Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Google Search

Custom Search

Author Topic: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED  (Read 645323 times)

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1005 on: March 14, 2014, 11:35:00 AM »


    I can imagine the scene in the Travis household. Sandy says "Wayne you're getting
   yourself into deep water with this stupid forum-you're  banned"!
        Which is pretty much the same as what goes on at my house, the women  keep
    things in order.
         I've been struggling with my sewage disposal machine. I have a fairly big family
    so it's a big 'un. 50 arse power. I put on a new motor three years ago and used a
    thermal overload that was too big so the motor ended up as toast. What amazed
     me was the unloaded current-it was very little less than what the trip had to be set
    for. Heaven knows how these mo-gen things are supposed to work
                     John.
AC induction motors look almost like dead shorts when they start up.  An electronic drive helps a lot.  This is a huge money saver for people with swimming pool and other kinds of water pumps that see frequent use.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1006 on: March 14, 2014, 01:48:34 PM »
You need to cange B32 B33 B34 to use   =AR2+2*HorGAp  =AR4+2*HorGap =AR6+2*HorGAp and they all change and when I go back to 20 it gives me the same numbers as the first spreadsheet.

Why?,, Why not??
Why not?  Because the formulas for the OD's are all correct.  Each successive ring OD builds as the disk it surrounds plus twice the width of the respective ring.  The geometry is in the graphics.  HorGap sets the annular ring width, RiserWallThickness the riser walls, and RingWallThickNess the ring walls.

AR1 =PodOD+2*HorGap
RW1 =AR1OD+2*RingWallThickness
AR2 =AR1OD+2*(RingWallThickness+HorGap) //arithmetically the same as RW1 + 2*HorGap
R1 =AR2OD+2*RiserWallThickness
AR3 =Riser1OD+2*HorGap
RW2 =AR3OD+2*RingWallThickness
AR4 =AR3OD+2*(RingWallThickness+HorGap) //arithmetically the same as RW2 + 2*HorGap
R2 =AR4OD+2*RiserWallThickness
AR5 =Riser2OD+2*HorGap
RW3 =AR5OD+2*RingWallThickness
AR6 =AR5OD+2*(RingWallThickness+HorGap) //arithmetically the same as RW3 + 2*HorGap
R3 =AR6OD+2*RiserWallThickness
AR7 =Riser3OD+2*HorGap


If for example you change the HorGap from 1mm to 2mm then:
AR1 => 24mm
RingWall1 => 26mm
AR2 => 30mm
Riser1OD => 32mm
AR3 => 36mm
RingWall2 => 38mm
AR4 => 42mm
Riser2 => 44mm
AR5 => 48mm
RingWall3 => 50mm
AR6 => 54mm
Riser3 => 56mm
AR7 => 60mm

Just as they should.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1007 on: March 14, 2014, 02:12:54 PM »
I am looking at the new and improved layout,, the split window does make it easier to see the changes and what they do,, very impressive.

My changes to your r3 did about the same thing for getting the diameters,, now there is even more information to look at with this new revision :)
The window split was not intentionally published.  That's just a left over from my own auditing process.  You can turn it on and off from the Window menu.  If you are working with something that you modified, then you are kind of on your own with respect to those modifications.  The latest version of the spreadsheet addresses comments that you made as to the readability of the formulas in the R3 version that preceded it, over and above fixing the way that I handled the riser walls.  The riser walls sit on a different head than the riser IDs and so the pressures and resulting forces are tracked for the riser walls separately from the IDs.  If you change the riser wall widths in R3 you can get calculated non-zero force in State 3, which of course means there is a problem.  In R4  you can make any of the widths a very small value, such as 1E-20mm and the force at the end of State 3 and State 1X both come out zero as they should.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1008 on: March 14, 2014, 02:33:57 PM »
I was noticing some irregularities with revision 3,, which is why I was hoping you would post the correct fix, I did not think it would be as extensive as all that but it is more accurate now,,   and that is a good thing.

I did have an issue when I changed the VerGAp to 0  so I ended up leaving it at 1.  On revision3.
R3 did not handle the riser walls correctly.  There is also one cell formula that had a ring wall in it where a riser wall belonged.  As long as you don't do something that would break the assumptions, such as over or underflowing one of the annular rings, then R4 should yield valid results for any parameter change.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1009 on: March 14, 2014, 03:07:29 PM »
With the split view I can see the heights and make sure that nothing "blows" a skirt :)

right now I am horsing around with it and have a B228 of 102.58 and a B227 of 52.2

Just by changing the numbers,, this is interesting to watch what changes change what.
Yes, it is pretty easy to burn up a lot a energy getting the machine set-up that you will never recover.  After that, so long as we ignore friction, it acts like a compression spring.

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13968
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1010 on: March 14, 2014, 06:26:35 PM »
Now we are really getting somewhere! A machine that destroys energy, dissipating fifteen times as much power as you put into it! That would really come in handy for certain applications.

(Check very carefully to make sure you are not dividing by zero somewhere, or rounding to zero in a figure that goes into a calculation involving it as a denominator. Usually the spreadsheet will not permit you to divide by zero, but can you trust it always to do so?)

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1011 on: March 14, 2014, 06:33:36 PM »
MarkE,

I have a setup that is over 1500% loss.
B86-B94??
B142-B148??
B150-B151??
What about them?

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1012 on: March 14, 2014, 06:38:25 PM »
Now we are really getting somewhere! A machine that destroys energy, dissipating fifteen times as much power as you put into it! That would really come in handy for certain applications.

(Check very carefully to make sure you are not dividing by zero somewhere, or rounding to zero in a figure that goes into a calculation involving it as a denominator. Usually the spreadsheet will not permit you to divide by zero, but can you trust it always to do so?)
No, there is no energy destroyed.  The spreadsheet performs a number of comparisons that I think are informative.  For example it compares the percentage energy loss going from State 2 to State 3 versus the energy added in State 2.  That number can easily exceed 100% because of the energy that was stored by the time we got to State 1.  I would be concerned if someone can enter coefficients that result in negative energy at any one of the states. 

Webby is playing with the spreadsheet which is fine.  We'll see if he turns up any new problems that are real or not.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1013 on: March 14, 2014, 07:16:56 PM »
I am getting what I think are non-real numbers, and wanted to make sure that what I am seeing in the spreadsheet is correct,, 264% loss?? with a 42% loss of total stored.

This does not seem real,, and so I was asking to make sure they are.
There are multiple cells that calculate different relative efficiencies.  Each is labelled with what I hoped would be self-evident descriptions.  Do you get any negative absolute energy values in any state?  If you think you have something that is screwed up then just post the spreadsheet with those values in it, preferably with the cells highlighted say using yellow fill or something like that.

Offline minnie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1014 on: March 14, 2014, 07:23:14 PM »



    Webby,
                 think about this, when the "air" in your ZED is substituted with massless, incompressioble
    "air" it becomes solid, i.e. it will behave as if is full of hydraulic fluid.
         It will behave in a completely different manner than with springy air inside.
      Whatever you do with numbers you can't escape the fact that all the crap inside the ZED
     will only hinder the operation of a hydraulic ram.
        That's my way of thinking for what it's worth.
                                     John.
   

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1015 on: March 14, 2014, 09:17:06 PM »
It is new stuff,, and me,, well that takes some time :)

I like the new layout and all the verbiage, including the output part, is all very helpful.

When I took things way over the top and was getting a .9mm lift with a 504% loss compared to the input it seemed to me that something was not right,, that extra must be coming from the state 0 to state 1,, but then if I removed the pod chamber fluid all that would go back to state 1, so that seems wrong,,

At more normal values I get the expected stuff,, so I guess I am just wrong in thinking there is an issue.
The spreadsheet is not designed to handle overflow or underflow in any of the annular rings.  If you managed to set-up such a case, then it's a pretty safe bet that it will generate non-physical results. 

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1016 on: March 15, 2014, 12:36:31 AM »
ST2_AR heights will tell me if they have blown,, kind of handy that :)

Then you can use the prefill height and the fill height to adjust as needed.

It is kind of fun to get a 99.7% usage of the added force and get a very close match to the output.

Plus I look at the audit section as well,, can not have any volume or force errors.
Don't you mean 99.7% of the added energy?

Offline minnie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1244
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1017 on: March 15, 2014, 12:57:29 AM »



  Webby,
           Good work!
                           John.

Offline MarkE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6830
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1018 on: March 15, 2014, 02:12:20 AM »
YES!,, my bad for not putting that there,, and the output was close to the same energy value,, so almost in for out :)
And that is the best that you can ever do:  Recover almost but never quite as much energy out as you put in cycling from one state to some other state and back to the original state.  The system is fundamentally lossy and it is the "ideal ZED".  Any real device with compressible air and real friction will exhibit more loss.

Stacking multiple lossy things in series just ends up with more loss. 

There is no "Travis Effect".
There is no alteration of the conservative nature of gravity.
There is no switching buoyancy on and off.
There is no "endless supply of abundant energy".

There is only investor money flushed down a pipe dream.

Offline orbut 3000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Mathematical Analysis of an Ideal ZED
« Reply #1019 on: March 15, 2014, 02:40:56 AM »
There is only investor money flushed down a pipe dream.


That's the Travis Effect: Investor money traveling magically into his pockets without the usually necessary work done.