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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 461235 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #690 on: March 07, 2014, 07:16:22 AM »
Just one more time for review.  Quoting Wayne:

I submit to all of you that the above quote is nonsensical gibberish.  I can't understand it not because I am dumb, but because it is nonsensical gibberish.

I challenge anybody that claims they understand what he is saying to restate what he is saying in terms of cycles and energy.  In my opinion, if no one takes up the challenge, that represents a tacit admission that you agree with my evaluation of Wayne's statements.  It's another smoking gun indicating that Wayne will never produce anything.  He is just a cash burner and it's other people's cash.

MileHigh

Well maybe if nobody takes up your challenge, it might mean that they dont really care about your challenge or your opinion.  :o Its possible. Im one of them. ;)

Its way to easy to win a challenge that makes you the winner, if the result is that nobody took the challenge and just say that is the admission of defeat, without taking into account that maybe nobody cares what you think.  Nothing tacit about it.  :P   Its just you labeling others by your selfish rules. ::)

lol, if nobody takes your challenge, then they are what you say they are?   ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) How convenient for you.  ::)

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #690 on: March 07, 2014, 07:16:22 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #691 on: March 07, 2014, 07:24:02 AM »
Well maybe if nobody takes up your challenge, it might mean that they dont really care about your challenge or your opinion.  :o Its possible. Im one of them. ;)

Its way to easy to win a challenge that makes you the winner, if the result is that nobody took the challenge and just say that is the admission of defeat, without taking into account that maybe nobody cares what you think.  Nothing tacit about it.  :P   Its just you labeling others by your selfish rules. ::)

lol, if nobody takes your challenge, then they are what you say they are?   ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) How convenient for you.  ::)

Mags
Then again you could attempt to put MileHigh in his place by showing how the great teachings are more than just so much pointless word salad.  You could point out nifty things like how they teach energy is calculated, what energy values result, and how those energy values might support HER/Zydro's claims.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #692 on: March 07, 2014, 07:26:24 AM »
Hey there Wayne, how's your technical cadre doing with the spring that ate Cincinnati?   Have your minions figured out any talking points that can make the "ideal ZED" at least seem like it does anything more than a 1000X smaller, ~$1 spring?

I read your posts. I see you say  "Could you 'kindly' "   "Will you 'kindly' "......   But you cant provide the same respect.  Amazing. ::)   As soon as Wayne arrives its time to be a dick.  All day it was fairly peaceful and constructive.  ::) ::)   Then Wayne shows up and its time for the beatings to begin. ::)

Just wanted the readers to know.  ;) In case they missed anything. ;D

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #692 on: March 07, 2014, 07:26:24 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #693 on: March 07, 2014, 07:55:17 AM »
Then again you could attempt to put MileHigh in his place by showing how the great teachings are more than just so much pointless word salad.  You could point out nifty things like how they teach energy is calculated, what energy values result, and how those energy values might support HER/Zydro's claims.

Like that would change anything for you guys other than more day after day negativity. It would not make any difference. So why should I take up any challenges that are not going to make a difference one way or the other when it comes to you guys? That wont end the 'abuse'.

Here is some word salad. Mh said once that a YT motor build was making the 'red' led light because the reed switch was connecting the 1.2v NIMH battery across the led.  Can you tell me what is wrong there???? Its pretty basic stuff. ;) I can provide the link.  ;)

And what was his excuse for that little blunder? "its been 30 years"  meanwhile, just recently he claimed to have 35 years of experience...  Lets see, its been 30 years, ok, so 35 years of experience before that, throw in say 18 years till graduation before college.... That would make him what, about 83 years old?? :o ::)

Got all the quotes and links. ;) With all the dressings. ;D

Mags


Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #694 on: March 07, 2014, 08:27:25 AM »
Like that would change anything for you guys other than more day after day negativity. It would not make any difference. So why should I take up any challenges that are not going to make a difference one way or the other when it comes to you guys? That wont end the 'abuse'.

Here is some word salad. Mh said once that a YT motor build was making the 'red' led light because the reed switch was connecting the 1.2v NIMH battery across the led.  Can you tell me what is wrong there???? Its pretty basic stuff. ;) I can provide the link.  ;)

And what was his excuse for that little blunder? "its been 30 years"  meanwhile, just recently he claimed to have 35 years of experience...  Lets see, its been 30 years, ok, so 35 years of experience before that, throw in say 18 years till graduation before college.... That would make him what, about 83 years old?? :o ::)

Got all the quotes and links. ;) With all the dressings. ;D

Mags
Who knows unless someone tries?  It might do better than to promote the world's most complicated spring as a free energy machine for years. 

Yes, please show the quote and context. 

If a reed switch connects and disconnects a coil (such as a motor winding ) and there is an LED across the switch contacts, and something to open and close the reed switch contacts quickly,  then that makes a crude voltage boost circuit.  A 1.2V cell would be enough to light a 2V red LED.  In principle, it's not so different from those electronically commutated boosters used in Chinese solar garden lights, and they need to jump up to ~3V for the white LEDs.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #694 on: March 07, 2014, 08:27:25 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #695 on: March 07, 2014, 08:34:18 AM »
I read your posts. I see you say  "Could you 'kindly' "   "Will you 'kindly' "......   But you cant provide the same respect.  Amazing. ::)   As soon as Wayne arrives its time to be a dick.  All day it was fairly peaceful and constructive.  ::) ::)   Then Wayne shows up and its time for the beatings to begin. ::)

Just wanted the readers to know.  ;) In case they missed anything. ;D

Mags
Is Mr. Pot complaining about Mr. Kettle?  It's Wayne who makes the claims to free energy that are absolutely false.  It is Wayne who attempts to suggest that there is something novel and useful to his Russian Dolls of Ignorance.  If he can show an advantage versus a ~$1. spring that occupies less than 1/1000th the volume of the "ideal ZED" I would love to hear about that.  Wouldn't you?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #696 on: March 07, 2014, 08:44:07 AM »
Who knows unless someone tries?  It might do better than to promote the world's most complicated spring as a free energy machine for years. 

Yes, please show the quote and context. 

If a reed switch connects and disconnects a coil (such as a motor winding ) and there is an LED across the switch contacts, and something to open and close the reed switch contacts quickly,  then that makes a crude voltage boost circuit.  A 1.2V cell would be enough to light a 2V red LED.  In principle, it's not so different from those electronically commutated boosters used in Chinese solar garden lights, and they need to jump up to ~3V for the white LEDs.

Ill dig up the post tomorrow. Im beat.  I guess you didnt understand what "the reed connects the battery across the red led" means. Otherwise, why need the excuse of "its been 30 years" to explaining why he didnt know/remember it takes 1.8-2.1v to get a typical 20-30ma 'red' led to conduct, and that 1.2NIMH pen light cell, or even step up to an alkaline at 1.5v isnt going to do it.  ;)   

You can defend it all you want. You are not going to be right in doing so, no matter how you wish to spin it. I have the proof of fact. Tell me. Do you think Im lying? ;) And you apparently cannot understand what "the reed connects the battery across the red led" to light it means. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

But if you wish to go on about it, you have the floor. ;D

Night

Mags


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #696 on: March 07, 2014, 08:44:07 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #697 on: March 07, 2014, 09:12:11 AM »



Hi Mags,
            my 9v electric fence gives you a fair tickle, 6000 v , 2.7 stored joules.
     Why not collaborate with Webby and solve this whole ZED thingy?
                     John.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #698 on: March 07, 2014, 09:15:12 AM »
Quote
it takes 1.8-2.1v to get a typical 20-30ma 'red' led to conduct, and that 1.2NIMH pen light cell, or even step up to an alkaline at 1.5v isnt going to do it.


Congratulations, Magsy! You have just proved that, eg, Joule Thiefs cannot possibly work.

Thanks, that settles that!

(I knew those 90 volt Neons lighting up in all those Bedini motors had to be faked.)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #698 on: March 07, 2014, 09:15:12 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #699 on: March 07, 2014, 09:19:04 AM »
Ill dig up the post tomorrow. Im beat.  I guess you didnt understand what "the reed connects the battery across the red led" means. Otherwise, why need the excuse of "its been 30 years" to explaining why he didnt know/remember it takes 1.8-2.1v to get a typical 20-30ma 'red' led to conduct, and that 1.2NIMH pen light cell, or even step up to an alkaline at 1.5v isnt going to do it.  ;)   

You can defend it all you want. You are not going to be right in doing so, no matter how you wish to spin it. I have the proof of fact. Tell me. Do you think Im lying? ;) And you apparently cannot understand what "the reed connects the battery across the red led" to light it means. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

But if you wish to go on about it, you have the floor. ;D

Night

Mags
If someone really said that they thought 1.2V would light a 2V Vfw LED then they were wrong.  Without seeing the statement and context, it is impossible to determine if they really said what you claim, or that you misinterpreted, or something else. 

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #700 on: March 07, 2014, 09:44:46 AM »
Those four blue LEDs are in _series_ and that is one AG-3/LR41 battery lighting them up.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #700 on: March 07, 2014, 09:44:46 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #701 on: March 07, 2014, 11:27:28 AM »



   What have we learned?


    1, You've got to be pretty smart to do a meaningful mathematical analysis
         of even the simplest of things.
     2, Even experts can drop the odd clanger.
     3, With a passive device, consider the answer should be predictable.
     4, Simplify things by removing anything superfluous.
     5, Beware of traps like Archimedes paradox
              John

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #702 on: March 07, 2014, 11:35:38 AM »
Magluvin does seem to claim that there is no boost.  But it is quite possible that Magluvin is mistaken.  It is possible that the circuit is a booster, and Magluvin did not recognize it. It is also possible that MileHigh made a mistake.  We will have to see what Magluvin comes up with for history.

Meanwhile back in Zydro-land Mondrasek came up with a fairly clever scheme to try and harvest as much of the energy as possible going from State 2 to State 3.  Let's apply that to the three riser "ideal ZED":

From the spreadsheet:
ST2UPTOTALUPF   1.195618   N   Total uplift force at the end of State 2
ST2_3KFORCE   -0.479825   N/mm   Total Rate of Force Change / mm
ST3_UPLIFT   2.491781   mm   Up Lift Distance

From these we can calculate the size of the water pan necessary:
Water_pan_area =-ST2_3KFORCE/(G0*pWater*(m_per_mm3)) = 49,107 mm2
Water_pan_diameter = 249.8mm
Water_pan_depth = ST3_UPLIFT = 2.49178mm

Energy imparted pushing water up over the spillway:
=0.5*-ST2_3KFORCE/m_per_mm*((ST3_UPLIFT*m_per_mm)2) = 1.490mJ  That's right a quarter meter diameter pan to deliver ~1.5mJ

The energy that will be required to return to State 2, is the same as the internal loss going from State 2 to State 3:  1.903mJ.
The idealized efficiency of the State 2 <=> State 3 cycle is therefore:  1.490mJ / 1.903mJ = 78.3%.  This is better than the single riser case.  But still way short of what we can do with an electric motor directly moving the payload.

Since the single riser and triple riser examples demonstrate different idealized efficiencies, is there some configuration of the idiotic ZED that can at least theoretically compete with a brick?  Or is there an upper limit on the idealized efficiency that can be realized that is well below the idealized 100% of a brick?

Looking at comments in the old thread there was talk by the HER/Zydro proponents of: "capturing" 15in3 hydraulic fluid at 640psi pressure 3.7 times a minute.  There was also some talk talk of 30in3.  If we take the larger number it means that there is 15W power being expended.  Given the tiny energies we see in the "ideal ZED" it is not surprising that the real ZEDs have very low power density, seeing how they slowly raise and lower weights.  And there is no sign of any surplus energy from those machines at all.




Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #703 on: March 07, 2014, 11:57:15 AM »


   What have we learned?


    1, You've got to be pretty smart to do a meaningful mathematical analysis
         of even the simplest of things.
     2, Even experts can drop the odd clanger.
     3, With a passive device, consider the answer should be predictable.
     4, Simplify things by removing anything superfluous.
     5, Beware of traps like Archimedes paradox
              John
I think that what it takes to do a good analysis is primarily patience and good book keeping skills.  Smart people make mistakes all the time.  Careful book keeping reduces the chances that the mistakes will get through or stay out in the wild for very long.

This particular contraption screws with intuition because it employs several mechanisms such as buoyancy  that are easily misinterpreted.  Pile on little complexities like the effects of: the annular rings each having unique areas, pressure effects of nesting, combining buoyancy with hydraulics, and the necessity to do things like integral calculus to get some of the values, and there are lots of opportunities for mistakes.  What I find interesting is that looking through the old hydro differential thread I can see that Kan Shi laid things out almost two years ago.  It's just amazing to me that people were still struggling to perform a decent numerical analysis so long after Kan Shi really showed what needed to be done.  Her posts really helped me double check my work, and fix my miscalculation of the ending lift height.

I also don't think it helps when the promoters of an idea go out of their way to misrepresent standard physics as we have seen in the five videos and countless posts that talk about comparisons of quantities that are not conserved in the context of a free energy claim:  force, power, volume, etc have all been tossed around, when if they were serious, HER/Zydro should have been talking about energy:  How they measure what goes in, how they measure what goes out, and how third parties can verify their claimed measurements.  In the old thread I see that MileHigh repeated asked for those simple and fair parameters.  I did not find anywhere that the parameters were supplied.  I saw a lot of the dodging and distraction that has gone on in this thread.

So, here we are with the "ideal ZED" emulating a ~$1. spring, except that to do so it needs over 1000 times the volume, and substantial complexity.  And despite the fact that the spring emulating "ideal ZED" is a passive thing, and passive things don't produce energy, the HER/Zydro promoters continue to pretend that they have some miracle hiding behind some curtain.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #704 on: March 07, 2014, 01:55:03 PM »



   Thanks for mentioning KanShi, very interesting,
                            John.

 

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