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Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 403894 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2280 on: April 19, 2014, 03:37:28 AM »
Indeed,, TK.

We all know what we know, we all know it to be true, that is until we learn otherwise.

I like to question everything and I try to see all sides,, even when I am pushing against a view, I quietly try to make sure I see what it is.

I was watching a quick little snip-it on metal whiskers,, I never thought that metal would grow whiskers and cause so much trouble,, I learned something new.
An argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy.  The fact that human knowledge is very limited does not invalidate that which we have learned from strong evidence.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2280 on: April 19, 2014, 03:37:28 AM »

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2281 on: April 19, 2014, 08:57:54 AM »



   The man who never made a mistake never made anything!
   Experience is something you get when you're looking for
   something else!
   A sensible man knows if it looks too good to be true it
   usually isn't true!
                 John.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2282 on: April 19, 2014, 09:44:55 AM »



    Hi Mark,
              I haven't seen the answer to your quiz on reply 2619.
   I was able to do the previous buoyancy quiz, but it was multiple
   choice which helped.
       Would love to know the answers for this one.
              Thank you, John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2282 on: April 19, 2014, 09:44:55 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2283 on: April 19, 2014, 09:57:27 AM »



   I thought I'd stumbled on a bit of OU. the other day. I was checking the output of
  some solar PV with my old meter and got unexpected results. The only thing I can
  see to explain it is that the LCD. screen is acting as a solar cell when it's in bright
  sunlight, if I shade the screen it goes back to normal.
                  John.

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2284 on: April 19, 2014, 05:11:18 PM »



 Webby,
         are you still insinuating that a ZED can work?
      Some things are well understood, you'd have to agree on that.
      You wouldn't put water in the fuel tank of your car and I doubt
      that even Wayne Travis could convince you to do that!
          I have great respect for the scientists of the past, they
      didn't have the facilities we have today.
          If you want to get somewhere with an idea you've got to
      heed basic facts.
                         John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2284 on: April 19, 2014, 05:11:18 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2285 on: April 19, 2014, 05:45:22 PM »
Minnie here is the quiz and the answers.
Quote
Here is a quick pop quiz:  Suppose Wayne wants to lift a 1kg payload weight 10cm.  Let's help Wayne find the most efficient means to do that.  Assume all the gear is frictionless, and structure mass is zero.

a. How about a block and tackle.  It will take just a smidge more than 0.98J to lift the weight 100cm.
b. How about a hydraulic ram?  How much will it take?
c. How about a buoyancy device?  How much will it take?
c.1. How about a ZED like buoyancy device?  How much energy will it take?

a. The winch does not store any internal energy in anything other than the weight.  EIN = Payload GPE gained.

b. The ram requires a column of pressurized fluid.  The amount of fluid can be small if the pressure is high.  Some GPE is stored in that fluid column.  The total energy is: Payload GPE gained + hydraulic fluid column GPE gain.

c. An optimal buoyancy device would use Archmedes' Paradox such  that virtually no GPE is required to initially float the payload.  That can be arranged by placing the buoy in a container just slightly larger than the buoy.  The buoy volume is selected to just displace the payload weight in the surrounding fluid.  The buoy length is chosen to be equal or greater than the intended lift distance.  The container must be taller than the length of the buoy plus the intended lift distance.  For an arbitrarily tall buoy and container column, the total energy is:  Payload GPE gained * ~(1 + 5cm/(legnthbuoy)

d. A ZED:  ZED's are just serpentine versions of buoyancy devices.  If a ZED is made very very tall compared to the intended lift distance (much more so than a single column buoyancy device) then like the single column device, the additional GPE that must be stored in the machine may be made small compared payload GPE gained.  This assumes that the risers can be made of zero mass material, which of course is not true.

The bottom line is that the serpentine buoyancy approach is: The most complicated way to achieve the end, and does not offer any energy efficiency advantage over simpler means.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2286 on: April 19, 2014, 05:52:29 PM »
A fool believes what he has been told without question, and we have been told what to look for and how it shows us what is being told.
Wayne Travis has never offered verifiable evidence that supports his stories. It is because none exists. He is a fraud.
Quote

Circular logic, a House of Cards,, and other such methods is what covers a very large portion of what we know.
This sounds a lot like you are descending again into an argument from ignorance, which is a logical fallacy.
Quote

Just because something CAN be one way,, does that mean that it MUST be that way?
That is an argument from ignorance.
Quote

Jumping to a conclusion because it does not agree with what is known is ignorance.
That is logically incorrect.  If something is "known" then the belief is based on evidence.  Otherwise, it is just a belief.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2286 on: April 19, 2014, 05:52:29 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2287 on: April 19, 2014, 06:55:34 PM »


   Webby,
           where everything is known and well researched you're not going to find
   anomalous behaviour.
        When water freezes that's sort of anomalous because it expands. Perhaps
    we could have a "Freezeazed" and see how that works!
                      John.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2288 on: April 19, 2014, 06:58:04 PM »
Heck, even in Southern Oklahoma it freezes in the winter. An Indoor Zed in its own heated shed will probably stay liquid, but you'll have to put lots of antifreeze in your Outdoor Zed to keep it from busting its pipes in when the cold wind blows across that old Oklahoma prairie.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2288 on: April 19, 2014, 06:58:04 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2289 on: April 19, 2014, 07:05:59 PM »
In my imagination Wayne Travis and James Kwok are drowning in their sorrows in some dusty old bar in a dirty and lonely dead-end town.

Its quarter to three,
There's no one in the place cept you and me
So set em up joe
I got a little story I think you oughtta know

Were drinking my friend
To the end of a brief episode
So make it one for my baby
And one more for the road

I know the routine
Put another nickel in that there machine
Im feeling so bad
Wont you make the music easy and sad

I could tell you a lot
But you gotta to be true to your code
So make it one for my baby
And one more for the road

- Fade to Black -

Offline minnie

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2290 on: April 19, 2014, 09:45:39 PM »



You're right Webby,
    no need to worry about those transients bothering us, they just
annihilate each other!
     Try another one,do.
                      John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2290 on: April 19, 2014, 09:45:39 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2291 on: April 19, 2014, 11:16:04 PM »
Look at your work,, you define things in an ever increasing level of complexity and that is supposed to increase the level of certainty.

What that is doing is defining the environmental conditions down to specifics,, the environment can change in unexpected ways, or it can change in a controlled and predicted fashion.

You are using a circular argument, it CAN hold to be true OR it might NOT hold to be true,, just because it might hold in many cases still does not mean it holds in all cases.
That which has been shown to be true by repeated strong evidence is held to be true until strong contradictory evidence appears.  In the case of Wayne's fraud versus 2000 year old science, Wayne has come up with zilch on the evidence side, much less strong evidence.  Not a single proponent of Wayne's claims to being able to circumvent the "once believed" conservative nature of gravity.  Not a single propoentn of Wayne's fraud can show  a single femtoJoule of excess energy.
Quote

I choose to not throw out an anomaly, nor do I throw out what we know because of an anomaly.  I choose to use both and try and find what is causing what.  It is kind of simple really.
Wayne and his crew have never demonstrated any anomaly.  They have consistently misrepresented 2000 year old science as something new.    They have consistently made false claims.  If you haven't figured it out yet:  Wayne is perpetrating an investment fraud.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2292 on: April 20, 2014, 12:58:27 AM »
That is your opinion, and you are more than free to have it.

We are all entitled to our opinions, right, wrong or indifferent.
The issues of Wayne and friends misrepresentations of 2000 year old science are proven by the historical record of the science and the silly statements asserted by Wayne and company of:  the non-existent "Travis Effect", "Energy Refernce Mapping Technology", "Super Conservative" systems and so on.  No one promoting these nonsense, invented terms can either describe what they supposedly mean, nor show any of them to be actual real behaviors that are distinct from already well-established behaviors.

As to the fraud:  Wayne has made his free energy machine investment fraud self-evident. If you prefer to bury your head in the sand and ignore the overwhelming evidence of established science versus the zero evidence that Wayne has produced for his claims, then you are free to choose to be willfully ignorant.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2293 on: April 20, 2014, 05:15:26 AM »
If it is overlooked by science then what?

Are new discoveries not valid because no person has observed them before,, really?
There is no evidence of any "it".
Quote

Do NOT forget I built and tested and played with TBZED,, have you had your hands on a real device?  I did not think so.
Neither have you produced any evidence of any "it".  By your own assessment you did not find:  any non-conservative behavior in either gravity or energy.
Quote

You are again stating your opinion like it is some kind of fact, which it is not it is only your opinion.
I state what there is strong evidence to support.  You keep committing the logical fallacy of argument from ignorance.
Quote

Empirical trumps theoretical every time Mark,, not just sometimes,, every time,, that is what makes science evolve over time.
Neither you nor anyone supporting Wayne's fraud have offered any empirical evidence that supports his claims.  The very limited empirical evidence that you have offered refutes Wayne's claims.  So does the demonstrated failure of his machines to perform as he claims.
Quote

You may not have what YOU need for proof,, but that is you and your level of requirements,, I believe that even if you had a running system in front of you thar you would not except the proof.
Since you have no evidence, much less proof on which to base your claim, that is pure speculation by you.

Offline orbut 3000

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Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #2294 on: April 20, 2014, 05:51:29 AM »
That's the problem with science. It only applies to 'known' and 'observable' phenomena.
So as long as wayne doesn't demonstrate his alleged gravity cheating plumbing scheme, it's checkmate, bro. 
/s
 ::)

 

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