen in the photographs of the other, indoor unit.
Quote

The precharged accumulator,, that is the question of the day,, and the one, IMHO, Mark D. needed an extended time of run to confirm whether that charge went down during run or not.  If this system that looks so clunky were a very good teeter-totter it would take, or could take, a long run time to see any appreciable drop in that accumulator pressure.
I'm glad you realize this, now we are really on a roll.
Quote

If the accumulator is preset for its hold pressure then the volume of fluid not used by the assist rams, and or anything else that is connected, that is needed for the descent of the production ram will result in a decease in the Reserve tank volume and an increase in the stored accumulator volume,  When this happens the ZED's could be stopped until the Reserve tank is again filled back up and the accumulator is back down to its start volume by some other connected item.

That is right. Or you could just put your hydraulic motor turning a generator in a line leading out from the accumulator, back to the reserve tank, and get your electrical power to run the valves from that, no battery needed, and you'd never have to shut down. Right? Or is that too obvious?

Now here is another question:  as the accumulator is filled, does it require more and more work to pump fluid into it?

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #782 on: March 08, 2014, 05:56:31 PM »
Guys, sorry if I interject in the middle of your conversation, but I'd like to participate a bit if that is okay?

Further, please note that we have been told, at various times, that there is no fluid transfer between the Zeds, or that there is, or whatever. So how do you account for the plumbing at the bottom?

The "Manual gate" valve would be shut during operation.  I think that portion of the plumbing may be used to balance the two ZEDs when first assembling to the desired setup condition.

Off topic a bit right now:  In the video you hear Mr. Wayne comment about one side of the dual ZED system working better than the other.  TK, you have commented on the different times it takes for each side to "stroke" as well.  My theory:  This is a BUOYANCY device.  And the buoyant Force is the result of water HEAD applied to the OD of the pod and/or risers.  Slight variations in the construction of the pods and risers can lead to HUGE differences in their buoyant Forces.  So to have a "matched balanced" pair is nearly impossible.  And that is the reason Mr. Wayne separates the two ZEDs with the "bag transfer device."  Also, the setup conditions (how much water is in each annulus) and the tolerances of the ring walls inside each ZED will have HUGE effects on the buoyant Forces of each.  So again, best to separate them by not requiring a water volume transfer between them.  And with two un-matched ZEDs coupled together as shown in the diagram and video, one side will perform better than the other.


What are the bags doing, we don got no bags, we don have to show you no stinkin bags, in the spreadsheets....

Mr. Wayne has said he no LONGER uses the bag system.  He obviously did at the time of this drawing and the video.  I have no idea what he has developed over the last 2 years or so.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #782 on: March 08, 2014, 05:56:31 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #783 on: March 08, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »
Quote
There is the plumbing needed to facilitate setup and draining.  This step requires both fluid and air pressure to be correctly installed into the ZED and both ZED's will also need to be drained of both fluid and air pressure to allow for a full accountability of all facets of the system.

So the bags.... water flows into and out of the bags as the Zed moving parts, inside the white housing, move up and down. But this water isn't exchanged between the zeds because of the manual gate valve. Right? And it is supposed to be the water in these bags, changing weight, that rocks the teetertotter with the tall weights on it, back and forth?

Is the 'flow assist' ram driven by the rocking, so to be pumping hydraulic fluid, or is it driven by the hydraulic fluid, and so driving the rocking, or helping to drive it, mechanically?

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #784 on: March 08, 2014, 07:07:09 PM »
I hope I don't cross post with webby1!  Sorry if I do.  I'm about to climb under my car and change the oil so I'll be out of your way for a bit.

So the bags.... water flows into and out of the bags as the Zed moving parts, inside the white housing, move up and down. But this water isn't exchanged between the zeds because of the manual gate valve. Right? And it is supposed to be the water in these bags, changing weight, that rocks the teetertotter with the tall weights on it, back and forth?

Yep.

Is the 'flow assist' ram driven by the rocking, so to be pumping hydraulic fluid, or is it driven by the hydraulic fluid, and so driving the rocking, or helping to drive it, mechanically?

'Flow Assist' has been the term that Mr. Wayne has used to describe when the ram is activated to force additional water under pressure into either ZED.

To start, think of ZED1 at full stroke height and ZED 2 with its pod and risers sitting like in State 1.  First there is a "Free Flow" activity where the two ZEDs are both opened to the "bag transfer system."  So the pressure between the two ZEDs will equalize (for free thanks to gravity) while no Volume of water is transferred between them.  Once equalized, the pressure differential in the "bag transfer system" is zero, even though the pressure on each side is still as much as the HEAD in the two equalized ZEDs.

Now the "Flow Assist" must be enabled to take ZED 2 up to stroke Pressure.  So the "Flow Assist" ram is energized.  It starts out seeing a zero pressure difference in the "bag transfer device."  That ram must stroke to build the pressure in ZED 2 up to its stroke pressure.  Meanwhile, ZED 1 gently collapses, continuing to help balance the total gage pressure that ZED 2 must achieve.

I hope this helps.  Time to get under a 2 ton vehicle.  Supported by a standard hydraulic jack!

PS.  And webby1 posted first.  Oh well, I was proof reading when I heard that and am still posting in case it helps.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #784 on: March 08, 2014, 07:07:09 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #785 on: March 08, 2014, 07:23:43 PM »
OK, thank you both for making your descriptions explicit.

So we are agreed that the "flow assist" doesn't directly assist flow, but represents a hydraulic piston pushing/pulling on the rocking framework to assist or "work with" the rocking. And the flow that is being assisted is NOT the hydraulic fluid but rather the flow of water into and out of the bag of each Zed. SO the total volume of the water in each Zed is changing but is reset to the start value on every cycle. Right so far?

Now, since each of these steps can be demonstrated to be lossy, due to things like viscous fluid friction, the non-optimal geometry that produces bending and off-center loads, and so forth, just where in this system can extra energy be produced, without adding more volume or pressure from the outside of what is diagrammed?

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #786 on: March 08, 2014, 08:18:55 PM »
OK, thank you both for making your descriptions explicit.

So we are agreed that the "flow assist" doesn't directly assist flow, but represents a hydraulic piston pushing/pulling on the rocking framework to assist or "work with" the rocking. And the flow that is being assisted is NOT the hydraulic fluid but rather the flow of water into and out of the bag of each Zed. SO the total volume of the water in each Zed is changing but is reset to the start value on every cycle. Right so far?

My answer is yes.

Now, since each of these steps can be demonstrated to be lossy, due to things like viscous fluid friction, the non-optimal geometry that produces bending and off-center loads, and so forth, just where in this system can extra energy be produced, without adding more volume or pressure from the outside of what is diagrammed?

My guess is in the transformation of the ZED from State 2 to State 3 somehow.  It appears to be changing from an UU construction to one with OU potential AFAICS.

And this is one of my weird theories (that you can disregard at anytime).  Remember when you were teaching me that the "red box" needs to be defined by the air/water barrier in the outer annulus (which changes height from State to State)?  I have come to agree with you on that.  Because the Volume of that "red box" must obviously change to include the Volume of the added water when charging from State 1 to State 2.

Here is what I have been thinking about the change from State 2 to State 3.  The aspect ratio of the SUT changes.  IE the height to width ratio changes.  And my hypothesis now is that the increase in height, at the expense of width, explains the "supposed" increase in Energy.  This would be because an increase in height increases the Energy available in a column of water due to gravity.

What do you think?

M.

PS.  I am waiting on "MarkE" to respond to my recent posts to him.  But he may be busy. 

Do you think I should go ahead and Analyze his State 3 as I re-posted it, or wait until he is available again?

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #786 on: March 08, 2014, 08:18:55 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #787 on: March 08, 2014, 08:50:06 PM »
While my previous post was serious, this is not: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjKk5Kt3rs

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #788 on: March 08, 2014, 09:28:48 PM »
IMHO.

It is a 3 step full cycle, 2 short steps and 1 long step.

You have rest to lift ready, short
Then you have lift ready to end of lift, short
Then you have recovery, long

The lift force is reduced by the move from rest to lift ready, as TK likes to put it the Bollard. 

What you can not to with the Bollard is to use the spring that lifted the Bollard up to compress the spring under another one after it lifted the first one, nor can you drop the Bollard without compressing the spring and have the spring help the next lift of that Bollard.

With the Bollard the recovery is dropping the Bollard back down compressing its own spring, in the ZED there is one "spring force" that is shared between 2 ZEDS.  This "spring force" is a little weak to be able to lift the next ZED by itself, so it uses a little help to lift a larger load, just like the Bollard.  The Bollard spring is not strong enough to lift the Bollard by itself so it to uses a little help to lift the Bollard.

The "spring force" is added into the ZED system after setup is complete.  This addition of input to create the "spring force" is a one time add.

I am inclined to agree.  It is not the lift that is OU.  It is the return to the starting condition (due to gravity) that is supplied "for free" due to this process occurring within an acceleration field (ie. gravity).

Obviously gravity only pulls two masses closer together, right?  So gravity cannot be adding any Energy to a ZED system when it is stroking (two masses being pressed apart).  The energy has to come from outside the system.

.
.
.
Sorry, but I got distracted and need to leave this post for the time being.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #788 on: March 08, 2014, 09:28:48 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #789 on: March 08, 2014, 10:21:05 PM »
The last time I was in the UK the President of the company that I was dispatched to (they were not pleased by my employer's performance at all!) started a meeting by writing this on a "white board":

WTFAW

He said the meeting was a WTFAW meeting.  That was shortly later explained to me to mean: Where The F**K Are We?

That guy was a "righteous dude."  Had several pints with him that week.

And so (since I've been distracted), WTFAW?

M.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #790 on: March 08, 2014, 10:27:31 PM »



 I'll tell you where we are, we want water to flow uphill.
                                       John.

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #790 on: March 08, 2014, 10:27:31 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #791 on: March 08, 2014, 10:52:01 PM »
I'm sorry Minnie.  I would like to continue but MarkE must be working on something else at the moment.

I hope MarkE will rejoin our conversations soon.

M.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #792 on: March 08, 2014, 11:07:21 PM »
Wait, wait. We seem to be close to a full "timing cycle" description of how the contraption is alleged to work.

Start with the thing level, the accumulators charged and whatever water-air precharge the Zeds need. Call this the Start position. (not with one down and one up).

OK, now to get the thing started we are allowed one "Flow assist" from outside, as I understand it. This causes the bidirectional Flow Assist Ram FAR to push on the framework in the direction that forces down on one bag and start the Teeter-Totter rocking down on one side and up on the other. The side going down, say the left side, that bag pushes water into the left zed LZ and creates the LZL left zed lift that pushes UP on the Left Production Ram LPR forcing hydraulic fluid HF out and into the Accumulator. Meanwhile the side of the Teeter-Totter going up pulls water out of the RZ and into its bag, allowing the RZ internal parts to sink, pulling its Production Ram RPR in, drawing HF at low pressure from the Reservoir. Some of the high pressure fluid from the LPR stored in the Accumulator is diverted to drive the FAR the other way and rock the Teeter-Totter back, at the right time. As the FAR cycles, it too pumps fluid from the Accumulator, as fluid is pushed in on the powered side, fluid flows out from the unpowered side into the low pressure Reservoir.

Right so far? So the Teeter Totter has rocked all the way to one side, the LZ is fully up and the RZ is fully down and the first 1/4 cycle is complete.

Now what makes it go past this point, so that the LZ begins to rise and the RZ to sink? It must sink partway on its own because Travis has told us, I believe, that the Flow Assist to the sinking side is applied once partial sink has occurred.

There is one other thing that I'm worried about. In the "ideal" system that you have been analyzing quantitatively, the upward travel is rather... er.... minuscule. Yet the Zeds, the true and holy Zeds in the diagram, must be able to push those Production Ram pistons into and out of those looonng cylinders with considerable force all the way up that power stroke. A thousand times more distance than you are figuring, from the looks of it.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #793 on: March 08, 2014, 11:15:15 PM »
Anytime we can bring back "MarkE" we can move forward with the Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED, AFAICS.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #794 on: March 08, 2014, 11:22:04 PM »
MarkE, I have never solved for the correct final State 3 lift height.  I have solved for a State 3 calculated from an Energy balance (drawings are on page 2 IIRC) that still showed a positive total buoyant Force.  Due to the presence of this Force I concluded that the ZED could not stop in this state, must lift further, and therefore was breaking the law of COE in favor of OU.  It is very similar to how you initially solved for a State 3 based on a Vin = Vout relationship and also learned that it resulted in a condition where the ZED must also lift further due to the remaining sum positive buoyant Force.

I have openly stated on several occasions that I did not know how to calculate for the correct final State 3 lift height, and that I believed that would require iterations or calculus that I was not prepared to delve into.  But I will make a correction:  It does not require iterations or calculus.  That was a mistake on my part and came from my previous attempts (two years ago) to do this type of analysis without the assumption of the air being incompressible.  So yes, it can be done algebraically.  But I have not done that, nor do I intend to do it this weekend.  I would gladly start by accepting that you have done that, and done it correctly.  If so, you can publish the numbers for the water heights in each annulus, and the lift height, and I would be happy to work from there.  If not, I will show the results of my false State 3 calculations next week.  Or if you insist, I can work them up from the diagrams I posted on page 2.  But please be clear that my State 3 is not, and has never been said to be, a correct final State where the sum of the buoyant forces is zero.

In your OP you stated that you want people to check your "math, assumptions, logic, and conclusions."  Well, just show them.  Where is your math?  If for some odd reason the computer that you use to write internet messages lacks the capability of a calculator, don't solve the calculations you rely upon.  Just show them without the results.  It is absurd that you continue to insist upon a claim without showing how you supposedly get to it.

All, please check the math.  I would appreciate if you can point out any mistakes in the math, assumptions, logic, and conclusions.  Feel free to send your input by PM if you don’t want to post in the thread.  It would be nice to know if you check the analysis and agree as much as if you find mistakes.

I preformed this analysis using a CAD model, Excel, and an old Casio calculator.  So precision of the values was carried out to as many as 10 significant digits.  I limited the CAD dimensions to only 7 digits after the decimal so errors are introduced but should still give accurate results if rounded to 6 significant digits or there about.
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