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Author Topic: Builds  (Read 17034 times)

Offline Grimer

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Re: Builds
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 03:33:24 PM »
You'll never convince Mark that gravities not conservative, lindgaard1, so you'll do best to simply ignore him.  8)

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Re: Builds
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 03:33:24 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Builds
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2014, 03:48:34 PM »
You'll never convince Mark that gravities not conservative, lindgaard1, so you'll do best to simply ignore him.  8)
Grimer, extraordinary claims require compelling evidence.  If you, or Jim, or anyone else have compelling evidence that shows that gravity is not conservative, then by all means please show that evidence.

Offline Grimer

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Re: Builds
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 03:58:06 PM »
Grimer, extraordinary claims require compelling evidence.  If you, or Jim, or anyone else have compelling evidence that shows that gravity is not conservative, then by all means please show that evidence.
If RAR works, as I believe it will, then you'll have the evidence soon enough.


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Re: Builds
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 03:58:06 PM »
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Offline j_lindgaard1

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Re: Builds
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2014, 04:18:01 PM »
You'll never convince Mark that gravities not conservative, lindgaard1, so you'll do best to simply ignore him.  8)

  Thanks Grimer   :)
 

Offline j_lindgaard1

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Re: Builds
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2014, 04:35:49 PM »
Jim, I'm sorry if I did not make myself clear.

No gravity / overbalanced wheel can possibly work because:

1) Gravity is a conservative field.  If a mass travels over an arbitrary path from a starting point back to that same point no gravitational energy is gained or lost.
2) All gravity wheels operate cyclically.  Over the course of a complete cycle, each and every element of the machine follows some path that ends up back where it started at the end of the cycle.
3) All real machines have real energy losses, such as friction.

1) Removes the need to perform detailed analysis of the path that any element of a proposed over balanced wheel might follow.  Levers, cogs, balls, fluids, magnets can move in arbitrarily complex ways, but as long as any element eventually ends up back where it started, there is no gravitational energy that can be extracted by that element's travels. 
2) Establishes that all elements of a gravity / overbalanced wheel eventually end up back where they started at the end of a cycle.  The machine might be designed so that a cycle is one, a few, or many rotations of the wheel proper, but eventually anything and everything ends up back at the identical starting point.

1) + 2) taken together mean that there is no energy that can be extracted from a gravity / overbalanced wheel cycle to cycle independent of the configuration or complexity of the design.

1) + 2) + 3) taken together mean that no gravity / overbalanced wheel machine can self-sustain.

I see that you contend that "gravity is no more conservative than any other form of energy".  Your statement is an extraordinary claim against First Principles.  It is up to you to show an example where the First Law of Thermodynamics can be shown to be false.  If you can achieve such an amazing feat you will change physics as we currently know it forever.

  Mark,
 >>   It is up to you to show an example where the First Law of Thermodynamics can be shown to be false.  If you can achieve such an amazing feat  <<

 Again, you missed the obvious. It states isolated system. Most systems, an example is about any mechanical system can be opened when ever the engineer who designs it wishes it to be so. By adding a heat exchanger, they just opened the system while controlling it's exposure.
 Nuclear power plants have cooling towers which control heat build up from the fission process. By doing so, they control the entropy suffered from such a process by controlling it by opening it to an opposing potential, cold water. This prevents a meltdown like what happened at Chernobyl in the Ukraine when the fission process generated to much heat. I think they put the rods back in too quickly which caused the meltdown. They did not know at that time that the hot rods turned their energy inward when they were no longer exposed. They learned something new that has changed how such incidents are contained. If they would have slowly reinserted the rods, then their fission process would have slowly abated allowing the rods to cool.
 This kind of goes to a new principle in physics that I have realized, it's one that allows for photosynthesis to work. No scientist has yet realized the behavior that allows CO2 + H2O > CH2O + O2. They just don't know how to do that unless it is on paper.
 I plan on getting an Organic Chemist to demonstrate a process that can make that happen. And if it works the way I believe it does, then Global Warming could be either slowed or stopped.
 Of course, for that to happen would mean that engineers and scientists would need to work together to design an industrial process that mimics nature. Then and possibly only then CO2 emissions from coal fired power plants can be reduced to safe for the environment levels.
 And would you like to know the kicker ? I'd have to keep my present job if I want to eat. Realizing a new principle does not put money in someone's pocket.


edited to correct grammar somewhat

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Re: Builds
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2014, 04:35:49 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Builds
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2014, 04:43:28 PM »
  Mark,
 >>   It is up to you to show an example where the First Law of Thermodynamics can be shown to be false.  If you can achieve such an amazing feat  <<

 Again, you missed the obvious. It states isolated system. Most systems, an example is about any mechanical system can be opened when ever the engineer who designs it wishes it to be so. By adding a heat exchanger, they just opened the system while controlling it's exposure.
 Nuclear power plants have cooling towers which control heat build up from the fission process. By doing so, they control the entropy suffered from such a process by controlling it by opening it to an opposing potential, cold water. This prevents a meltdown like what happened at Chernobyl in the Ukraine when the fission process generated to much heat. I think they put the rods back in too quickly which caused the meltdown. They did not know at that time that the hot rods turned their energy inward when they were no longer exposed. They learned something new that has changed how such incidents are contained. If they would have slowly reinserted the rods, then their fission process would have slowly abated allowing the rods to cool.
 This kind of goes to a new principle in physics that I have realized, it's one that allows for photosynthesis to work. No scientist has yet realized the behavior that allows CO2 + H2O > CH2O + O2. They just don't know how to do that unless it is on paper.
 I plan on getting an Organic Chemist to demonstrate a process that can make that happen. And if it works the way I believe it does, then Global Warming could be either slowed or stopped.
 Of course, for that to happen would mean that engineers and scientists would need to work together to design an industrial process that mimics nature. Then and possibly only then CO2 emissions from coal fired power plants can be reduced to safe for the environment levels.
 And would you like to know the kicker ? I'd have to keep my present job if I want to eat. Realizing a new principle does not put money in someone's pocket.


edited to correct grammar somewhat
Jim you objected that I did not spell out in sufficient detail why it is that a gravity / over balanced wheel can work.  I've now done that for you in terms of conventional science.  That leaves us down to your contention that energy/matter is not conserved.  CoE is a First Principle.  You've got an incredible mountain to climb in order to overcome CoE.

Your argument seems to be that all one needs to do is "open the system".  Sure, provide the needed energy and you can spin a wheel.  Gravity won't be supplying that energy.

Offline j_lindgaard1

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Re: Builds
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 06:22:50 PM »
Grimer, extraordinary claims require compelling evidence.  If you, or Jim, or anyone else have compelling evidence that shows that gravity is not conservative, then by all means please show that evidence.

  Mark,
 >>  extraordinary claims require compelling evidence  <<

 It seems like you need to be in control. Nobody needs to prove anything to you.
A forum is for discussing ideas. Closed minded people are really in the wrong place.
 After all, seeing a perpetual wheel work would not let you understand why, you would only know that it does.
You know, like Thermodynamics. What constitutes an isolated system ? That would depend on your frame of reference.
 Take you for instance, you are an isolated system. You can not consider a perspective different than your own.
It's people like you who make things difficult for everybody else, you really contribute nothing.

   Jim

edited to add a pic of where I'm at. I'll be starting the build over because this is a learning process. As a result, it requires more
than having an access to a computer terminal and demonstrating I forgot to stay awake in school.
 What this will do is let me see it in action. Using vacuum to pump water from wells has been done for over a century so what I'll be demonstrating is an old way of doing things. Of course, with Bessler, he might've been first with the vacuum pump, not sure of the origin of when first use was known.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Builds
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 06:22:50 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Builds
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2014, 07:29:29 PM »
  Mark,
 >>  extraordinary claims require compelling evidence  <<

 It seems like you need to be in control. Nobody needs to prove anything to you.
A forum is for discussing ideas. Closed minded people are really in the wrong place.
 After all, seeing a perpetual wheel work would not let you understand why, you would only know that it does.
You know, like Thermodynamics. What constitutes an isolated system ? That would depend on your frame of reference.
 Take you for instance, you are an isolated system. You can not consider a perspective different than your own.
It's people like you who make things difficult for everybody else, you really contribute nothing.

   Jim

edited to add a pic of where I'm at. I'll be starting the build over because this is a learning process. As a result, it requires more
than having an access to a computer terminal and demonstrating I forgot to stay awake in school.
 What this will do is let me see it in action. Using vacuum to pump water from wells has been done for over a century so what I'll be demonstrating is an old way of doing things. Of course, with Bessler, he might've been first with the vacuum pump, not sure of the origin of when first use was known.

Jim, ideas are all fine and well.  In fact ideas are great.  Determining what ideas can be realized and which are flights of fancy is a matter of evidence.  The more extraordinary the claim the more compelling the required evidence must be in order to convince any rational person.

Perpetual wheels don't work and never have.  That is the observed fact.  If someone wishes to believe that they are possible, they are free to travel down that road.  If they expect rational people to follow, then they need commensurate evidence of their idea. 

It's not a personal thing.  It's not a control thing.  It's just nature.

Good luck with your work.  Suction pump methods go back at least to the ancient Egyptians.

Offline Grimer

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Re: Builds
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 08:43:48 PM »
  Mark,
 >>  extraordinary claims require compelling evidence  <<

 It seems like you need to be in control. Nobody needs to prove anything to you.
A forum is for discussing ideas. Closed minded people are really in the wrong place.
 After all, seeing a perpetual wheel work would not let you understand why, you would only know that it does.
You know, like Thermodynamics. What constitutes an isolated system ? That would depend on your frame of reference.
 Take you for instance, you are an isolated system. You can not consider a perspective different than your own.
It's people like you who make things difficult for everybody else, you really contribute nothing.

   Jim


I couldn't have put it better myself, Jim.


To be absolutely honest, I couldn't have put it as well.  ;D


The reason the Keenie and Bob's uncle's devices worked (and doubtless Bessler's too) is that they offloaded half the 3rd derivative energy to outside the system, i.e. the earth, like the sling-shot or gravity assist.  This leaves the other half available for doing useful work.


In the RAR you can see the offload device in the outboards weights which are laid on the floor during part of the cycle. Keenie achieves the same effect with a ratchet and pinion on a leyshaft.




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Builds
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 08:43:48 PM »
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Offline j_lindgaard1

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Re: Builds
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 08:51:04 PM »
Jim, ideas are all fine and well.  In fact ideas are great.  Determining what ideas can be realized and which are flights of fancy is a matter of evidence.  The more extraordinary the claim the more compelling the required evidence must be in order to convince any rational person.

Perpetual wheels don't work and never have.  That is the observed fact.  If someone wishes to believe that they are possible, they are free to travel down that road.  If they expect rational people to follow, then they need commensurate evidence of their idea. 

It's not a personal thing.  It's not a control thing.  It's just nature.

Good luck with your work.  Suction pump methods go back at least to the ancient Egyptians.

   Mark,
 Considering that you openly ignore what has been engineered, it is a control thing. Why ? It has to be proven to you on your terms.
 With something like CO2 + H2O > CH2O + O2 happens in nature. The science you keep referring to can not explain photosynthesis. Why ?
 What you fail to understand is that physics is according to the natural order of things. Engineering is not physics even though physics sometimes is used to explain engineering.
 As to your  >> The more extraordinary the claim the more compelling the required evidence must be in order to convince any rational person. <<

 The uneducated accept what they do not understand. Consider mag lev trains. They float on air. They are accepted by people who do not understand electromagnetic theory. A rational person will accept something without extraordinary proof, it happens all of the time.
 A rational person knows they don't need everything proven to them. Also, there are physicists who believe perpetual motion may be possible. The link is to a video of a machine that operates perpetually. While technically it is a SMOT device, it proves critics like you wrong.

  By the way, Stefan has observed this in person so it is what it claims to be. And as such goes, perpetual motion does not say peform work but merely a system that continuously functions. I hope you enjoy choking on all of your erroneous posts. After all, it will only take a simple demonstration being repeated of how photosynthesis happens. No extraordinary proof, just a basic demonstration of an as yet undiscovered process that is known to happen which allows you to live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs


edited to add; Mark, you need to remember something even if it's only one thing. If I am right, then it will give me a chance to try and make known what might help to slow Global Warming. I think Global Warming is much more of a concern than your opinion.
 It requires more than just knowing what allows for photosynthesis. Chances are the same engineering principle would need to be applied to the desalination of sea water. If it works, it could make desalinated water about as cheap as regular tap water.
 And to throw some numbers at you. In the next 50 years, the U.S. population is expected to grow by more than 100 million people while fresh water supplies are dwindling. The world wide population is expected to blossom from the 7 billion of today to more than 9 1/2 billion people.
 Solutions are needed, not people who say I want to be a road block. If you read my other thread, you'll see that I have learned while others just kept posting like yourself. After all these years, they're still saying the same things while I think I can make a difference because of what I have learned from pursuing perpetual motion and Free Energy principles. Nobody learns from doing nothing.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Builds
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 08:53:43 PM »
Grimer if you think that know principles that would make a working gravity wheel possible, then just publish your hypothesis and your ideas can be tested.  If you are correct, you can prepare your speech for the Nobel Prize that you would surely earn with such a physics changing discovery.

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Re: Builds
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 08:53:43 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Builds
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 09:05:00 PM »
   Mark,
 Considering that you openly ignore what has been engineered, it is a control thing. Why ? It has to be proven to you on your terms.
 With something like CO2 + H2O > CH2O + O2 happens in nature. The science you keep referring to can not explain photosynthesis. Why ?
 What you fail to understand is that physics is according to the natural order of things. Engineering is not physics even though physics sometimes is used to explain engineering.
 As to your  >> The more extraordinary the claim the more compelling the required evidence must be in order to convince any rational person. <<

 The uneducated accept what they do not understand. Consider mag lev trains. They float on air. They are accepted by people who do not understand electromagnetic theory. A rational person will accept something without extraordinary proof, it happens all of the time.
 A rational person knows they don't need everything proven to them. Also, there are physicists who believe perpetual motion may be possible. The link is to a video of a machine that operates perpetually. While technically it is a SMOT device, it proves critics like you wrong.

  By the way, Stefan has observed this in person so it is what it claims to be. And as such goes, perpetual motion does not say peform work but merely a system that continuously functions. I hope you enjoy choking on all of your erroneous posts. After all, it will only take a simple demonstration being repeated of how photosynthesis happens. No extraordinary proof, just a basic demonstration of an as yet undiscovered process that is known to happen which allows you to live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs
Jim, what exactly is it that you say I have seen and that I am ignoring?  What does any of this gravity wheel stuff have to do with chemical reactions?

Rather than worry about what I may or may not know, or what I may or may not think, if you have evidence that you can either violate CoE, or that gravitational fields are not conservative, then why not show them in a clear and convincing way?

Your examples of things like Mag-Lev trains do not make extraordinary claims against established physics.  Claims that CoE can be violated do.  Claims that gravitational fields act non-conservatively are also extraordinary claims against established physics. 

Finsrud's artwork has a very large compressed spring.  It is apparent from about :10 to :13 in that video.  He has in essence built a very creative and beautiful clock.  He has not built a working perpetual motion machine.

I see no value in making things personal.  If proof exists for your claims you need only show it.

Offline j_lindgaard1

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Re: Builds
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 09:52:16 PM »
Jim, what exactly is it that you say I have seen and that I am ignoring?  What does any of this gravity wheel stuff have to do with chemical reactions?

Rather than worry about what I may or may not know, or what I may or may not think, if you have evidence that you can either violate CoE, or that gravitational fields are not conservative, then why not show them in a clear and convincing way?

Your examples of things like Mag-Lev trains do not make extraordinary claims against established physics.  Claims that CoE can be violated do.  Claims that gravitational fields act non-conservatively are also extraordinary claims against established physics. 

Finsrud's artwork has a very large compressed spring.  It is apparent from about :10 to :13 in that video.  He has in essence built a very creative and beautiful clock.  He has not built a working perpetual motion machine.

I see no value in making things personal.  If proof exists for your claims you need only show it.

  Mark,
 The fact that you ignore engineering makes things personal. And as I let Pirate88179 know, I may not need to build Bessler's wheel.
You see, if what I know is correct, it will be taught in physics classes. Still, I will be broke all the same.

  Jim

edited to add; @Pirate88179, you live in Ky., right ? I have sent a letter to the editor of the Lexington Herald and let them know that there is a simple way for an organic chemist to test my theory. And with Ky. being a coal producing state, it would be some good p.r. if a possible solution came from "the problem".
 And as I told one gal, when I have the chance, I will walk away from Bessler's wheel. It is too much work for nothing. That is why only very few people try.

 edited to add; @tinselkoala, pirate88179, ab hammer and who ever, in case you guys don't know it, Stefan is an environmentalist. That may be the main reason he has this forum. It might be that he is doing what he can to find solutions for pollution.
 Don't believe me ? Why don't you ask him yourself. That could be one reason why I am continuing to refer to Global Warming.
 Besides, I told one woman I know that I think I can help those in positions to do something about it. Kind of why I wouldn't profit from it. I'd only be making a principle known and not something that could be patented. Still, some people have families and they might want a future.

Offline j_lindgaard1

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Re: Builds
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 10:40:21 PM »
  @MarkE,
 You do have control issues. It was something you kept repeating that was not quite right.
You kept referring to the 1st Law. Anyone familiar with Isaac Asimov knows that the 3 Laws are for artificial
intelligence or AI.
 You have been confusing them with the Laws of Thermodynamics which regulate thermal or quantitate energies.
A perpetual wheel could be considered a bound system just as a hydrogen atom is a bound system. And since we know that
an 1/1H system works, we can therefore accept the second system works if the system of physics is accepted within the limits of the Laws of Thermal Dynamics. A body in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by external forces.
 Prove me wrong if you like but you can't.

   Jim

edited to add;  MarkE, if you would like to discuss physics, I can do that. I have read the autobiographies of physicists going back to when I was in junior high school back in the 70's. That along with my favorite baseball players like Mantle, Ruth, Cobb and Musial.
 But with physics, there was Keppler and Newton, the original Einstein/Schrodinger debate on relativity and quantum theory.
 Physics isn't all that difficult really. It's not. With Einstein, he's more about the wave potential like in an electron while Schrödinger was about it's potential as matter. 2 schools of thought.
 And yet Planck and his work in black body radiation and heavy metals might be what actual unites the 2 different aspects of physics. If it wasn't for him doing his experiment wrong, Planck would have proven his theory and might not have realized his constant h which allowed for Einstein's work.
 And yes, I can prove the mistake Planck made. It has to do with the propagation of thermal energy through a dense body which allows for black light. As things stand, his theory was reconsidered in the 70's of which Carl Sagan, the famous astronomer from Brooklyn, N.Y. proved with math Planck's original work.
 needless to say, I am not ignorant when it comes to history, physics and engineering.

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Builds
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 11:29:36 PM »
Jim, what exactly is it that you say I have seen and that I am ignoring?  What does any of this gravity wheel stuff have to do with chemical reactions?

Rather than worry about what I may or may not know, or what I may or may not think, if you have evidence that you can either violate CoE, or that gravitational fields are not conservative, then why not show them in a clear and convincing way?

Your examples of things like Mag-Lev trains do not make extraordinary claims against established physics.  Claims that CoE can be violated do.  Claims that gravitational fields act non-conservatively are also extraordinary claims against established physics. 

Finsrud's artwork has a very large compressed spring.  It is apparent from about :10 to :13 in that video.  He has in essence built a very creative and beautiful clock.  He has not built a working perpetual motion machine.

I see no value in making things personal.  If proof exists for your claims you need only show it.

MarkE,

Your statement: "Finsrud's artwork has a very large compressed spring.  It is apparent from about :10 to :13 in that video.  He has in essence built a very creative and beautiful clock."

should be modified to read: "It is my opinion that Finsrud's artwork has a very large compressed spring.  It is apparent from about :10 to :13 in that video.  It is my opinion that he has in essence built a very creative and beautiful clock."

because the spring you see at the top of the device is not what runs the device. The spring is there to allow the track to
tilt as the steel ball is revolving around the track. What drives the device is a 40 Kg weight in the base of the device. This
weight has magnets glued on, and there is also magnets underneath that weight. The weight is a chaos pendulum because
of the magnets. The three outer pendulums is there to governor/regulate the RPM of the steel ball. The top of the device has
a gear down system from the internal pendulum so the the internal movement of the central pendulum is geared down
a lot before the force is transferred to tilting the track.

You can see drawings etc. here: http://www.galleri-finsrud.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=105&Itemid=69
This site has a tread here: http://www.overunity.com/18/finsrud-perpetual-motion-machine/nowap/

I agree that Mr. Finsrud has built a very creative and beautiful artwork.

GL.

 

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