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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: Jack Noskills on January 17, 2014, 10:58:15 AM

Title: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 17, 2014, 10:58:15 AM

I have discovered resonant magnetic flux effect and made a device which I think is electrical version of Tesla's earthquake machine. I can now make a device that is small and powerfull enough to power cellphones and PCs. This level is enough for me, proof of concept. I believe this can be scaled up but I don't want to take all the fun so I am asking you to join the party.


Builder, your job is first to replicate it and then see if it can be scaled up. All details are in the pdf. It falls well in the 'so simple you will laugh' category.


Abstract from the pdf:
'
This short paper describes a simple method how to build a lenzless resonant transformer. Lenz law is not violated but it is used to create more efficient transformer. Without Lenz law this setup could not work.
First some simple tests are presented which forms foundation of the device. Then based on the results of these tests I built the transformer which confirms my test results. It is important to understand the method which will give you understanding. When you understand it you can build it using different components.
'


Have fun and be safe!
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on January 17, 2014, 12:36:06 PM
Jack,


You are genious !  :)   I have though a lot of questions. If I understood the concept the two magnetic currents from both secondary coils will not be pick up by primary if they are exactly equal and opposite in core (I investigate round or C-I core of Fig2). Did you tested it with various loads or it only act that way for one adjusted load ? Did you tested shorted output ? Is that the case of having series resonant circuit at secondary to allow such shorting tests ?
Much more to be digested for me but I'm greatly thankful ! That may be exactly what Don Smith had shown in one video available on youtube !


I have also a hard time understanding how the primary wound on both secondaries would produce AC current of the same phase ?


Note for future : Would that work if  pulsing primary with rectified DC (probably not square wave) to get one direction pulsed magnetic current inside core and the DC output from secondaries !!!???? I know that may be distraction at that stage but if you tested all before consider testing this also, because having DC output (2times because two secondaries but many more could be allowed of course) would considerably simplify design, COP would stil be >1 due to Q of primary tank circuit multiplied by amps of many secondaries. Put that open source if you could....


I believe what is needed is the exact coils winding directions and the resulting fluxes by primary and response from secondaries.


Best Regards
Forest
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 17, 2014, 01:11:14 PM
I had only two halogen light bulbs. I connected one, there was light, and then second bulb which lighted up and first one dimmed just a little. So not enough power to run both at the same time.


I tested shorting, I think it had little effect on primary. I think this is due to the fact that I was not even close to optimum frequency at both sides. I was lucky to get it close enough. When output is shorted without load then all power will be reactive so I guess it is harmless. But don't count on it. There should be no power in the output leads when load is not connected. There is no resonant rise occurring hence no power and no output. Only when output LC-circuit is completed with load resonant rise can occur and with that comes power.


This setup resembles Don's shoe box device which had only NST and metglass C core. Exactly the same kind of coiling at least.


I think DC options would not work. Half wave sine is a sum of multiple frequencies and there has got to be only one. But if you make a successful replication then maybe you can try it. Easiest way to get DC out is to use a diode bridge with smoothing capacitor. I tested with pulse and all I got was a squeaking noise from the core and no output.


Winding directions are in the pdf. If winding is changed it only affects polarity of the coils and you need to connect N poles together and S poles together so that secondary coils repel at output. If this is done wrong then nothing will come out and power circulates in the secondary coils only. If you make a mistake, just reverse one secondary. I have tested both CW-CW and CW-CCW secondary windings and both worked just the same.


Winding direction of primary does not matter.


All is open source and any derivations from this will also be open source. This is why I made a pdf instead of video. Provided that this is the first realization of this device of course I can claim it 'mine' and be authorized to say it is open source. Most likely this is not the first device but I guess we will see.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: d3x0r on January 17, 2014, 01:28:25 PM
Just thought I'd add a note; parallel coils add like parallel resistance... 1/(L1+L2+...) = 1/(Ltotal)... since L1 and L2 are the same this is the same as 1/L1 + 1/L1 or 2/L1... which when reversed is L1/2 = Ltotal... so parallel will reduce your inductance by half if they are the same... and will always be less than the least inductance...



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: DilJalaay on January 17, 2014, 02:46:52 PM
Well done, good work.
Love to see your actual setup.


D.J
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: dllabarre on January 17, 2014, 04:32:22 PM
Jack

Yes.. Well Done.
Can you post a pic of your build?

I'm going to try to replicate it this weekend if I have the parts.

DonL
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on January 17, 2014, 07:21:29 PM
I had only two halogen light bulbs. I connected one, there was light, and then second bulb which lighted up and first one dimmed just a little. So not enough power to run both at the same time.
Do you think that this circuit is OU?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: zcsaba77 on January 17, 2014, 08:36:20 PM
I have discovered resonant magnetic flux effect and made a device which I think is electrical version of Tesla's earthquake machine. I can now make a device that is small and powerfull enough to power cellphones and PCs. This level is enough for me, proof of concept. I believe this can be scaled up but I don't want to take all the fun so I am asking you to join the party.


Builder, your job is first to replicate it and then see if it can be scaled up. All details are in the pdf. It falls well in the 'so simple you will laugh' category.


Abstract from the pdf:
'
This short paper describes a simple method how to build a lenzless resonant transformer. Lenz law is not violated but it is used to create more efficient transformer. Without Lenz law this setup could not work.
First some simple tests are presented which forms foundation of the device. Then based on the results of these tests I built the transformer which confirms my test results. It is important to understand the method which will give you understanding. When you understand it you can build it using different components.
'


Have fun and be safe!

Hi Jack

Are you used soft steel or ferrite core on your device?

regards zcsaba
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: T-1000 on January 17, 2014, 11:05:55 PM
Hi there,

I would like to contribute something here as well:
http://youtu.be/PUcUvcoln-Y?t=2m45s (http://youtu.be/PUcUvcoln-Y?t=2m45s) - The JB Lenz-less motor
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US555190-0.png (http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US555190-0.png) (top left) - The N. Tesla (Lenz-less??) generator (not described in detail)
http://youtu.be/Zu4pzvkSkzo#t=0h12m00s (http://youtu.be/Zu4pzvkSkzo#t=0h12m00s) - The shorting of toroidal generator without almost any reaction to motor.

They are directly related to this topic and to each other - please look closely on coils winding directions and amount of windings between 2 coils, the most important thing is there to get around Lenz... ;)

P.S> Also that is directly related to http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Magnets/Leedskalnin/Magnetic-Current_Edward-Leedskalnin_51pp.pdf (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Magnets/Leedskalnin/Magnetic-Current_Edward-Leedskalnin_51pp.pdf)
Hopefuly that will bring to understanding of what is most important there.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Dave45 on January 18, 2014, 01:30:57 PM
Well done
Thanks

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on January 19, 2014, 12:03:08 AM
Page 57

Pdf below

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on January 19, 2014, 02:06:22 AM
Page 57 (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/dlattach/attach/132279/)
Good find, however in Jack's device the L2 winding is split into two magnetically opposing MMF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit#Magnetomotive_force_.28MMF.29) sources. 
From the perspective of a magnetic circuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit), that seems like a significant difference
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on January 19, 2014, 02:21:39 AM
Good find, however in Jack's device the L2 winding is split into two magnetically opposing MMF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit#Magnetomotive_force_.28MMF.29) sources. 
From the perspective of a magnetic circuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit), that seems like a significant difference

There are different versions in the pdf.  The idea is that the outer primary winding induces the inner winding, but the inner winding current does not affect the primary, because the primary windings do not go through the hole of the core, and the secondary field is restricted to the core and the hole of the core. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on January 19, 2014, 11:59:44 AM
I have doubt about secondaries. What is the correct process of connecting them ? Say I wind two coils of the same wire length and the same turns and I measure both almost the same inductance. I understood that I have to connect them in the way the resulting inductance measured by meter is minimized, right ? Would that be the correct procedure ?
Now I have to know the limit frequency for my core. Where can I find it ? In case of using two C cores joined together (kind of oval core divided into two parts like in Don Smith video) of iron what is the  upper limit ?


Then I have to attach correct capacitor and find (or compute is enough ??) resonant frequency .  The same frequency would be for series tank circuit so the capacitor remain in circuit just connected in series.


Next step  is to wind primary and connect primary capacitor in parallel tank circuit of the same resonant frequency as output tank circuit. So far so good but Jack you put some holes into document by not explaining why for some frequencies there is no power output and we should try higher frequency. The load connection is also not provided and I doubt it will work in various loads except for resistive load of known stable resistance. However that is not the point of matter for this document and I see everybody has to figure out the load connection  to not disturb series resonance at output. Don Smith had given us a few clues about that...




Jack , please fix the steps above if there is something wrong.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: zcsaba77 on January 19, 2014, 09:29:30 PM
Hi there,

I would like to contribute something here as well:
http://youtu.be/PUcUvcoln-Y?t=2m45s (http://youtu.be/PUcUvcoln-Y?t=2m45s) - The JB Lenz-less motor
http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US555190-0.png (http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US555190-0.png) (top left) - The N. Tesla (Lenz-less??) generator (not described in detail)
http://youtu.be/Zu4pzvkSkzo#t=0h12m00s (http://youtu.be/Zu4pzvkSkzo#t=0h12m00s) - The shorting of toroidal generator without almost any reaction to motor.

They are directly related to this topic and to each other - please look closely on coils winding directions and amount of windings between 2 coils, the most important thing is there to get around Lenz... ;)

P.S> Also that is directly related to http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Magnets/Leedskalnin/Magnetic-Current_Edward-Leedskalnin_51pp.pdf (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Magnets/Leedskalnin/Magnetic-Current_Edward-Leedskalnin_51pp.pdf)
Hopefuly that will bring to understanding of what is most important there.

Good luck!

Hi T-1000

What is on picture on left upper black box?

regards zcsaba77
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on January 19, 2014, 09:35:52 PM
Hi T-1000

What is on picture on left upper black box?

regards zcsaba77


It is Bertonee neon sign transformer.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: zcsaba77 on January 20, 2014, 10:27:54 AM

It is Bertonee neon sign transformer.

Hi Forest

This transformer work on 12VDC or 110/220VAC?

regards zcsaba77
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on January 20, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
Hard to guess, there are various models like that one  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bertonee-replacement-neon-transformer-04-10947-Cirqus-Voltaire-Star-Wars-Ep-1-/331099247325?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d170d92dd


Don presented a table top device with inverter so his spark coil was probably 120V rated. He has also a kind of voltage regulator because his nst output was 9kV while he used capacitors for lower voltage.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 20, 2014, 11:57:16 AM

verpies: It most certainly is OU, but I have no meters so I cannot say how much. But how much OU is not important at the moment, the working principle is.


My cell phone camera is broken, it refuses to enter in picture mode. Something wrong with the manual switch.


I have nanoperm ferrite which I got resonance effect. Haven't tried with iron because I don't have enough capacitors. I have read that for iron maximum frequency you can use is below 500 Hz.


I have also one small E-I ferrite core from a printer. With that I got OU without using capacitors, just shorted the coils to itself and no resonance effects. After this I started using nanoperm because it was bigger so easier to work with and begin playing with capacitors.


I am using audio amplifier so it can give enough push (amps) to the circuit. If someone is using signal generator they typically do not give out amps so the only way to magnetize the core is to use higher frequency. I think this very effectively rules out iron. You can still look for resonant frequency with signal generator from iron tho.


I have only light bulbs for load. Resonance is disturbed only if load is capacitive but I don't think this matters too much. If there would be only one secondary coil (like in the Utkin paper) then it would be very sensitive to capacitive changes in the total circuit, also resonant frequency would be much lower. In my tests the sweetspot in the output is several kHz wide so it is not necessary to find exact match. Most important is to tune the primary so current consumption is minimised in the driver.


When secondary coils oscillate, they create power in the LC-circuit which is then used by the load. So, when magnetic field collapses in the output LC-circuit, current reversal occurs and it rushes in the other side of the capacitor. Any load in its way gets powered and as a bonus energy is increased when other side of the capacitor is reached.



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on January 21, 2014, 12:38:12 AM
verpies: It most certainly is OU, but I have no meters...
How do you know without meters?  Did you loop it an witnessed a self-runner?

I am using audio amplifier so it can give enough push (amps) to the circuit.
Analog power amplifiers are good devices to apply stimuli to various windings.
However Amperes are not units of power.

I have only light bulbs for load.
Incandescent light bulbs make reasonably good power meters if they are the sole load at the output of a device, ...especially if they have non-coiled filaments.

Do you compare the brightness of your light bulb with the brightness of another identical light bulb supplied with DC or use a Wattbox (Bulb->DarkBox->PV_cell->Voltmeter) like Grumage ?

Most importantly: How do you measure your input power with a light bulb?
Do you realize that a 12V 20W light bulb can pass 100W of electric power at 325V, ...without even lighting up ?
...because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: hanon on January 22, 2014, 12:13:01 AM
Hi Jack,

Thanks for sharing. This idea makes sense, and I think it has potential.

Here I post a couple of videos which may be useful in this thread:

Magnetic Lines Energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTb5q9o8F8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTb5q9o8F8c)

Magnetic Flux Cancellation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc9bt5Yo0H8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc9bt5Yo0H8) 

Regards
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: e2matrix on January 22, 2014, 02:21:40 AM
JackNoskills,   Very nice writeup and thanks for sharing this.    Would you be okay with letting us (or me) know what country you are in?   I'll assume U.S. as you have good English.   I ask because it's hard to imagine not having a single meter knowing they can be had for between $5 and $10 for a digital multimeter.   Harbor Freight, Walmart or eBay...   Not having a meter while having enough $$ to buy anything Nanoperm just seems odd to me.   I'd consider shipping you one if money is really that tight.   Enough of the meter  quandary ...  ;)     
I would like to understand as verpies mentioned though just how you have determined this is OU or I think it would be better to say you are getting more power out than YOU are putting in and thus you are tapping an unseen power source from somewhere or something.    Unless you have it self running I have a hard time with that statement of it being OU since you don't know your power out or even power in.   
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: wistiti on January 22, 2014, 05:23:03 AM
Thank you Jack!
Hey guys!
Why just try to replicate and comment with our result...?!!
Good luck to all.  :)
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 22, 2014, 10:08:00 AM
How do you know without meters?  Did you loop it an witnessed a self-runner?
Analog power amplifiers are good devices to apply stimuli to various windings.
However Amperes are not units of power.
Incandescent light bulbs make reasonably good power meters if they are the sole load at the output of a device, ...especially if they have non-coiled filaments.

Do you compare the brightness of your light bulb with the brightness of another identical light bulb supplied with DC or use a Wattbox (Bulb->DarkBox->PV_cell->Voltmeter) like Grumage ?

Most importantly: How do you measure your input power with a light bulb?
Do you realize that a 12V 20W light bulb can pass 100W of electric power at 325V, ...without even lighting up ?
...because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem).



I have 1:1 transformer and stepup transformer.
First I tested using 1:1 transformer. I used 5 watt halogen on primary side and 10 watt halogen on secondary side. I got lots of light on primary and little light on secondary side. Normal transformer action. 
For second test I step up transformer. It is quite good, it can light 220 volt 40 watt bulb to more brightness compared to grid power. Watt meter hooked in front of audio amp showed power consumption as expected. Then I put 10 watt halogen on primary side and used 40 watt 220 volt light bulb on secondary side. I got full brigthness in the halogen but no output light at all, just little warmer than hand.


This proves that my setup is good enough to detect changes in power usage at the source. So, if I can light up 18 watt worth of light without a sign light in the primary side tells me something good is going on here.



My guess is that my audio amp gives out 5 volts.


I did some more testing with primary coil length, I kept the secondary coils that worked so I can see effect when only one parameter is changed. Reducing the amount of turns from about 90 to 25 and the effect was gone. 5 watt halogen in primary side was lit while there was no light in the output side which had now 10 watt bulb. Maybe it was little warm. Seems that primary requires high inductance and low capacitance while output requires high capacitance and low inductance for this to work. I will test using shorter secondary coils next when I have time.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 22, 2014, 10:19:43 AM
JackNoskills,   Very nice writeup and thanks for sharing this.    Would you be okay with letting us (or me) know what country you are in?   I'll assume U.S. as you have good English.   I ask because it's hard to imagine not having a single meter knowing they can be had for between $5 and $10 for a digital multimeter.   Harbor Freight, Walmart or eBay...   Not having a meter while having enough $$ to buy anything Nanoperm just seems odd to me.   I'd consider shipping you one if money is really that tight.   Enough of the meter  quandary ...  ;)     
I would like to understand as verpies mentioned though just how you have determined this is OU or I think it would be better to say you are getting more power out than YOU are putting in and thus you are tapping an unseen power source from somewhere or something.    Unless you have it self running I have a hard time with that statement of it being OU since you don't know your power out or even power in.


As long as I don't have a meter or even a camera to prove this it is just me and my gut feeling. I wanted to share this still in case someone is interested. I am not going to try to make a self runner, make money or anything like that. For me this is just a puzzle and I like solving this kind of stuff rather than watching TV. Thanks for the offer though. If I get high enough output power I try to learn how to move picture from N70 to my PC, if camera starts working again that is.


For me there is just one experiment left to do, effect of thicker wire and shorter secondary coils. To continue from this I would need signal gen to try higher frequencies and maybe oscilloscope. And off course learn to use them. I am sure there are members here who already have this hardware. Problem is that I don't know if this works with signal generator. So if one tries using signal gen and fails, he might give up too soon.


I will update the pdf when done and put it here, it should give a sort of guideline what to do.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on January 22, 2014, 11:05:11 AM
Jack


I have a problem to visualize how you are finding the resonant frequency of secondaries , or  you did that for whole circuit after winding primary and attaching bulb to primary to see the effect of impedance ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: penno64 on January 22, 2014, 11:06:36 AM
Hey Jack,

You need to take 5 minutes and watch -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 22, 2014, 12:06:32 PM
Jack


I have a problem to visualize how you are finding the resonant frequency of secondaries , or  you did that for whole circuit after winding primary and attaching bulb to primary to see the effect of impedance ?


There is a picture of it in the pdf. I think primary is not need to be wound when resonant frequency is looked using secondary coils. I put bulb for detecting current flow in the secondary before parallel LC circuit. When the light went from bright to dim and back to bright I got reasonably close. It does not have to be exact match.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on January 22, 2014, 02:55:34 PM

There is a picture of it in the pdf. I think primary is not need to be wound when resonant frequency is looked using secondary coils. I put bulb for detecting current flow in the secondary before parallel LC circuit. When the light went from bright to dim and back to bright I got reasonably close. It does not have to be exact match.


Ah, I see... so you test the same way as primary with parallel tank circuit and a bulb between audio amp and tank circuit. Good , I didn't noticed that in pdf.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: vince on January 23, 2014, 12:41:36 AM
Hi Jack

I had some time today, so I put together a quick replication of your transformer. I took 2, 120 to 12 volt transformers and cut them apart then welded and bolted them to get a similar setup to your 2 output coil version in your paper.
The output coils have about 40 to 50 turns of heavier gauge wire and the input outer coil has 190 turns. I used the existing coils from the transformer which were factory wound to the laminated core and I unwound one of the input coils from one of the transformers  and rewound it onto the other two as per your drawing.

I do not have the proper capacitors yet so I tried it without them .
At first I tried a 12volt ac input and measured 1.9 volts on each of the output coils. when I wired the output coils together like your diagram I measured 3 volts.
The input wattmeter measured 35 watts to my power source transformer.
If you short out either of the output coils on the output seperately there is no change to input watts. However, when the two output coils are wired together as per your diagram and then shorted the input wattmeter jumps to 45watts.
I attempted to feed 120 volts in so that I could use my larger capacitors to test the circuit but the input coil gets way to hot.

Is this somewhat similar to your setup?
Can any body explain  why my primary gets so hot with 120 volts. It is the same length of wire used on the original transformer which did not get hot.
Thanks

Vince

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 23, 2014, 08:37:12 AM

Problem is that impedance is not high enough in your primary. The wire that earlier was used as primary was on looped core. Looped core has much higher impedance than rod core so now your primary is leaking. Even if you don't put anything in the output, idle current is still way too high.


Did you test with load ? If so, are you sure you connected the output wires correctly together ? When they are wrong there is nothing going in the load.
Voltage increases when power is taken. You can verify this by putting voltmeter in one output coil and then short the other output. Amperage also increases. Do these tests using your 12 volt setup.


If you can add turns to your primary and later test using 120 volts, then put current limiter in your primary side. A capacitor or a light bulb. Then your primary does not get hot if impedance is not high enough.


Yesterday I tested using shorter primary using resonance and it did not work. If you frequency is fixed to 60 Hz then only way to increase impedance is to add more turns in your primary.


For me this has worked best when impedance in primary is high even without capacitors. When I found suitable amount of turns I try with capacitor.


Now I am not sure if there is turns ratio that controls the output or something else. There is clearly turns ratio in effect when capacitors are not used.


So far my output power levels are low, atmost 15 watts out, a guess. I don't know if this can be scaled up, but if I can get it close to 30 watts then it is good enough to power a PC. At the moment it is good enough to power a cell phone.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: kingscom on January 23, 2014, 10:00:23 AM
Hi Jack Noskills

I am new member and i am interesting to see a snapshot of one of ur current project, u can use a camera phone to take a picture, it will give a lot of idea what u discribe on ur pdf, with picture, i mean real project picture it will help to figure out there idea what u r doing,

Can i use iron core or ferrite core, which one is best to use? or fly back core, i have a flyback core in attachmemt can u check it can be use.

thanks
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on January 24, 2014, 02:14:38 AM
This proves that my setup is good enough to detect changes in power usage at the source. So, if I can light up 18 watt worth of light without a sign of light in the primary side tells me something good is going on here.
Wrong.

Penno64's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY) should've made you realize where the error is.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 24, 2014, 07:58:55 AM
Wrong.

Penno64's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY) should've made you realize where the error is.


I watched the video and did not notice any error, can you explain what was wrong ?
Any idea what would happen in the primary when the load is disconnected ? Would primary go out of resonance and light there would lit up again ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 24, 2014, 08:09:20 AM
Hi Jack Noskills

I am new member and i am interesting to see a snapshot of one of ur current project, u can use a camera phone to take a picture, it will give a lot of idea what u discribe on ur pdf, with picture, i mean real project picture it will help to figure out there idea what u r doing,

Can i use iron core or ferrite core, which one is best to use? or fly back core, i have a flyback core in attachmemt can u check it can be use.

thanks


If you can play with frequencies I recommend ferrite E-I. Then you can quickly make tests using less wire and learn it. With E-I there are 3 coils working together and it is better than 2 coils.


Your flyback looks fine, except there is something that look like air gap.


I started like this. First no capacitors and wound only primary. Enough turns so that impedance gets so high that current is blocked at frequency above 10 kHz. Next I put same amount of turns in secondaries and tested without capacitors. When it looked ok I started to use capacitors and look for resonance. First in secondary and then in primary to match frequency I found.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on January 24, 2014, 10:46:45 AM
I watched the video and did not notice any error, can you explain what was wrong ?
Just that a light bulb is a false power indicator when it is not the load itself.
In your test, the bulb on the input side does not constitute a load - it is only in series with the load (the primary winding in this case), thus you cannot draw any conclusions about the input power based on the brightness of this bulb due to MPTT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem).

However, you can do so with the other bulb on the output side, because there the bulb is the load and the power measuring device, in one.

The video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdcwDCBoNY) also shows that the input bulb is off and the output bulb is on, but the circuit still draws significant power from the sig.gen.

Any idea what would happen in the primary when the load is disconnected ? Would primary go out of resonance and light there would lit up again ?
I assume that by the word "load" you mean the bulb connected to the secondary winding.  This is not obvious because the primary LC Tank can also be considered a load to the sig.gen and the input bulb.  You must be more precise when using the word "load'.

If the secondary winding was interrupted, then it would act as if it was not there.  The impedance of the output bulb would cease to be reflected by mutual inductance to the primary winding, which would cause its apparent inductance (and inductive reactance) to increase.  This would detune the primary LC Tank from the resonance frequency and the input bulb would light up. 
You can almost see it at 3:57 when the primary winding is still over the ferrite rod but already away from the secondary.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 24, 2014, 02:49:40 PM
Did some testing using shorter secondaries and result was not good. I got the same behaviour as before but not much light in the output. About 90 turns primary and 22 turn secondaries, so all I got was a stepdown action.


This means no resonant rise in the output and not scalable to high power as such. Something is still missing.


I see if I get lucky with my tiny E-I ferrite, I will try to make isolated resonant LC in the middle and use the other two coils for load, also resonance there.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 29, 2014, 02:22:23 PM

I finished playing with the ferrite E-I. I used 200 turns in each coil, also the primary had about 200 turns. Best results I got when I placed capacitor in the middle of the ferrite so it formed an isolated tank circuit. Other two secondaries were connected together via another capacitor, same setup as before.


I could vary the inductance of the middle coil, 50, 150 or 200 turns. I also varied capacitors and tuned whole system as a whole. There was always a sweet spot and when the drive frequency was the same then shorting the output had no effect on source. Also putting a load had no effect on source. I was unable to tune the primary but still it worked well.


Side lobes of the ferrite core were 3mm x 8mm and about 50 turns fitted in it. Middle was 6mm x 8mm. My source had 5 watt halogen and no light there while output was 10 watt halogen and almost full brightness.


I tried the same using bigger nanoperm core but it was not as good as the tiny ferrite. So E-I is much more efficient than toroid since there are three coils working together instead of two.


Now I wish I had a scope so I could see the voltage waveform in the isolated tank compared to voltage waveform of the output when the whole system is tuned.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: wistiti on January 29, 2014, 08:17:56 PM
Hi jack!
How do you connect the load on the primary serial or paralele with the source?
I gave it a try with a tv yoke this weekend but did not acheive great result :(
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on January 30, 2014, 09:32:47 AM
There is a picture in the PDF how to tune output part and when tuned how to connect the load.


Were you able to find resonance at both sides ? It does not work well without resonance. Also if you find resonance but there is not enough turns in your primary it also does not work well.


A good starting point is to 1:1 ratio with all coils and enough turns in your primary so it blocks current flow without capacitor. Then you can begin to explore it, you will have a working baseline setup to compare against and see what is good and what is bad. Start from low voltage so it is safe to handle. Gain knowledge of it and then gradually increase voltage.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 11, 2014, 09:24:28 AM
Updated pdf with some new information after some testing.


Does anyone have a 1:1 transformer and some capacitors laying around ? If so, then you should read chapter 6 and do the simple resonance test described there. You should get reverse operation of transformer: more power you take, less power will be used.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Farmhand on February 11, 2014, 09:51:48 AM
Updated pdf with some new information after some testing.


Does anyone have a 1:1 transformer and some capacitors laying around ? If so, then you should read chapter 6 and do the simple resonance test described there. You should get reverse operation of transformer: more power you take, less power will be used.

That's an effect of increased Lenz effect at no load which is reduced by the load due to less tank current when loaded. Definitely not Lenzless. It's the same effect as the acceleration under load and it's next to useless. Show us some input and output power measurements. Or the difference in power available when in that mode and when not like I do in this video. near the end I show it can power loads when used in a reasonable manner.

Video clip of reduced input when loaded of transformer, a big reduction, but the output is limited by doing that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxde9qga79c


I've got almost 150 video experiments in the bank and 1000's actually done, and I take some measurements although usually I'm not as interested in accurate measurements as getting to the truth and understanding the effects.
..

Cheers
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 11, 2014, 09:58:48 AM
I did not say that circuit in chapter 6 is lenzless. I just think that it is interesting effect.


I could measure the heat of the halogens at both sides using a thermal scanner, but it would not be very accurate. It is enough that primary halogen does not burn my finger but the output halogen does.


EDIT:
I briefly watched the video, not all of it as I don't have time at the moment. Nice setup indeed and I see you are a pro. Good.


You did not use resonant caps in this test ? Have you done setup that is similar to what I did (the chapter 6 circuit) in some other builds ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 11, 2014, 03:12:54 PM
Realized that editing existing post does not trigger notification, so Farmhand, can you answer my questions ?


My input halogen was 5 watt/12 volt and output 10 watt/12 volt.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 20, 2014, 08:56:50 AM
Test done by itsu, testing resonance effect in a toroid using two similar overlapped coils. Differs from my tests where coils were separate and on opposite sides of the toroid. But an interesting test result still.


[/font]Ok,  i toke a shot at this.Single ferrite core (6.5cm od) dual speaker wire (stranded 22 awg) wound twice around the whole circumference meaning 60 turns.So we have a primary coil of 60 turns with 4mH and 0.2 Ohm and a secondary coil with 4mH and 0.2 Ohm.2 capacitors of 220nF are attached to both coils which should give us a resonance frequency of about 5.3KHz according to http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm (http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm). Measurements confirm this, but resonance is very broad. Bulbs used are 6V.It turns out that in this situation we do not have a synchronious resonance on the primary and secondaryPrimary resonance (input bulb off) is at 2.9KHz, while secondary resonance (output bulb lit) is at 7.8KHz.Using another set of capacitors (7nF) shows similar behaviour, but on a higher frequency.I think this is not the correct thread for this, but i leave it to jack if he want to move this to one of his own threads on this subject.Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOX0tqgnD_w&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOX0tqgnD_w&feature=youtu.be)Regards Itsu
[/font]

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 20, 2014, 10:30:44 AM
Test done by itsu, testing resonance effect in a toroid using two similar overlapped coils. Differs from my tests where coils were separate and on opposite sides of the toroid. But an interesting test result still.






Ok, i can now work on some suggested changes, like using prim./sec.  on opposite sides of the toroid.
But first i will try some more measurements suggested by verpies like testing resonance with secondary open or bulb only.
And to rewind my coil to be forth and back around the core instead of twice around it as it is now.

Regards Itsu


Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 20, 2014, 10:32:00 AM
Test done by itsu, testing resonance effect in a toroid using two similar overlapped coils. Differs from my tests where coils were separate and on opposite sides of the toroid. But an interesting test result still.
Do you realize that by making the coils narrow and separate and winding them on opposite sides of the toroid you decrease the coefficient of magnetic coupling and increase flux leakage?  This significantly decreases the energy transfer efficiency in such transformer.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 20, 2014, 11:01:35 AM
Magnetic current wants to loop back to itself through every possible route it can, even through air. Air has permeability of 1, my core has 80000. It is my opinion that this looping occurs according to path reluctance, so in my case only 1/80000 part would go through air so this leakage will be insignificant here.


But, purpose here is just to check how resonance effect changes by using two coils on opposite sides. I should have tested this myself but I forgot, so my bad. In my testing using two separate coils I had just one resonance point (primary lamp off while brightly secondary lit), but maybe my rude measurement style just did not notice it. My input bulb was 5 watt and output 10 watt halogen. Normal trafo operation would be that input bulb always has more light than output right ?


If I would use small capacitor in place of bulb then that should give me maximum input power system can use at a certain frequency ? How to compute that, Q*U*U*2*frequency ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 20, 2014, 12:43:20 PM
My input bulb was 5 watt and output 10 watt halogen. Normal trafo operation would be that input bulb always has more light than output right ?

Well, remember that the input bulb is "outside" the primary (parallel) LC, while the output bulb is inside the (serial) LC, so i doubt
that "Normal trafo operation" applies on the brightness of these bulbs.

The second question i leave for more knowledeable people  :)

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 20, 2014, 01:48:38 PM
Magnetic current wants to loop back to itself through every possible route it can, even through air. Air has permeability of 1, my core has 80000.
That is almost true.  The cs.area and length of the magnetic path are also factors.

It is my opinion that this looping occurs according to path reluctance, so in my case only 1/80000 part would go through air so this leakage will be insignificant here.
80000 relative permeability is a lot for a ferrite core, but it is achievable with Metglas and Nanoperm materials.
However, 80000 relative permeability does not mean 80000 lower reluctance than air when core shape/length and its crossection are accounted for.
But, yes most of the flux will be confined to the core of such high permeability.

But, purpose here is just to check how resonance effect changes by using two coils on opposite sides.
Large current flowing in the secondary winding will expel flux from under it, even if the permeability of the core is 80000.
Sufficiently large secondary current will make that core segment appear as if it had the permeability close to air.
This effect is not minor like the previous one.

Also, when the high permeability core saturates at 1A and 100 turns, then its differential permeability will fall down to almost 1 and it will create a lot of transfer nonlinearities before that.

It makes no sense to invest in a core with 80000 permeability only to decrease the magnetic coupling coefficient of a transformer built upon this core by pri/sec winding separation.
If you want to have small magnetic coupling coefficient in a transformer, you might as well build it around a low permeability core or an air gapped core (both will not saturate so easily and will be more linear).

Normal trafo operation would be that input bulb always has more light than output bulb, right ?
No, because the input bulb indicates the input current and the output bulb indicates output power.

Well, remember that the input bulb is "outside" the primary (parallel) LC, while the output bulb is inside the (serial) LC, so i doubt that "Normal trafo operation" applies on the brightness of these bulbs.
That's true, too.

If I would use small capacitor in place of bulb ...
Which bulb?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 20, 2014, 01:59:30 PM
capacitor in place of input bulb
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 20, 2014, 03:09:57 PM
If parallel capacitor in the primary side is removed so that only inductor is left, would bulb in primary side reflect power consumption any better ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 20, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
If I would use small capacitor (C1) in place of the input bulb then that should give me maximum input power the system can use at a certain frequency ? How to compute that, Q*U*U*2*frequency ?
First calculate the total reactance of the primary circuit at given frequency XC1 + (1/XC2 + 1/XL).
The capacitive reactance is equal to XC=-1/2πfC
The inductive reactance is equal to XL=2πfL

Then use the MPTT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem#In_reactive_circuits) to compute power in the primary circuit.

Finally you'll have to account for the reflected impedance of the secondary circuit, e.g. the real part of the secondary impedance (the ohmic resistance) will influence the inductance of the primary winding. The higher the mutual magnetic coupling and the lower the resistance of the secondary circuit, the lower the apparent inductance of the primary winding.  Calculating the reflected imaginary part of the secondary impedance, will put hair on your chest.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 21, 2014, 12:22:24 AM
First some open ends from yesterday answered:

(Mind you this is now with 7nF caps instead of the 220nF caps used in the video yesterday.
I redid the same test yesterday also with 7nF caps and the results where similar as with the 220nF caps in the video, only the resonance frequencies where higher).


opening the secondary and scoping the primary LC (while injecting a signal with an extra few (7) turns) shows a more peak like
resonance (using 7nF cap) of 21.3KHz at 80V pp, while the 40Vpp frequencies are at 44 and 11KHz.

Connecting my bulb to the secondary only, removes any resonance completely, at least i see no more resonance peak.


I then rewinded my coil to have 2 complete turns on the circumference of the core, but after 1 revolution i turned back, so have now
a forth and back kind of winding (this is where the next video starts).

I redid the above tests, pointing to a somewhat similar resonance peak of around 22KHz (7nF cap prim, open end sec), while when attaching the
bulb to the secondary again, the resonance disappears!


Then i set up again the first test with this rewounded coil, meaning primary LC (7nF cap) feeding through the input bulb, and output bulb inbetween the
secondary series LC.


Hunting for resonance now reveals a total different picture as yesterday, as the primary peaks (bulb off) around 22KHZ and the secondary
peaks (output bulb dimly on) around 550KHz!!??

Further measurements include the input power (SG rms voltage * SG rms current = Math avg) when primary in resonance and secondary in resonance.
It shows that the input current around primary resonance was leading or trailing the input voltage by 90° depending on which side of the resonance we are.
But it also shows that when the secondary is in resonance, the input voltage and current are in phase, meaning a pure resistive load?

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HzTHopA_Y&feature=youtu.be   

Questions:
why is the resonance disappearing when connecting the bulb only to the secondary (load is to much)?
why is after rewinding the coil the both resonances way off (prim. res at 22KHz / sec res. at 550KHz)?


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 21, 2014, 09:18:22 AM

You have confirmed the effect I had. I did not notice the first resonant point, most likely because it was below 1 kHz and I started sweeping from 1 kHz. Though this coil is still different from mine effect seems to be the same: second resonance point orders of magnitude higher than the first one.


What if you now remove the capacitor in primary and feed the system with 550 kHz, the second resonant frequency (could be that this changes when cap is removed) ? Primary should now effectively block all current flow and when bulb is connected to output then its effect on primary would be low.


Possibly more power now flowing on the output side compared to input side ?
Change to bigger capacitor in the output. Second resonance frequency would come down, does output power increase ?



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 21, 2014, 11:40:56 AM
Opening the secondary and scoping the primary LC (while injecting a signal with an extra few (7) turns) shows a more peak like
resonance
Don't think that those 7 extra turns are loosely coupled.  They are not.
As such they will not allow the resonance amplitude to build up higher than SG's amplitude (measured on those extra turns) :(

Connecting my bulb to the secondary only, removes any resonance completely, at least i see no more resonance peak.
...
Q:Why is the resonance disappearing when connecting the bulb only to the secondary (load is to much)?
Due to the high magnetic coupling coefficient, connecting a bulb across the secondary is equivalent to connecting the same bulb across the primary (and leaving the secondary open).  You can try it and see the equivalence for yourself.  The resistance of this bulb significantly decreases the Q of the primary LC tank, decreases its amplitude and flattens its frequency response.

I then rewound my coil to have 2 complete turns on the circumference of the core, but after 1 revolution i turned back, so have now a forth and back kind of winding (this is where the next video starts).
By keeping the turn direction constant for 60 turns and reversing the circumferential advancement after 1 revolution and even number of revolutions (2), you have made a transformer that is close to an ideal.  It has almost not flux leakage, no leakage inductance and magnetic coupling coefficient close to 1.

That is very good for an IMT or a power supply transformer, but for the purpose of an oscillator it has no leakage inductance that could oscillate.

I redid the above tests, pointing to a somewhat similar resonance peak of around 22KHz (7nF cap prim, open end sec), while when attaching the bulb to the secondary again, the resonance disappears!
The same statement below is even more true because the coefficient of mutual coupling is even closer to 1 than before.

"Due to the high magnetic coupling coefficient, connecting a bulb across the secondary is equivalent to connecting the same bulb across the primary (and leaving the secondary open).  You can try it and see the equivalence for yourself.  The resistance of this bulb significantly decreases the Q of the primary LC tank, decreases its amplitude and flattens its frequency response."

Now the frequency response is so flattened that it appears to disappear.

Then i set up again the first test with this rewounded coil, meaning primary LC (7nF cap) feeding through the input bulb, and output bulb inbetween the secondary series LC.
Hunting for resonance now reveals a total different picture as yesterday, as the primary peaks (bulb off) around 22KHZ and the secondary peaks (output bulb dimly on) around 550KHz!!??
Q: Why is after rewinding the coil the both resonances way off (prim. res at 22KHz / sec res. at 550KHz)?
Again, that's due to the high magnetic coupling coefficient of an almost ideal transformer.  The free secondary inductance almost does not exist - it is converted to a voltage source by the transformer action.  Whatever remains resonates at 550kHz.  Also, all loads connected to the secondary are reflected into the primary almost without any losses.

It shows that the input current around primary resonance was leading or trailing the input voltage by 90° depending on which side of the resonance we are.
As it should, as it should

But it also shows that when the secondary is in resonance, the input voltage and current are in phase, meaning a pure resistive load?
Yes...or that any remainng inductive reactance has been cancelled by capacitive reactance (or vice versa).
It should be investigated

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HzTHopA_Y&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2HzTHopA_Y&feature=youtu.be)   
For OU hunting purposes the interesting situation would occur when the phase shift between the input voltage and current was 90º and on the output side - 0º.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 21, 2014, 03:52:35 PM

Thanks for this great info.


Quote
Don't think that those 7 extra turns are loosely coupled.  They are not.

Ok,  what i meant was, it was not directly coupled into one of the both coils dampening them by the 50 Ohm impedance of the SG.


Quote
By keeping the turn direction constant for 60 turns and reversing the circumferential advancement after 1 revolution and even number of revolutions (2), you have made a transformer that is close to an ideal.  It has almost not flux leakage, no leakage inductance and magnetic coupling coefficient close to 1.

That is very good for an IMT or a power supply transformer, but for the purpose of an oscillator it has no leakage inductance that could oscillate.

Ok,  so i will keep this ideal transformer for some project where i need an IMT.
A good Impedance Matching Transformer is hard to come by.

Quote
Yes...or that any remainng inductive reactance has been cancelled by capacitive reactance (or vice versa).
It should be investigated

Ok,  i will do some more testing when the secondary is in resonance around 550KHz like also mentioned by Jack above.


At the moment i am winding a new toriod consisting of 2x 200 turns (cw and ccw) of 0.4mm magnet wire on opposite sides of the core like Jack seems to have and do some similar tests.

I can say now already that it does NOT take just half an hour to make it like suggested by Jack earlier  :)

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 21, 2014, 06:19:44 PM
Ok,  what i meant was, it was not directly coupled into one of the both coils dampening them by the 50 Ohm impedance of the SG.
I estimate that the 50Ω of SG appears as ~300Ω to the primry LC tank after impedance reflection and magnetic coupling coefficient of these 7 turns slightly less than 1.

Ok,  so i will keep this ideal transformer for some project where i need an IMT.
A good Impedance Matching Transformer is hard to come by.
A 1:1 IMT is not very useful.  To make a 100:1 IMT you'll need to rewind :(
What is the core's material anyway?

At the moment i am winding a new toriod consisting of 2x 200 turns (cw and ccw) of 0.4mm magnet wire on opposite sides of the core like Jack seems to have and do some similar tests.
That will make Jack happy.
The leakage inductance of this transformer will be higher.  This leakage inductance will form an LC tank with a capacitor.
Note, that the same effect can be accomplished with an ideal transformer by connecting external inductors in series with its windings.

I can say now already that it does NOT take just half an hour to make it like suggested by Jack earlier  :)
Maybe he has a Jovil machine ;)
I hate winding toroids by hand - my spools are always too big to fit through the core's hole  >:(
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 21, 2014, 10:00:13 PM


Quote
A 1:1 IMT is not very useful.  To make a 100:1 IMT you'll need to rewind :(
What is the core's material anyway?

Well, my plan was to put the both coils in series creating one primary using a new coil of a few turns as new secondary.

The core's material is unknown to me, but knowing the od (65mm), the id (40mm), the thickness (9mm) and the inductance with a 5 turns coil (20uH)
i calculate the permeability to be around 1000 using the methode given by Vasiliy Buslaev (where did he go?) here (http://www.overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg338840/#msg338840)

Quote
Maybe he has a Jovil machine ;)
I hate winding toroids by hand - my spools are always too big to fit through the core's hole  >:(


It just fits  :)

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 22, 2014, 02:04:24 AM
Well, my plan was to put the both coils in series creating one primary using a new coil of a few turns as new secondary.
I hate to split hairs but my transformers always work better when the secondary is under the primary winding (...or interleaved together).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 22, 2014, 06:02:56 PM
You have confirmed the effect I had. I did not notice the first resonant point, most likely because it was below 1 kHz and I started sweeping from 1 kHz. Though this coil is still different from mine effect seems to be the same: second resonance point orders of magnitude higher than the first one.


What if you now remove the capacitor in primary and feed the system with 550 kHz, the second resonant frequency (could be that this changes when cap is removed) ? Primary should now effectively block all current flow and when bulb is connected to output then its effect on primary would be low.


Possibly more power now flowing on the output side compared to input side ?
Change to bigger capacitor in the output. Second resonance frequency would come down, does output power increase ?


I removed the input cap as requested, but then i lost all resonance peaks.
Not sure the input bulb also needs to be removed, anyhow, no real abnormallities seen.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMXVnca_FiQ&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 23, 2014, 02:42:59 AM
I removed the input cap as requested, but then i lost all resonance peaks.
Now only the capacitive reactance of the secondary capacitor determines the current. 
Capacitive reactance decreases with increase of frequency
so the current increases with increase of frequency (and the bulbs gets brighter).

At very high frequencies the transformer exhibits some minor secondary effects.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 23, 2014, 08:45:51 PM
Thanks verpies.

I know Jack is not in this weekend, so on the risk that he misses the above info, i went on and build a core more as i think Jack has it.

Ferrite core u=1000,
2x 200 turn coils on opposite sides of this core (0.4mm magnet wire)
2x 21mH inductance
2x 1.3 Ohm resistance
Prim. CW, sec. CCW

Together with 2x 7nF capacitors and 2x 6V bulbs i build a similar circuit as with the earlier core and did some measurements.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4xy9aEJJ_g

It shows that never the output bulb is brighter then the input bulb allthough there is some time/frequency where the input bulb is off and the output bulb on.

To me this does not show any abnormal behavior.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 24, 2014, 08:28:58 AM
Very nice experiments, and the cat looked nice too. Now we know that capacitor is needed in the output side.


I did notice a brief moment where output bulb was brighter than input, but on wards.


What were the first and second resonance points ?


Realized during weekend that now we should try to bring the second resonance point to same with the first one. Maybe this can be done by adding caps to output side ?



If first resonance point is for example 22 kHz and second is 550 kHz when using same valued caps then this is 25 fold difference. To bring second resonance point down then you would need 25*25*7 nf = 4375 nf worth of capacitors. This is what the math says but reality maybe different.


So for the next test can you do this:


1. Measure first resonance point with output disconnected, input bulb not needed here.
2. Measure second resonance point with only cap in the output, also no bulbs here on either side.
    From these values we get the factor that should say how much capacitors are needed in the output.
3. Start adding output capacitors and see how second resonance point moves down. Does it affect first resonance point ? Mark the new resonance point and voltage in the output cap and also power circulating in the output.



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 24, 2014, 11:12:13 AM

Hi Jack,

offcourse we can manipulate all kind of settings by adding/removing caps/bulbs etc. to see what happens, but.......
I thought that you claimed to have some kind of special effect when setting up a simple experiment (30 minutes).

Up till now i have tried to follow your drawings (no pictures yet of your setup, why not escapes me) and created/measured 3 different core/coil setups.

all 3 behaves differently, but all of them show effects having to do with resonance which have been gracefully and very knowledably explained by verpies.

So before i continue testing, could you please tell me:

which of the 3 setups i have resembles the best your setup which has this special effect?
Did you notice in any of my tests the special effect you are claiming? And if so which setup/when?
What components are you using (besides the M88 nanoperm core), like capacitors, wire, nbr of turns?


Concerning your questions (i assume they are for this latest setup):

Quote
What were the first and second resonance points ?

i looked at my video again and this showed:

Prim. resonance (very broadbanded) 180KHz - 700Hz
Sec   resonance 62KHz.  (primary responance dips almost at this same frequency as the prim bulb comes on too).


Quote
Realized during weekend that now we should try to bring the second resonance point to same with the first one.
Maybe this can be done by adding caps to output side ?

Well, as you can see above, the primary is already in resonance all the time when the secondary comes into resonance,
so i don't think what you suggest is possible.



Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 24, 2014, 12:17:07 PM
Hi Jack,

offcourse we can manipulate all kind of settings by adding/removing caps/bulbs etc. to see what happens, but.......
I thought that you claimed to have some kind of special effect when setting up a simple experiment (30 minutes).

Up till now i have tried to follow your drawings (no pictures yet of your setup, why not escapes me) and created/measured 3 different core/coil setups.

all 3 behaves differently, but all of them show effects having to do with resonance which have been gracefully and very knowledably explained by verpies.

So before i continue testing, could you please tell me:

which of the 3 setups i have resembles the best your setup which has this special effect?
Did you notice in any of my tests the special effect you are claiming? And if so which setup/when?
What components are you using (besides the M88 nanoperm core), like capacitors, wire, nbr of turns?


Concerning your questions (i assume they are for this latest setup):

i looked at my video again and this showed:

Prim. resonance (very broadbanded) 180KHz - 700Hz
Sec   resonance 62KHz.  (primary responance dips almost at this same frequency as the prim bulb comes on too).


Well, as you can see above, the primary is already in resonance all the time when the secondary comes into resonance,
so i don't think what you suggest is possible.



Regards Itsu



The last one shows the same effect, second resonant frequency which is higher than resonant frequency of the primary when output is not connected at all. Also core that was winded as verpies said had it. This is why think something special might happen if second resonant frequency matches the first resonant frequency. By first resonance I mean point where primary resonates when output is not connected at all and there is no current flowing in the primary side because it is blocked by parallel LC. This resonant point cannot be wide. [/size][size=78%]I cannot test this so I don't know, but you have the tools to investigate it. Adding a bigger capacitor at output brings 2nd resonant frequency down. I noticed this happening in my tests when changing from 500 nf to 1000 nf. But why it happened I have no idea.


Can you see what I am after ? Adding caps in output does not change resonant frequency of the primary LC. When second resonant frequency matches the first one, current is blocked in the primary LC. Now when power is taken at this frequency, what is the result ? Impedance of the system does not change, hence source will see only resistive load. How much this then affects source ?


I used 1000 nf caps, about 80 turns of 0.31 mm wire and permeability of M88 is 80000.


The purpose of this thread is the third coil around the whole thing. When I was testing this I tried also without third coil and realized 2nd frequency occurs also there. I got the same amount of light out, but now input was affected also. However, I got more light and heat out than in. Now your vids have shown that when second resonance occurs input voltage is in phase with input current so input power computing is not complex. Also your vids showed that there is also the first resonant frequency still left. These were new info to me.

At the moment I don't which one is more interesting, three coil system or this two coil dual resonance system. There could be surprises ahead, I hope you still have strength to try the resonant matching using caps with the two coil system. Lets not give up just yet.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 24, 2014, 01:33:52 PM

Jack,

i have no intensions to stop now, but i need some clear directions.

The very first sentences already makes my head spin  :o :

Quote
The last one shows the same effect, second resonant frequency which is higher than resonant frequency of the primary when output is not connected at all.
Also core that was winded as verpies said had it.


You mean the last setup with the 2x 200 turns, Right?
If so then again, the sec. res freq. is NOT higher then prim. res freq., sec res fall into the broad prim res.
And what do you mean by "when output is not connected at all"?   I never removed the output bulb!

And its normal that when either LC is in resonance, we see only a resistive load meaning both voltage and current in phase.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 24, 2014, 01:55:40 PM
Jack,

i have no intensions to stop now, but i need some clear directions.

The very first sentences already makes my head spin  :o :


You mean the last setup with the 2x 200 turns, Right?
If so then again, the sec. res freq. is NOT higher then prim. res freq., sec res fall into the broad prim res.
And what do you mean by "when output is not connected at all"?   I never removed the output bulb!

And its normal that when either LC is in resonance, we see only a resistive load meaning both voltage and current in phase.

Regards Itsu


Yes, setup with 2*200 turns.


Sorry about the mess with the terms, I explain.



Resonant frequency of the 21 mH coil with 7 nf cap is 13127 Hz when secondary is not connected from: f=1/2*pi*sqrt(LC). This is what I mean with first resonant frequency.


Second resonant frequency was at 62 kHz when secondary was connected using 7 nf cap.


This is 4.7 fold difference so this squared times 7 nf gives 156 nf capacitor would be needed at output to bring second resonant frequency down to 13127 Hz. If I am correct that is. Using 220 nf should bring it lower than 13127 Hz, it is a good test to see if this actually happens. If result is not lower than 13127 Hz, then the formula I used is not correct and proper C to use needs to be searhed for.


Now I am thinking it would make sense to bring first resonance frequency down by using bigger capacitor in the primary. With 220 nf primary cap first resonant frequency would be 2342 Hz giving 26 fold difference (if secondary resonance is still 62 kHz), resulting in 26*26*220 = 154243 nf worth of C in the output. Hmm, maybe a bit too much. This is for further study if something interesting is found with current setup using 7 nf primary capacitor.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 24, 2014, 02:30:31 PM

Ok, 

Latest setup (2x 200), lets follow that one as it is the closed of what you have right now.
I agree on the calculated resonance frequencies (21 mH coil with 7 nf cap is 13127 Hz) as it is confirmed by my online calculator
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm

But somehow the circuit changes the parameters as i found a broad prim res freq of 180KHz - 700Kz and sec. res freq. of 62KHz
So either the inductance or capacitance or both is changed under influenz of the serial/parallel resonances with the bulbs (resistor/inductor) in place.

I will use the latest setup (2x 200) again with the 7nF and will see if adding capacitors to the secondary will decrease the sec res freq ideally to 13127Hz


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: forest on February 24, 2014, 02:42:28 PM
I believe you need 2 times lower resonant frequency on primary then on secondary ,with no current flow in primary.  ;D
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 24, 2014, 10:31:19 PM

I used the latest setup (2x 200) with the 7nF's and added capacitors to the secondary untill the sec res freq was lowered to 13127Hz.
It toke 138nF to do so, so we now have a total of 145nF at the secondary.

But also the primary non-resonance dip traveled along downwards, so now at 13.127KHz both bulbs are equally lit, the output bulb
in resonance, the input bulb not at resonance.

So when we change the secondary resonance point by adding caps, we force the primary out of resonance at this point.

Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNJhpL8Dro&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu


Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 25, 2014, 01:43:26 AM
So when we change the secondary resonance point by adding caps, we force the primary out of resonance at this point.
Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNJhpL8Dro&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNJhpL8Dro&feature=youtu.be)
The tighter the magnetic coupling coefficient of the transformer, the closer these two frequencies influence and track each other.

Also, the mutual inductance "consumes" the free leakage inductance of each winding. If the magnetic coupling is 100% then there is no leakage inductance left over to participate in oscillations of any LC tanks (an ideal situation for a power supply transformers!). 

Finally, anything connected to the secondary of a 1:1 transformer with ideal coupling, appears as if it was connected in place of the primary winding, e.g.: any cap connected to the secondary acts as if it were connected in place of the primary winding.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 25, 2014, 09:01:17 AM

Thanks for this test, nothing special occurs here when two resonances meet. Very good that you actually could bring the second resonant frequency so close to first one.


Now it is time to wind turns around the toroid and see if there is lenzless effect in this setup. What would be correct number of turns ? There are two options. Option 1 is to wind enough turns so that primary blocks at second resonant frequency which was 62 kHz. Option 2 is to wind less turns and to make parallel LC circuit that would block at 62 kHz. I used both methods and result was better when I used capacitor. I got this effect only once as finding resonance is difficult for me with only 5 watt bulb as indicator.


In the pdf I listed effects regarding number of turns in the primary and in the secondary. These may or may not happen with your core itsu. I have only 80000 perm core while your core is 1000, so a huge difference.


I had also one small E-I ferrite core, permeability most likely below 5000. I got good results with that one and the reason is that there were three coils working together while in a toroid only two coils can work together. Two coils is enough to verify lenzless effect though.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 25, 2014, 10:51:25 AM

I have drilled five 4 mm holes in my nanoperm toroid so now it has ten coils working together. I was able to put 2*20 turns through each hole, all same direction, red and yellow wire. The primary is 24 turns. I put plastic straw inside the hole to protect the wires from scraping.


Drill blade was special, intended to drill holes in stone. Blade was made by company named Piranha. Blades that should drill hole in iron did not work very well. Steady pressure at low rpm and I got nice whole without damaging the core.


Picture quality is bad but could not do better, difficult to take picture because the manual switch in the cell phone that activates the camera is not fully working.


Next I will do some tests with this when I have time, should be interesting. Hopefully I can still find second resonant frequency.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 25, 2014, 11:08:17 AM

Ok, jack,

thanks for the pictures, but that seems to be a completely different ball game.

It does not look like anything that i have now.

What is the theory/idea behind this (the through hole coils)?


Anyway, i will try to wind a 3th coil around the core like you mention in the PDF and do some measurements.
But expect some questions on what/where to measure  :-)

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 25, 2014, 11:34:31 AM

Completely different, but the basic idea is the same: multiple closed magnetic circuits inside the core while primary is a solenoid. But in this case primary is also looped and those small secondary coils can loop also against primary so behavior might be different.


I wanted to put picture here showing that I am not here just for talk, now that I finally got the camera working :-)

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 25, 2014, 09:47:15 PM
Ok, Jack,
Thanks for the pictures, but that seems to be a completely different ball game.
What is the theory/idea behind this (the through hole coils)?
Yes, it is a different ball game but I have seen credible reports of success with it from experienced electronic engineers with good scopes, signal generators and power amplifiers. 
Allegedly a large nanocrystalline or amorphous metal core is required for this to work ( Nanoperm, Metglas, Finemet, Supermalloy, Supermendur, etc...). Obtaining the core is the biggest show stopper - the rest is easy.

The theory/idea behind this is in this patent (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/dlattach/attach/133978/).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 26, 2014, 09:18:27 AM
I got unexpected results. First I measured the resonant frequency of the yellow wire (1000 nf), it was about 1350 Hz. Next I measured the same for the red wire, it was about 1200 Hz. Slight difference here because one of the whole was not exactly in the middle. Then I measured resonance with 1000 nf in the red wire isolated in a tank circuit and another tank with yellow wire. It was still 1350 Hz ! Shorting the red wire had no effect. Then I cut red wire and connect only one coil with capacitor forming isolated LC, still no change. Finally reversed this so that primary was one coil red wire and secondary 5 coils of yellow wire and still no effect.


So, result was that there were no loops at all as I thought it would be. Just one loop around the core and no smaller loops.


Next I will make primary going horizontally and leave the small secondaries vertically. I will cut them and reconnect one at a time as polarities will change. If secondaries only want to loop around the core then they should not affect primary at all. Also each secondary should amplify other secondaries and each small primary should amplify other small primary coils. We will see.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 26, 2014, 09:45:11 AM
Yes, it is a different ball game but I have seen credible reports of success with it from experienced electronic engineers with good scopes, signal generators and power amplifiers. 
Allegedly a large nanocrystalline or amorphous metal core is required for this to work ( Nanoperm, Metglas, Finemet, Supermalloy, Supermendur, etc...). Obtaining the core is the biggest show stopper - the rest is easy.

The theory/idea behind this is in this patent (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/dlattach/attach/133978/).

Hmmmm,   a "solid state electric generator" he,  sounds interesting.
Seems that jack has already the main ingredients.

Square wave in, (in resonance), sine wave out?


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 26, 2014, 09:55:08 AM
I got unexpected results. First I measured the resonant frequency of the yellow wire (1000 nf), it was about 1350 Hz. Next I measured the same for the red wire, it was about 1200 Hz. Slight difference here because one of the whole was not exactly in the middle.........

So the holes needs to be centered in the middle to have symmetrical response.


I did the 3th coil yesterday, about 200 turns 0.4mm magnet wire like on the prim/sec.
Open ended it follows the resonance of the secondary (62KHz @ 5Vpp), but when terminating with a capacitor, it peaks (e.g. 75KHz with a 10 nF cap @110Vpp!!) on its own,  leaving the sec. res in place.
It tried to match the both resonances by manipulating the 3th coil cap, but its very picky, so need more time to experiment.


Regards Itsu



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 26, 2014, 11:09:04 PM

Here a video of the 3th coil (about 100 turns / 1 mH) when brought in resonance around 65KHz with 5.5nF capacity (190V pp).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be

The same as what was happening before with the prim/sec coils, now happens with the resonance of the secondary.
When this 3th coil hits resonance, the secondary bulb shows a dip meaning its pulled out of resonance.

Probably very well to be explained, so no abnormality as far as i know.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on February 27, 2014, 06:40:02 AM
Itsu:

I haven't followed the thread but I looked at your last clip and I think that I have an explanation for why the bulb dims.  It all goes back to the preconceived notion or prejudice that resonance must be doing something positive.  A wiser person will not make any assumptions when dealing with electronics.  What I am about to tell you was determined (a.k.a. 'discovered') on Conrad's series bifilar coil test thread.  Conrad may come back at a later date with more tests, to be determined.

The issue is what is really happening when the 3rd coil + cap is excited at its resonant frequency.  We can observe that the voltage across the coil reaches a maximum.  Therefore, by definition, the current through the coil also reaches a maximum 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage.  That means that the 3rd coil + cap when excited at the resonant frequency is becoming a huge power drain on the signal generator.  In fact, when you are at resonance, the 3rd coil + cap is acting as the heaviest possible load on the setup.  So, depending what your goals are, this could be a very bad thing.

This also explains the false 'delayed Lenz effect' where when you put a load across a pickup coil + cap that is tuned to the pulse motor magnet pass frequency.  In this setup, the pickup coil is draining the maximum electrical power and turning it into heat when it is running at resonance.   When you add a load resistor across the pickup coil on the pulse motor, the power being burned off in the pickup coil + cap + load resistor goes down in comparison to the pickup coil plus cap alone.  Hence the pulse motor speeds up.  There is no such thing as the 'delayed Lenz effect.'

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 27, 2014, 07:47:32 AM
Here a video of the 3th coil (about 100 turns / 1 mH) when brought in resonance around 65KHz with 5.5nF capacity (190V pp).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be)

The same as what was happening before with the prim/sec coils, now happens with the resonance of the secondary.
When this 3th coil hits resonance, the secondary bulb shows a dip meaning its pulled out of resonance.

Probably very well to be explained, so no abnormality as far as i know.

Regards Itsu



Thanks itsu, that was almost what I had in mind.


The 100 turn coil with cap should be the primary, one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap. Result should be that primary remains in resonance when power is taken.


If result is positive, then could try with bigger capacitors ?


I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 27, 2014, 10:18:04 AM

Played with the todoid having holes, again not what I expected but a learning experience still. I made two horizontal coils and used one as primary. Results were:


I got no light out of second primary. So no looping of magnetic current occurred.
I got light from secondaries that went through the same hole but no light from other secondaries.
When I took power, nothing still in other secondaries so no feedback occurred. Seems that in this case magnetic current wants only to go against magnetic current that created it. In the iron E-I core it wanted to loop through every route. Maybe it has something to do with shape of the core. I tried to push 100+ watts at high frequency and primary blocked everything above 5000 Hz. So it is not about core saturation.


Next test is the one I originally made the holes for. Five vertical coils, first in two parts so there will be two secondary coils. One will be just LC and the other will be output with cap and this matched for 'secondary' resonance. Primary all around circumference of the toroid, not diagonally through center. This will then be similar to case with E-I core, now five coils instead of three.


I will take picture if this shows anything special.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Farmhand on February 27, 2014, 11:11:34 AM
Itsu:

I haven't followed the thread but I looked at your last clip and I think that I have an explanation for why the bulb dims.  It all goes back to the preconceived notion or prejudice that resonance must be doing something positive.  A wiser person will not make any assumptions when dealing with electronics.  What I am about to tell you was determined (a.k.a. 'discovered') on Conrad's series bifilar coil test thread.  Conrad may come back at a later date with more tests, to be determined.

The issue is what is really happening when the 3rd coil + cap is excited at its resonant frequency.  We can observe that the voltage across the coil reaches a maximum.  Therefore, by definition, the current through the coil also reaches a maximum 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage.  That means that the 3rd coil + cap when excited at the resonant frequency is becoming a huge power drain on the signal generator.  In fact, when you are at resonance, the 3rd coil + cap is acting as the heaviest possible load on the setup.  So, depending what your goals are, this could be a very bad thing.

This also explains the false 'delayed Lenz effect' where when you put a load across a pickup coil + cap that is tuned to the pulse motor magnet pass frequency.  In this setup, the pickup coil is draining the maximum electrical power and turning it into heat when it is running at resonance.   When you add a load resistor across the pickup coil on the pulse motor, the power being burned off in the pickup coil + cap + load resistor goes down in comparison to the pickup coil plus cap alone.  Hence the pulse motor speeds up.  There is no such thing as the 'delayed Lenz effect.'

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

In all fairness MileHigh, I have been saying and showing (for almost 8 Months now) the acceleration under load effect or delayed Lenz effect is an effect of resonance and that it actually entails an increased Lenz effect that is decreased on load.

Speed up under load video  http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U&pi=4

Less input with added load video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxde9qga79c

I also explained the effect using the Tesla coils showing a decreased input under load well before the motor generator experiment.

There was no need for any fancy tests to see what was happening. No need for big coils with a lot of "impedance", the effect could be got with capacitors to get resonance or a harmonic to create a lot of activity in the "Tank" as a parasitic load, and limit the available output so the tank voltage would drop like a stone when loaded even moderately.

The trick to limiting losses in a "resonant" type system is to be able to de-tune the setup to almost no input when less (activity) power is required and "tune it in" when the greater activity is required. This is more practical in a solid state setup. The "Q" of the tank determines a lot the losses in a lightly loaded setup where the activity never gets to a significant energy "burn off point" due to the light load taking that energy.

..
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 27, 2014, 11:36:13 AM

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

Thanks MileHigh,

you got a way with words.....  i agree, its my feeling also, but you put it down very nicely.

I can try to "map" the currents involved and so confirm that this L3 is draining the energy from the resonating L2.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 27, 2014, 11:46:41 AM


Thanks itsu, that was almost what I had in mind.


The 100 turn coil with cap should be the primary, one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap. Result should be that primary remains in resonance when power is taken.


If result is positive, then could try with bigger capacitors ?


I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.

Ok Jack,

I missed that the L3 should be the primary, i can change that and feed the L3 with the FG.

I do have some problems with your "isolated tank".
I fact, none of the 3 coils is really isolated as all 3 are linked via the core.
On the other hand they are not direct connected to each other, so in that way they are all 3 isolated.
So perhaps you can rededine with what you mean by:
"one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap."

Thanks,  regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 27, 2014, 12:40:38 PM
Ok Jack,

I missed that the L3 should be the primary, i can change that and feed the L3 with the FG.

I do have some problems with your "isolated tank".
I fact, none of the 3 coils is really isolated as all 3 are linked via the core.
On the other hand they are not direct connected to each other, so in that way they are all 3 isolated.
So perhaps you can rededine with what you mean by:
"one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap."

Thanks,  regards Itsu



By 'isolated' I mean electrically isolated. There was no picture of this in the pdf, I realised later that results were little better with separate LC-circuit.


Looking at your latest vid, remove signal gen and bulb from one secondary so result is electrically isolated LC tank. Second secondary with bulb remains the same.


If possible, current and voltage readings would also be interesting to see in the isolated LC. That reactive power should be reflected to the other secondary. But does output bulb now reduce reactive power circulating in the isolated LC ?

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on February 28, 2014, 02:51:04 AM
Farmhand:

Yes, I recall your comments now.  Note that presentation and analysis of data is an important aspect of getting people's attention.  It's very rare that I watch YouTube clips nowadays, so I don't know if you crunched the numbers or not or just made an observation.  Conrad dropped the ball there in my opinion.  It looked pretty obvious that the total coil system dissipation went down when he added the load resistor, but it was Gyula that confirmed the observation by crunching the numbers about two weeks after the fact.  It's not my place to tell people what to do but that's my opinion.  What almost drives me crazy is when people make a clip where they do a verbal run-down of what the connections are.  They should make a schematic.  Perhaps it doesn't bother other people, I don't know.  But my eyes glaze over by the time you get to the verbal description of the fourth connection.

Itsu:

Thanks for your comments.  Please keep in mind when I post often I am thinking about the wider general audience so some comments are not necessarily specific to you.  For example, in many of your clips you measure the coil resistance and mention it.  You have a great testing setup and excellent bench skills.

Jack:

From page 2:

Quote
verpies: It most certainly is OU, but I have no meters so I cannot say how much.

Hold your horses!  Honestly, I have never seen an electronic circuit produce OU.  Coils are not OU.  Transformers are not OU.  Capacitors are not OU.  That doesn't mean that you still can't turn investigations into circuits into a great learning experience.  Note that Itsu has replicated many different OU candidate circuits and has not found OU in any of them.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on February 28, 2014, 03:14:04 AM
Jack:

Quote
I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.

I am not sure what you are talking about here.

The energy in a capacitor is 1/2*C*V*V.    "Q" is used for charge, not capacitance.   The energy crunches out to 99.3 micro-joules of energy.  That's what's circulating in the tank.  What do you mean when you say "12 watts," that doesn't make sense!  We are talking about energy in the tank, not power.

I know it's kind of politically incorrect to correct other people sometimes.  But if people don't correct each other then you have stagnation, and you end up spinning your wheels and making the same errors over and over.   My advice to you is to find a good YouTube channel for beginning electronics instruction.  Watch every clip in the channel until you get it.  Then move onto an intermediate YouTube channel for electronics instruction.

Please don't get offended, I am giving you sound advice.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on February 28, 2014, 04:12:30 AM
12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ?

Hey Jack

Is the light bulb in series with the cap and inductor, or in parallel?

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 28, 2014, 07:58:45 AM
Jack:

I am not sure what you are talking about here.

The energy in a capacitor is 1/2*C*V*V.    "Q" is used for charge, not capacitance.   The energy crunches out to 99.3 micro-joules of energy.  That's what's circulating in the tank.  What do you mean when you say "12 watts," that doesn't make sense!  We are talking about energy in the tank, not power.

I know it's kind of politically incorrect to correct other people sometimes.  But if people don't correct each other then you have stagnation, and you end up spinning your wheels and making the same errors over and over.   My advice to you is to find a good YouTube channel for beginning electronics instruction.  Watch every clip in the channel until you get it.  Then move onto an intermediate YouTube channel for electronics instruction.

Please don't get offended, I am giving you sound advice.

MileHigh


Ups, I mixed Q with C and dropped the 1/2. Ok, so 99.3 micro joules of energy. This bounces 2*62000 times back and forth via inductor in LC circuit during one second, about 12 joules. I recall that one joule is one watt for one second, so isn't this then 12 watts for one second ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on February 28, 2014, 08:12:58 AM
Hey Jack

Is the light bulb in series with the cap and inductor, or in parallel?

Mags


I think itsu put the bulb in series but it was not shown in the video. Q-factor depends on the inductive reactance divided by DC resistance of the coil. If we put load there, then it will also increase DC resistance, which decreases Q-factor and hence drops voltage. Not sure but this would make sense.


The inductance of the 100 turn coil was 1 micro henry, to resonate this at 62 kHz there would have to be over 6500 nf worth of capacitors, but 5.5 nf was sufficient. I am now puzzled why. When this coil is used as primary then to resonate it at 62 kHz more caps are needed. Maybe easier to put 220 nf in the secondaries, measure resonant frequency of that and then match the primary to that frquency.


BTW, inductance of those two 200 turn secondary coils combined was about 0.4 mH. itsu, what is the core area dimension ? We know that core has 1000 permeability, now I am thinking would this 0.4 mH be inductance of solenoid of the same size. Looped flux is cancelled but solenoid flux still left ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 28, 2014, 10:24:21 AM

I think itsu put the bulb in series but it was not shown in the video. Q-factor depends on the inductive reactance divided by DC resistance of the coil. If we put load there, then it will also increase DC resistance, which decreases Q-factor and hence drops voltage. Not sure but this would make sense.


The inductance of the 100 turn coil was 1 micro henry, to resonate this at 62 kHz there would have to be over 6500 nf worth of capacitors, but 5.5 nf was sufficient. I am now puzzled why. When this coil is used as primary then to resonate it at 62 kHz more caps are needed. Maybe easier to put 220 nf in the secondaries, measure resonant frequency of that and then match the primary to that frquency.


BTW, inductance of those two 200 turn secondary coils combined was about 0.4 mH. itsu, what is the core area dimension ? We know that core has 1000 permeability, now I am thinking would this 0.4 mH be inductance of solenoid of the same size. Looped flux is cancelled but solenoid flux still left ?


Jack,

be aware that the L3 coil is 1mH as in milli,  not micro!

As for the core area dimension, see here (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg388999/#msg388999) where it says:

Quote
the od (65mm), the id (40mm), the thickness (9mm)

I made a video of some current / voltage measurements on this 3 coil setup, but need some time to comment in it, will be up later today.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 28, 2014, 01:31:58 PM
Ups, I mixed Q with C and dropped the 1/2. Ok, so 99.3 micro joules of energy. This bounces 2*62000 times back and forth via inductor in LC circuit during one second, about 12 joules.
You are ignoring the direction (sign) of energy flow (a.k.a. power).

I recall that one joule is one watt for one second, so isn't this then 12 watts for one second ?
Rather it is 99μJ per 8μs (½ period of oscillation) which is equivalent to +12.3Watts for ½ cycle of the oscillation ...and 0Watts for 1 full oscillation.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 28, 2014, 01:33:58 PM
Ok,

i made some voltage/current measurements on this 3 coil setup, in which we have much voltage/current running around in the L3 tank coil, but because the voltage/current is out of phase they do not exceed the input power from the FG.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEFILwZ10Y&feature=youtu.be

Next i will use the L3 as primary and make some measurements that way.

Regards itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 28, 2014, 01:38:49 PM
.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 28, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 28, 2014, 02:49:29 PM
I made some voltage/current measurements on this 3 coil setup,
If this large 3rd coil was physically rotated 90º so it would be encompassing both the primary and the secondary windings, then you would be able to detect the induction caused by the leakage flux spilling out of the core.  The more current flows in secondary, the more voltage is induced in this 3rd winding. 
It is just a neat trick to detect how much flux leaks out of a transformer's core.  It has a large educational value.

P.S.
As always, the even number of layers of back&forth winding rule designed for pitch-current nullification, applies to all windings.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 28, 2014, 04:30:57 PM
but because the voltage/current is out of phase they do not exceed the input power from the FG.
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEFILwZ10Y&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEFILwZ10Y&feature=youtu.be)
It is interesting to watch the red math trace (power) on this video as you adjust the frequency.
Sometimes most of this waveform is above the X-axis* and sometimes it is below it.
Anything above the X-axis means that energy is flowing from the signal generator to the device under test (DUT)
...and anything below the X-axis means, that the DUT is returning energy to the signal generator.

The total area taken by the red power waveform above/below the X-axis, means the amount of energy that has been transferred. 

For example:
On the scopeshot below it can be seen that the blue areas are greater than the yellow areas, despite that the red waveform has 4x higher amplitude above the X-axis than below it. 
For this scopeshot, this means that more energy is returned to the power supply than taken from it.


*the X-axis is denoted by the red channel zero-marker at the left margin of the scope's screen
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on February 28, 2014, 04:57:48 PM

Quote
...and anything below the X-axis means, that the DUT is returning energy to the signal generator.

like negative resistance, a negistor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWUxEtUd3Ow&list=UUdJ2A-075yx9y4bKqu_8Q8A&feature=c4-overview)?

Or do we have here a severe case of reactive power versus real power?
Guess that the returning energy never will be more then half of the total energy

Thanks,  regards itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on February 28, 2014, 05:09:30 PM
like negative resistance, a negistor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWUxEtUd3Ow&list=UUdJ2A-075yx9y4bKqu_8Q8A&feature=c4-overview)?
No, no ...more like a charged capacitor discharging itself back into the signal generator.
Inductors can do it, too.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 01, 2014, 01:34:04 AM
If this large 3rd coil was physically rotated 90º so it would be encompassing both the primary and the secondary windings, then you would be able to detect the induction caused by the leakage flux spilling out of the core.  The more current flows in secondary, the more voltage is induced in this 3rd winding. 
It is just a neat trick to detect how much flux leaks out of a transformer's core.  It has a large educational value.

P.S.
As always, the even number of layers of back&forth winding rule designed for pitch-current nullification, applies to all windings.

I think a better way to measure the field leakage of a toroid core in operation would be to us a coil that I added to the pic you posted above.  It should not be in direct physical contact with the toroid windings or core.   

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: dieter on March 01, 2014, 01:52:05 AM
So, Verpies, let me get this straight, the scope shot says "OU"?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 01, 2014, 10:26:34 AM
I think a better way to measure the field leakage of a toroid core in operation would be to us a coil that I added to the pic you posted above.  It should not be in direct physical contact with the toroid windings or core.   
Yes, this will work. too and it will avoid capacitive coupling.

Alternatively, such leakage detecting coil can be placed inside the toroid's hole (please make a pic of that configuration, too, for completeness and for the future).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 01, 2014, 10:30:52 AM
So, Verpies, let me get this straight, the scope shot says "OU"?
Yes, if it was a scopeshot of input power to some device under test, that had no other power supply.
Unfortunately, it is not a scopeshot of input power :(

I posted this scopeshot so other users would learn to look at the areas of the power waveform above and below the X-axis, and not at the amplitude of this waveform.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 01, 2014, 03:18:35 PM
Yes, this will work. too and it will avoid capacitive coupling.

Alternatively, such leakage detecting coil can be placed inside the toroid's hole (please make a pic of that configuration, too, for completeness and for the future).

Hey Verpies

Well, in the toroids hole, that is where all the action is. ;)   It might seem like leakage, but that is where the fields propagate from a primary to a secondary.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 01, 2014, 08:59:51 PM


By 'isolated' I mean electrically isolated. There was no picture of this in the pdf, I realised later that results were little better with separate LC-circuit.


Looking at your latest vid, remove signal gen and bulb from one secondary so result is electrically isolated LC tank. Second secondary with bulb remains the same.


If possible, current and voltage readings would also be interesting to see in the isolated LC. That reactive power should be reflected to the other secondary. But does output bulb now reduce reactive power circulating in the isolated LC ?


Ok,  back to the thread from Jack, i have removed the input bulb, and connected the FG to the L3 making it the primary coil as requested above.

We see no resonance peak in the Primary (L3) other then the V and I phases get lined up at the 65KHz mark which had a 185V peak yesterday.
We see a minor resonance peak of the left bulbless secondary around 85KHz and an even more smaller resonance peak at that same frequency for the
right secondary with bulb.

Severall voltage and current measurements where taken.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkdTL7vk_nU&feature=youtu.be

When removing capacitance on the L3 primary coil (till 3.5nF) causing it to resonate around 85KHz (secondary resonance frequency) starts the circus
again of peaking and dipping at resonance as we have seen before on the other coils when trying to match the resonance frequencies (not on video).


All very well explainable behaviour IMHO.


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 02, 2014, 06:56:44 AM
Itsu:

Thanks for some more great clips.  I think one of the big teaching things in those clips is to sweep the excitation frequency and then observe the amplitudes and phase relationships of the resultant waveforms.  Also, this should always be done with a sine wave and never be done with a square wave.

All:

I think another thing worth considering before making measurements is the architecture of the magnetic setup.  The merits or lack of merits should be discussed.  There is always the hope for the "secret sauce" and nobody can stop you from pursuing your tests with whatever configuration you want.  But at the same time, basic magnetic fundamentals should always be part of the discussion.

The setup has L1 typically as the input coil wrapped around the left half of the toroid.  Then you have L2 typically as the output coil wrapped around the right half of the toroid.  Then you have L3 wrapped around the entire toroid.

If L1 is connected to the function generator and L2 is connected to a load, then the toroid is acting like a regular transformer core and AC power flows from the function generator to the load.  In this case L3 sees "clockwise" flux through the bottom part of the toroid and "counter-clockwise" flux through the top part of the toroid.  The net flux that L3 sees is zero.  In the real world we know that there will not be perfect flux cancellation and as a result a very tiny net flux will be picked up by L3.

So in essence L3 is a "nonsense" coil that is illogically placed and does not really contribute to the operation of the magnetic circuit.  Similarly, when you connect the signal generator to L3 then the toroid sort of acts like a cylindrical core for L3.  In this case L1 and L2 will barely pick up a signal either, they are stuck in magnetic limbo.  It's only when you hit a resonance frequency can the feeble signals going into L1 and L2 start to show any amplitude.  But of course it is a "phantom resonance amplitude" because there is no usable AC power to speak of.

I am assuming that most or all of you were aware of this.  You see nonsensical magnetic configurations all the time on the forums.  Some people may not be aware of this.  To help them they should be pointed to some good instructional YouTube clips or a good web site, etc.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 02, 2014, 11:50:25 AM
Well, in the toroids hole, that is where all the action is. ;)   It might seem like leakage, but that is where the fields propagate from a primary to a secondary.  ;)
I am familiar with Distinti's works.
If his theory is correct then the voltage induced in the center solenoid will be independent from the load/current flowing in the secondary.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 02, 2014, 01:09:03 PM

Ok,  back to the thread from Jack, i have removed the input bulb, and connected the FG to the L3 making it the primary coil as requested above.

We see no resonance peak in the Primary (L3) other then the V and I phases get lined up at the 65KHz mark which had a 185V peak yesterday.
We see a minor resonance peak of the left bulbless secondary around 85KHz and an even more smaller resonance peak at that same frequency for the
right secondary with bulb.

Severall voltage and current measurements where taken.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkdTL7vk_nU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkdTL7vk_nU&feature=youtu.be)

When removing capacitance on the L3 primary coil (till 3.5nF) causing it to resonate around 85KHz (secondary resonance frequency) starts the circus
again of peaking and dipping at resonance as we have seen before on the other coils when trying to match the resonance frequencies (not on video).


All very well explainable behaviour IMHO.


Regards Itsu



How L3 was wound ? It seems as it were wound over empty spot between secondaries. I placed it in the middle of both coils, also at the start of both coils worked. Both seem to give same results. But it should not be placed over both coils in the same half of the toroid, or in the empty spot.


You have M-088 as I do, that's good. You can do exactly same test I did. I think you could start at much lower number of turns and thicker wire as you can go above audio frequencies. Wire does not need to be enamelled. If you put the L3 in the middle of secondaries, then setup matches mine. 30 volt input should be better than 20 volt input.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 02, 2014, 01:39:48 PM
Thanks MileHigh,  once again, a good explaination, very usefull.




How L3 was wound ? It seems as it were wound over empty spot between secondaries. I placed it in the middle of both coils, also at the start of both coils worked. Both seem to give same results. But it should not be placed over both coils in the same half of the toroid, or in the empty spot.


You have M-088 as I do, that's good. You can do exactly same test I did. I think you could start at much lower number of turns and thicker wire as you can go above audio frequencies. Wire does not need to be enamelled. If you put the L3 in the middle of secondaries, then setup matches mine. 30 volt input should be better than 20 volt input.

Jack, ok,  yes i have the present L3 inbetween the empty spot between secondaries.

Having the nanoperm cores i tried to setup like you mentioned here (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg389355/#msg389355) which states:

Quote
I used 1000 nf caps, about 80 turns of 0.31 mm wire and permeability of M88 is 80000.

Will the red L3 as shown in the picture below represent what you mean?
If so, how many turns?  Also 80 like the others?

According to this website: http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm  the both coils on the nanoperm core should resonate at 184Hz with the given data.
When measuring mines the current in the both coils flatlines (and change phase position) around 140Hz, no real peak though.

 
Regards itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 02, 2014, 03:15:53 PM
Thanks MileHigh,  once again, a good explaination, very usefull.


Jack, ok,  yes i have the present L3 inbetween the empty spot between secondaries.

Having the nanoperm cores i tried to setup like you mentioned here (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg389355/#msg389355) which states:

Will the red L3 as shown in the picture below represent what you mean?
If so, how many turns?  Also 80 like the others?

According to this website: http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm (http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm)  the both coils on the nanoperm core should resonate at 184Hz with the given data.
When measuring mines the current in the both coils flatlines (and change phase position) around 140Hz, no real peak though.

 
Regards itsu


I used 90 turns, but I think 1:1 ratio is ok so use 80. Here is a picture of mine, where I used caduceous type winding as a secondary. It gave little bit different results, no need for you to change to caduceous windings though.


Secondary resonance should be around 10-11 kHz in your system.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 02, 2014, 03:56:08 PM
Here is a picture of mine, where I used caduceous type winding as a secondary.
Oh, so the 3rd winding is placed as depicted in this diagram (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg390071/#msg390071) of "flux leakage detector".  That makes a big difference.

If you want to minimize capacitive coupling put some spacers between the green winding and red windings (cardboard and several layers of plastic tape is fine).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 02, 2014, 06:46:50 PM

Ok, just to be complete and to finish the normal ferrite setup, i have removed the L3 coil and set it up as done by Jack and as shown by verpies (90° off from where it was).
Inductance still measures around 1mH.

Then i sweeped this L3 from 800Hz til 100MHz monitoring the input (FG) voltage and current and the voltage from both secondaries.

No real resonance points are seen anymore.
I see a input voltage/current sync (in phase) around 5.6MHz!! at which point also the current swaps from leading to trailing the voltage.
Guess this is the series resonance point of L3 (minimum impedance/ minimum voltage).

After that i see a slight resonance point (2v pp) on mainly the left secondary (without the bulb) around 37MHz!!

Guess that MileHigh is "dead on" with his statement here (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg390377/#msg390377) where it says:


Quote
In this case L3 sees "clockwise" flux through the bottom part of the toroid and "counter-clockwise" flux through the top part of the toroid. 
The net flux that L3 sees is zero. 
In the real world we know that there will not be perfect flux cancellation and as a result a very tiny net flux will be picked up by L3.

So in essence L3 is a "nonsense" coil that is illogically placed and does not really contribute to the operation of the magnetic circuit. 
Similarly, when you connect the signal generator to L3 then the toroid sort of acts like a cylindrical core for L3. 
In this case L1 and L2 will barely pick up a signal either, they are stuck in magnetic limbo. 
It's only when you hit a resonance frequency can the feeble signals going into L1 and L2 start to show any amplitude. 
But of course it is a "phantom resonance amplitude" because there is no usable AC power to speak of.
 
 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjsc7SZCx4&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 02, 2014, 07:39:34 PM
In this case L3 sees "clockwise" flux through the bottom part of the toroid and "counter-clockwise" flux through the top part of the toroid.  The net flux that L3 sees is zero.
Yes, unless the flux leaves the core.
e.g. this leakage flux will induce voltage in L3 when the L2 counter-current becomes high (as when L2 is shorted).

So in essence L3 is a "nonsense" coil that is illogically placed and does not really contribute to the operation of the magnetic circuit. 
Similarly, when you connect the signal generator to L3 then the toroid sort of acts like a cylindrical core for L3. 
In this case L1 and L2 will barely pick up a signal either, they are stuck in magnetic limbo. 
L3 might not contribute but it does affect the energy transfer between L1 and L2.
If you'd apply a saturating DC to L3 (through a choke in series) then you'd see how the transformer action is affected between L1 and L2 over one polarity of the input AC cycle (the polarity which exacerbates core saturation).

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 02, 2014, 08:57:59 PM
L3 might not contribute but it does affect the energy transfer between L1 and L2.
If you'd apply a saturating DC to L3 (through a choke in series) then you'd see how the transformer action is affected between L1 and L2 over one polarity of the input AC cycle (the polarity which exacerbates core saturation).

But as we have no transformer action going between L1 and L2 (the 2 200 turn coils), this can not been checked.
Or do you mean when also injecting a signal in L1?

Regards Itsu
 
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 02, 2014, 09:32:38 PM
In the last experiment you drove the L3, so indeed direct transformer action between L1 and L2 is not applicable.
However, if L3 is driven hard enough so the current through L3 is sufficiently high to cause saturation of the core, then its differential permeability will be modulated and any LC tanks formed by L1 or L2 will be excited parametrically by the varying inductances of L1 and L2.

Nontheless, if the L1 is driven with AC then a transformer action will exist and when a saturating DC is applied to L3 (through a choke in series) then it will affect the AC power transfer from L1 to L2 through the modulation of differential permeability and the magnetic coupling coefficient.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 02, 2014, 10:27:28 PM
In the last experiment you drove the L3, so indeed direct transformer action between L1 and L2 is not applicable.
However, if L3 is driven hard enough so the current through L3 is sufficiently high to cause saturation of the core, then its differential permeability will be modulated and any LC tanks formed by L1 or L2 will be excited parametrically by the varying inductances of L1 and L2.


Ok,  i put in more power into this L3 coil using my MOSFET power amp., and it now shows the resonances of the secondary coils again around 85KHz.

Not sure if it has saturated the core, but allthough the PA and transformer used are not designed for 85KHz, it made the resonance of the secondary coils reappear again.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41eEfFJMd0Y&feature=youtu.be


Regards itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 02, 2014, 10:46:32 PM
Am I missing something. Jacks last pic posted, seems to have bifi windings for 1 and 2, but I only see single wire on Itsu coil posted just before that.  ???

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 02, 2014, 10:59:50 PM
Am I missing something. Jacks last pic posted, seems to have bifi windings for 1 and 2, but I only see single wire on Itsu coil posted just before that.  ???

Mags

I noticed that too, there are way more loose wire ends then can be accounted for for only 3 coils  :o

Guess Jack is way ahead of me with his coils.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 03, 2014, 03:03:57 AM
Here are some variations from the Utkin page.

About 3/4 down the page. 
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/VladimirUtkin.pdf

It seems you can try some of the things described with what you have, and if you want to try the others. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 03, 2014, 06:51:14 AM
Am I missing something. Jacks last pic posted, seems to have bifi windings for 1 and 2, but I only see single wire on Itsu coil posted just before that.  ???

Mags


No problem, this was experimental setup and coils were caduceus. So I could test plain coils, series caduceus, coils in series from both halves etc. All had the same effect, only the resonance point changed.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 03, 2014, 07:08:53 AM
Itsu:

Thanks again for your ongoing testing.

Transformers can be modeled where you include parasitic capacitances and inductances.  The model can get very "deep" where you keep on adding parasitic components of smaller and smaller values that only come into play at higher and higher frequencies.  The model for the transformer ends up looking like a quite complex schematic diagram.  I stumbled across a great one once but the link is long lost.  These parasitics can explain the resonant peaks at high frequencies.

This looks like a pretty good link and I screen capped a graphic of a transformer from the link with the first-level parasitic components in the circuit model.

http://www.chooseindia.com/engineering/Understanding-Transformers.htm

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 03, 2014, 08:03:32 AM

Core needs to be pushed hard with amps, frequency or number of turns. I made one test where I put step up transformer in front, ratio was something like 1:10 or 1:15. No idea really, it was caduceus primary (2*14 meters 0.31mm wire for secondary) and caduceus secondary about 2*20 turns, but did not count the turns for secondary when I made it. Anyway, result was that I did not get output halogens to light up anymore. In another test I used 25 turns for L3 (no step up) and again no light in the output, did not have resonance in L3 though so it leaked power. With 90 turns L3 it worked even without capacitor in L3. 90 turns was enough to block current at 11 kHz where the resonance of the L2's were in my nanoperm setup. Was not able to test effect of frequency, but it should be obvious that frequency affects too.


The whole idea here is to create two opposing magnetic currents/fluxes/'what ever you think there occurs in the core when coil is energized', which then amplify each other. The secondary resonance I discovered by accident. When resonance is in place, then trying to increase power in the source (crank up the volume knob) beyond blocking level of L3 has no effect. If L3 is monitored and power is taken then it should have no effect in the L3 because it sees two opposing 'thingies'. For example try shorting the output L2 with the bulb (bypass only the bulb with wire so result is LC-tank), or leave L2 with the bulb unconnected.


Ferrite E-I gave almost the same level of results, there I had to use 200 turns in every coil. With 50 turns I could barely light up output halogen and input side leaked power, did not know about resonance at this time though. I had three L2 secondaries and middle of the ferrite had the isolated LC tank. When I had 200 turn coils I knew about secondary resonance, haven't tried resonance using 50 turns and most likely I never will. I tested E-I also with two L2s having 200 turns (middle coil was unused) but I got no light in the output. I did not test if there occurred power transfer from left L2 to right L2. Most likely not because test with nanoperm with holes in it did not have power transfer in similar setup.


Now with core having 1000 permeability, 100 turn L3 does not block without capacitor. Or this really needs high permeability core to work with two L2 coils.



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 03, 2014, 08:51:55 AM

If parallel LC-circuit blocks certain frequency, does it mean that core is saturated when this resonance occurs ?


If not, then L3 needs to be done so that it blocks current flow at the secondary resonance frequency and only then capacitor can be used to for matching resonance in L3. This is how I obtained turns to use in L3, had resonance in L3 only once though.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 03, 2014, 11:26:14 AM
If parallel LC-circuit blocks certain frequency, does it mean that core is saturated when this resonance occurs ?
No, but if saturation does happen then it will increase this resonance frequency.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 03, 2014, 06:56:39 PM
The theory/idea behind this is in this patent (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/dlattach/attach/133978/).
Hmmmm,   a "solid state electric generator" he,  sounds interesting.  Seems that jack has already the main ingredients.
Square wave in, (in resonance), sine wave out?

Regards Itsu
Yes, but it can also be a saw/triangle/sine wave in, sine wave out, because the primary LC tank will create a sine wave out of anything at the input of this generator anyway.

The whole Gunderson generator can be put into a large pot-core (http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/251045973233_1_0_1/1000x1000.jpg) in order to close the magnetic flux paths as illustrated below.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 03, 2014, 10:32:05 PM
Yes, but it can also be a saw/triangle/sine wave in, sine wave out, because the primary LC tank will create a sine wave out of anything at the input of this generator anyway.

The whole Gunderson generator can be put into a large pot-core (http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/251045973233_1_0_1/1000x1000.jpg) in order to close the magnetic flux paths as illustrated below.

Thanks, nice drawings, but looking at the size of the pot-core, this will be miniature / precision work.

Regards Itsu

 
 
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 03, 2014, 10:36:59 PM
The whole idea here is to create two opposing magnetic currents/fluxes/'what ever you think there occurs in the core when coil is energized', which then amplify each other.

"amplify each other", well normally you need input for something to amplify, so i am still not sure how this should work.

Anyway, i finished the 3 coil setup on the nanoperm core, any suggestions on how/what to connect to fullfill the above situation?
Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbqDckFNtSg&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 03, 2014, 11:08:11 PM
looking at the size of the pot-core, this will be miniature / precision work.
I wonder what is the largest pot-core available commercially without custom manufacturing. 150mm diameter would be nice...

Does anyone besides Itsu wants to contribute and search the net for it?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 04, 2014, 12:05:28 AM
I wonder what is the largest pot-core available commercially without custom manufacturing. 150mm diameter would be nice...

Does anyone besides Itsu wants to contribute and search the net for it?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313&_nkw=ferrite+pot+core&_sacat=0&_from=R40

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=ferrite+e+core&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC1.A0.H0.Xferrite+transformer+core&_nkw=ferrite+transformer+core&_sacat=0

Also, look on Alibaba for a Chinese connection ;D , where some companies will send samples. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 04, 2014, 09:15:38 AM
Also, look on Alibaba for a Chinese connection ;D , where some companies will send samples. ;)
Thanks, but those links do not answer the question what is the largest pot core out there.
That would require looking through a lot of commercial offers - a time consuming process.

e.g.: Page 26 of this catalog (http://www.lodestonepacific.com/distrib/pdfs/Magnetics/Pot_RS_DS_Cores.pdf) shows a 45mm OD pot-core.  Where are yet larger pot-cores available ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 04, 2014, 10:41:21 AM
Verpies,

Over at OUR in a private group there was already some research done on pot-cores, and it turned out that the larges
pot-core found then was od 47mm, see 3th link:

http://www.mag-inc.com/home/Advanced-Search-Results?pn=44229

http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/pcore.htm

http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/FerPotC/FerPotC-1.html

http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category/74

http://www.fair-rite.com/cgibin/catalog.pgm?THEAPPL=Inductive+Components&THEWHERE=Closed+Magnetic+Circuit&THEPART=Pot+Cores#select:freq1
 
Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: gyulasun on March 04, 2014, 01:01:02 PM
Here is a 70 x 42mm pot core at ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/P7042-Siemens-70x42mm-Large-PM-POT-Ferrite-Core-AL-1000-B65696-L1000-A27-1set-/370820982396 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/P7042-Siemens-70x42mm-Large-PM-POT-Ferrite-Core-AL-1000-B65696-L1000-A27-1set-/370820982396)

from this site it seems the OD 114mm is / was the highest pot size (but other manufacturers may have produced bigger):

http://ferrite.ru/en/products_en/epcos_en/pm_en/

Gyula
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 04, 2014, 02:16:25 PM
Over at OUR in a private group there was already some research done on pot-cores, and it turned out that the larges
pot-core found then was od 47mm, see 3th link:
I was hoping that someone else would invest their time in searching for a large pot cores besides you.
Anyway the largest one I was able to find so far was 150mm OD.  See here (http://www.epcos.com/inf/80/db/fer_13/pch_150_30.pdf).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 04, 2014, 03:29:32 PM
"amplify each other", well normally you need input for something to amplify, so i am still not sure how this should work.

Anyway, i finished the 3 coil setup on the nanoperm core, any suggestions on how/what to connect to fullfill the above situation?
Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbqDckFNtSg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbqDckFNtSg&feature=youtu.be)

Regards Itsu



Do the same test as you did last with 2*200 turn ferrite ring:


Feed the L3 with your signal generator.
One secondary L2 is electrically isolated LC and on the other LC you connect load bulb same as before.


Can you see secondary resonance occurring ? If not, then power amp is needed to drive L3. Secondary resonance did not occur with 2*200 setup without power amp, so maybe this thing needs amps and not volts to drive it. Would make sense as amps are needed to magnetize core.


If L3 is without a cap, then does it block current at secondary resonance (which should be around 10 kHz with this setup) ?
If it does not block then resonant cap is needed in L3 to drop current consumption. 90 turns L3 blocked in my setup, and resonant cap improved the output power.


If cap is not used, then current consumption in L3 should not change when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?
If resonant cap is placed in L3 (tuned to found secondary resonance), then resonance in L3 should remain when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?


It would be interesting to see what happens in the isolated LC at secondary resonance with this setup, with and without load.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: tak22 on March 04, 2014, 06:11:40 PM
oops. drink coffee, then post. sorry I see you already found the EPCOS.


EPCOS makes pot cores up to 150mm, but I'm not sure the geometry is exactly what you need?


Search for part # B65949A0000X027


tak
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 04, 2014, 11:21:32 PM


Do the same test as you did last with 2*200 turn ferrite ring:


Feed the L3 with your signal generator.
One secondary L2 is electrically isolated LC and on the other LC you connect load bulb same as before.


Can you see secondary resonance occurring ? If not, then power amp is needed to drive L3. Secondary resonance did not occur with 2*200 setup without power amp, so maybe this thing needs amps and not volts to drive it. Would make sense as amps are needed to magnetize core.


If L3 is without a cap, then does it block current at secondary resonance (which should be around 10 kHz with this setup) ?
If it does not block then resonant cap is needed in L3 to drop current consumption. 90 turns L3 blocked in my setup, and resonant cap improved the output power.


If cap is not used, then current consumption in L3 should not change when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?
If resonant cap is placed in L3 (tuned to found secondary resonance), then resonance in L3 should remain when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?


It would be interesting to see what happens in the isolated LC at secondary resonance with this setup, with and without load.

I did not have much time for testing, but i managed to do the first setup like mentioned above.

L3 has the FG input, and it seems that the both secondaries resonante at 4.8KHz.

The current in the left secondary stays stable, so nothing is blocked.

So the next step would be to have L3 resonate using a capacitor on this 4.8KHz, to see what happens with the current,  right?

 
Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 05, 2014, 08:05:59 AM
I did not have much time for testing, but i managed to do the first setup like mentioned above.

L3 has the FG input, and it seems that the both secondaries resonante at 4.8KHz.

The current in the left secondary stays stable, so nothing is blocked.

So the next step would be to have L3 resonate using a capacitor on this 4.8KHz, to see what happens with the current,  right?

 
Regards Itsu



By blocking I meant blocking of primary, the L3.


Yes, resonate L3 using a capacitor on 4.8 kHz. If possible, try also putting input signal through power amp. My reasoning here is that according to verpies at resonance core is not necessarily saturated if drive current is too low. For example 4.8 kHz at 5 A/5V has much more effect on the core compared to 4.8 kHz at 50 mA/500 V. Which I think is weird but so it seems to be.


4.8 kHz is way below what I got ( about 11 kHz), there are two differences compared to my setup. I used 0.31 mm wire and you used 0.4 mm wire. Second difference is that I used two wires side by side, a bifilar test coil, with one coil unused so wires were further apart. These might explain the difference. No need to change anything in current setup, just wanted to mention this.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 05, 2014, 04:22:13 PM
according to verpies at resonance core is not necessarily saturated if drive current is too low.
That's true for a series LC circuit.
For parallel LC circuit, the drive current can be low but the LC circulation current can be high.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 06, 2014, 12:01:39 AM

Ok,  i tried severall things as requested, but it does not stay stable.
Whenever i change something in a coil, the other coils are out of their resonance.

When doing a resonance test for one of the secondary coils (feeding a signal in from L3), i HAVE to disconnect the cap from the other secondary.
It then shows correct resonance as compared to a resonance calculator on the web (around 157Hz).

But when hooking up again the other cap, the resonance frequency shoots up to 6.6KHz.

Same when i hook up a bulb in the right secondary, it changes the left secondary resonance once again to 4.8KHz, while the resonance of the right secondary
which contains the bulb now shoots up to 11KHz judging at the peak light in the bulb.

In this last situation we have different resonance frequencies between the both secondary coils.
When i now also add some capacitance to L3, the circus is changing once again

I feel like the guy in the drawing

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vat5Z9gfuwM&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 06, 2014, 01:17:17 AM
That's true for a series LC circuit.
For parallel LC circuit, the drive current can be low but the LC circulation current can be high.

So maybe try to put the 2 coils wound on each side of the core in series with 1 cap, or a cap on each connection(should be the same thing if the 2 caps were 2 times the uf as the 1 cap).

Connections of the coils may have to be tried in reverse if nothing happens.

Then instead of trying to load one of the 2 coils, wind a 4th coil(3rd being the outer coil as shown earlier) and try loading that when the 1 and 2 coils, really 1 bigger coil, are in resonance.
Loading the 4th coil will change the resonant freq, so once a load is chosen, adjust the freq in accordingly for that load.

3 ways to wind the 4th coil

1  wind it in either area where coils 1 and 2 are not, the open spaces between 1 and 2, and test.

2  wind 2 coils, each on top of 1 and 2 coils, then series them to be 1 coil, and test

3  add an additional core to the winding in way 1.  We use another core(doesnt have to be the same as the main core) where we wind the wire through the main core and through the second core. So through main core, through second core, through the main core and through the second core till done. Space the second core a bit, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 in. from the main core, in a position that makes what looks like a figure 8 or a snow man.  ;D   The addition of the second core to the 4th winding will allow the 4th coil to be loaded without disturbing the resonance of coils 1 and 2.   ;)


I would go for way 3 , as I think loading any coil on the main core will kill resonance of the resonating coils. ;)   We all know that there appears to be more going on in resonance compared to the input. The trouble is extracting that larger energy. Seems no matter what we do, loading kills off the resonance or alters the freq drastically and the freq would have to change with varying loads. But if we can extract without killing the resonance, then that is the path I would take. ;)

Ive tested the multi core described in  the PDF "Classic Flux Anomaly" I presented earlier, no resonance based tests at the time, and when loading the secondary that has 2 magnetic circuits, the idle primary input is reduced as compared to no loading of the secondary. Loading the secondary increases the inductance of the primary, which is opposite of what we are used to. ;)

In the pdf it states that loading the secondary doesnt kill the primary if in resonance. It may change the primary freq due to increasing the primary inductance, not sure. Havnt gotten to try that part yet. Plan to.  ;)

Mags

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 06, 2014, 03:31:31 AM
Something to add here.

The multi core transformer, 1 primary on the main core, and the secondary looped through the main core and a second core, loading the secondary does lower the input in reference to primary idle current. But the PDF states that you wont get more out than in, even under the extraordinary conditions it provides. 

The possible key here is extracting from that larger elevation of the resonance. Many say that there is elevation in activity at resonance, but extracting it is problematic. 

Well, Im thinking this dual core is the way to go.  ;)


Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 06, 2014, 04:39:54 AM
Itsu:

I may have the beginnings of the answer to the mystery of why the resonance frequency jumps up so high when you are driving both secondary tank circuits.  It's an incomplete answer and I am feeling my limitations.  (I think I just figured out the key clue, you may be able to confirm it for yourself.)

For starters we know that the angular resonance frequency of an LC tank circuit is 1/Sqrt(LC).

Since the resonance frequency jumps up very high when you connect the two separate series tank circuits, let's make the assumption that the effective L decreases dramatically when both tank circuits are connected.

Now here is a thought experiment:  Remove both capacitors and drive the setup through L3 like normal.  We now have a transformer setup with L1 and L2 as secondaries, with a "bizarre" core that resembles a "cylinder" inside the L3 coil.  The "top" of the "cylinder" is the upper exposed blue toroid.  The "bottom" of the "cylinder" is the lower exposed blue toroid.  Lines of magnetic flux travel through the air between the "top" and "bottom" of the "cylinder."

Let's suppose that L1 and L2 generate perfectly matched EMF.  If we connect the L1 and L2 outputs together so that they are in phase, then it still looks like an open circuit "pair of secondaries."  The EMFs match and no current flows through L1 and L2.

Conversely, if we connect L1 and L2 together so that they are out of phase, then you will have an AC short circuit, lots of current will flow through L1 and L2, that will be reflected to L3, so that the signal generator will see L3 looking like a heavy load.  Since there is no closed loop magnetic circuit for the core, it looks like a somewhat heavy load to the signal generator and not a near-AC short-circuit condition.  If you had a true closed-loop toroidal core for L3 then it would look like much more of an AC short-circuit.  (In the past few minutes I am very confident I figured it out, and that last sentence is the big clue, but moving on....)

We know that if you have an AC short circuit, that looks like L=0.   However, we are in the real world, and the EMFs generated by L1 and L2 will not exactly match.  Lo and behold with EMFs that don't exactly match, it looks like L is very small.  That would translate into a much higher resonant frequency, so it looks like we may be on the right track.

To be continued...

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 06, 2014, 05:10:09 AM
Okay so let's look at the case in your clip where you have both the left series LC tank circuit and the right series LC tank circuit running.

The first thought that probably came to your mind is that the both should resonate at about 157 Hz and you should see about the same resonant frequency.  But that didn't happen, it almost looks like the case I mentioned were you connect the two EMFs in opposite phase, cause an AC short, reduce the effective L to almost nothing, and get the high resonant frequency.

It looks like the two secondaries are shorted together in a bad way but we can clearly see that they are not shorted so what gives?

The answer is that the magnetic counter-flux from each LC resonator IS shorting through the closed-loop toroidal core!   We have a magnetic circuit short instead of an electrical EMF short!  It's effectively the same thing.

What is the root cause?  The root cause is that silly nonsensical L3 coil that straddles the toroidal core.  I already discussed the magnetic circuit for that core when it is being driven by L3.  I said that the magnetic flux leaves the "top blue" travels through the air, and then enters the "bottom blue."

Here is what I did not say:  When L3 drives the toroidal core as a quasi-cylindrical core, the left half of the toroid has CLOCKWISE flux, and the right half of the toroid has COUNTER-CLOCKWISE flux at the same time.  It's totally nonsensical!

Therefore, when L1 and L2 are in "normal resonance" at 157 Hz, the counter flux generated by each winding is CONNECTED by the toroidal core and you get a near-perfect MAGNETIC FLUX SELF-CANCELLATION, a magnetic SHORT.  Hence, for ALL AC excitation frequencies, there is a near magnetic short-circuit and the effective inductance L is reduced to a very small value.  If L1 and L2 were a perfect match, the self-resonant frequency would be "infinity" (divide by zero.)

So this one was "revenge of the nonsensical L3 and associated magnetic circuit - explained."

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 06, 2014, 05:16:22 AM
Itsu:

I may have the beginnings of the answer to the mystery of why the resonance frequency jumps up so high when you are driving both secondary tank circuits.  It's an incomplete answer and I am feeling my limitations.  (I think I just figured out the key clue, you may be able to confirm it for yourself.)

For starters we know that the angular resonance frequency of an LC tank circuit is 1/Sqrt(LC).

Since the resonance frequency jumps up very high when you connect the two separate series tank circuits, let's make the assumption that the effective L decreases dramatically when both tank circuits are connected.

Now here is a thought experiment:  Remove both capacitors and drive the setup through L3 like normal.  We now have a transformer setup with L1 and L2 as secondaries, with a "bizarre" core that resembles a "cylinder" inside the L3 coil.  The "top" of the "cylinder" is the upper exposed blue toroid.  The "bottom" of the "cylinder" is the lower exposed blue toroid.  Lines of magnetic flux travel through the air between the "top" and "bottom" of the "cylinder."

Let's suppose that L1 and L2 generate perfectly matched EMF.  If we connect the L1 and L2 outputs together so that they are in phase, then it still looks like an open circuit "pair of secondaries."  The EMFs match and no current flows through L1 and L2.

Conversely, if we connect L1 and L2 together so that they are out of phase, then you will have an AC short circuit, lots of current will flow through L1 and L2, that will be reflected to L3, so that the signal generator will see L3 looking like a heavy load.  Since there is no closed loop magnetic circuit for the core, it looks like a somewhat heavy load to the signal generator and not a near-AC short-circuit condition.  If you had a true closed-loop toroidal core for L3 then it would look like much more of an AC short-circuit.  (In the past few minutes I am very confident I figured it out, and that last sentence is the big clue, but moving on....)

We know that if you have an AC short circuit, that looks like L=0.   However, we are in the real world, and the EMFs generated by L1 and L2 will not exactly match.  Lo and behold with EMFs that don't exactly match, it looks like L is very small.  That would translate into a much higher resonant frequency, so it looks like we may be on the right track.

To be continued...

MileHigh

"Conversely, if we connect L1 and L2 together so that they are out of phase, then you will have an AC short circuit, lots of current will flow through L1 and L2, that will be reflected to L3, so that the signal generator will see L3 looking like a heavy load."

L3 is induced very little if any by currents in L1 and/or L2. It s an asymmetric transformer and L3 is the primary. No other use for it in this configuration.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 06, 2014, 05:19:37 AM
I told you to never interact with me on this forum again.  The worst behaviour that I have ever seen on this forum was from you bashing me repeatedly and relentlessly.

Do not engage with me on the forum.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 06, 2014, 05:58:28 AM
I told you to never interact with me on this forum again.  The worst behaviour that I have ever seen on this forum was from you bashing me repeatedly and relentlessly.

Do not engage with me on the forum.

These are your words....

http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg388214/#msg388214 (http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg388214/#msg388214)

 " At the same time there is freedom to comment in both senses "



http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg388214/#msg388214 (http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg388214/#msg388214)


It's a good thing that people can comment.


http://www.overunity.com/14128/an-interesting-phenomenon-i-found/msg388223/#msg388223 (http://www.overunity.com/14128/an-interesting-phenomenon-i-found/msg388223/#msg388223)

People can try whatever they want, and also get comments from people with differing views


So dont give me the 'I told you this and I told you that.' 

You either stand buy your own words or YOU can stop commenting on my posts, like you just did before this one.  (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)   Go ahead. Tell Stefan.  You have no rights to restrict me from posting as I please. I called you no names.  I have as much posting "freedom" as YOU.  So if you want to make a complaint, Ill meet you in pm and we can discuss this with Stefan. I have no problem with that. (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 06, 2014, 07:44:43 AM
Ok,  i tried severall things as requested, but it does not stay stable.
Whenever i change something in a coil, the other coils are out of their resonance.

When doing a resonance test for one of the secondary coils (feeding a signal in from L3), i HAVE to disconnect the cap from the other secondary.
It then shows correct resonance as compared to a resonance calculator on the web (around 157Hz).

But when hooking up again the other cap, the resonance frequency shoots up to 6.6KHz.

Same when i hook up a bulb in the right secondary, it changes the left secondary resonance once again to 4.8KHz, while the resonance of the right secondary
which contains the bulb now shoots up to 11KHz judging at the peak light in the bulb.

In this last situation we have different resonance frequencies between the both secondary coils.
When i now also add some capacitance to L3, the circus is changing once again

I feel like the guy in the drawing

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vat5Z9gfuwM&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vat5Z9gfuwM&feature=youtu.be)

Regards Itsu



11 kHz, now you have working replication :-) I was unable to see what was going on in the isolated LC in my setup, I could only see output light which maximized somewhere between 10 and 11 kHz.


Lets simplify the circuit so there can be only one resonant frequency. Connect those secondaries in parallel (as Mags already noticed) using just one capacitor (this was my first setup). You have CW-CCW coils so start of CW must be connected to end of CCW. C is reduced so resonance frequency will increase a bit. This is good in terms of L3, higher frequency means more blocking there.


The one time I used capacitor in L3 I tuned it like this:
1. I used L2s in parallel with just one 1000 nf capacitor in series with the load so no isolated LC here.
2. Connected load in the output and looked for the frequency that gave highest amount of light without a capacitor in L3.
3. Disconnected load so L2 side was open and placed a cap so that L3 resonated at the same frequency as the secondaries. I think cap was 73 nf (three 220 nf in series) and I got close enough.


When I tested this, I connected the L3 cap while the system was running and it gave bit more output light (10 watt and 8 watt halogens in the output). Enough to notice it. Did not notice anything in the input side as the 5 watt halogen there was not lit at all. Sweet spot did not change if I dropped the 10 watt halogen off which is good.


Secondaries should not affect primary so this tuning method worked. But there is also some capacitance between L3 and L2 that goes right under it, and also local inductance field is present from the secondaries so there can be some influence. This should be small enough to be ignored though.


With 11 kHz and higher tuning capacitor can possibly be dropped from L3 as it can block better, but I am not sure about this when using signal generator as source.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 06, 2014, 08:34:20 AM
What is the root cause?  The root cause is that silly nonsensical L3 coil that straddles the toroidal core.  I already discussed the magnetic circuit for that core when it is being driven by L3.  I said that the magnetic flux leaves the "top blue" travels through the air, and then enters the "bottom blue."

Here is what I did not say:  When L3 drives the toroidal core as a quasi-cylindrical core, the left half of the toroid has CLOCKWISE flux, and the right half of the toroid has COUNTER-CLOCKWISE flux at the same time.  It's totally nonsensical!

Therefore, when L1 and L2 are in "normal resonance" at 157 Hz, the counter flux generated by each winding is CONNECTED by the toroidal core and you get a near-perfect MAGNETIC FLUX SELF-CANCELLATION, a magnetic SHORT.  Hence, for ALL AC excitation frequencies, there is a near magnetic short-circuit and the effective inductance L is reduced to a very small value.  If L1 and L2 were a perfect match, the self-resonant frequency would be "infinity" (divide by zero.)

So this one was "revenge of the nonsensical L3 and associated magnetic circuit - explained."

MileHigh


I should have drawn a picture of how I think fluxes will go in this case in the pdf, but this is the effect nicely put in words by you: Near perfect magnetic flux self cancellation. I must add that those two L2s also feed each other and because of two opposing fluxes going on in the toroid L3 does not see if there is load or not. 


I disagree with you a bit though. The inductance that is left comes from the local inductance field which is low. Just compare same amount of turns in closed loop core and in a solenoid and effective L that they produce. In this case 4.8 kHz and 1100 nf gives 0.9 mH for L in that one LC. Did not found a calculator for rectangular 8*25 mm coil on 80000 core that would give sane results though. Maybe I did it wrong, I tried with this one: http://www.eeweb.com/toolbox/rectangle-loop-inductance/



Presence of local inductance field can possibly be proved easily. If same amount of turns is used but there is more space between turns then resonant frequency will go up as the influence of wire to a neighboring wire is reduced while 'looped inductance' stays the same. In itsu's case this could be done by moving the part of coils by hand that are visible, no need to touch anything that is under L3. When coils are parallel the spacing does not need to exact, it is the total L (and also C) that is left that counts. Maybe this can be done at a later time once we learn more about the basic setup from itsu.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 06, 2014, 09:28:22 AM
Just compare same amount of turns in closed loop core and in a solenoid and effective L that they produce.
Yes, it is obvious that L1 & L2 exhibit higher free inductance than L3. 
The inductance of a winding increases with the number of its turns and decreases with the reluctance of the magnetic circuit.  It is given by the  formula;
Inductance = Turns2 / Reluctance.

The difference in inductance between L3 and L1 (or L2) is mainly caused by the difference in the reluctance of the magnetic circuit.
For L1 & L2 the magnetic circuit has low reluctance through a high permeability toroidal core and for L3 the magnetic circuit has high reluctance through mostly air.

Low inductance (e.g. L3) presents low reactance to AC signal source and that causes high current to flow in it.  Colloquially this is called a "heavy load".
To decrease that load the inductance and reactance would need to be increased. L1 & L2 are examples of such loads.

Note that in Itsu's video, the mere presence of L3 increases the inductance of L1 & L2. 

@Itsu
What's the inductance of L1 & L2 with L3 shorted and open?


Did not found a calculator for rectangular 8*25 mm coil on 80000 core that would give sane results though. Maybe I did it wrong, I tried with this one: http://www.eeweb.com/toolbox/rectangle-loop-inductance/ (http://www.eeweb.com/toolbox/rectangle-loop-inductance/)
This calculator is for a rectangular loop of wire without any core in that loop.
You will get the most sensible results with the formula:  Inductance = AL * Turns2.
You can find the AL value in the manufacturer's datasheet for this toroidal core

This formula will not work for L3 because the magnetic circuit is not contained within the core for such winding and the reluctance of this path is affected by any permeable objects outside of that core (mostly air).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 06, 2014, 09:48:03 AM
I feel like the guy in the drawing
That means it's the time to set your scope to XY mode and do frequency sweeps.
The exponential sweeps produce the least artifacts because they present constant number of cycles for each frequency (Rigol calls them "logarithmic" for some reason)

Those sweeps will make you like an octopus instead of a guy with only four limbs in that funny drawing.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 06, 2014, 01:37:02 PM
If you had a true closed-loop toroidal core for L3 then it would look like much more of an AC short-circuit.  (In the past few minutes I am very confident I figured it out, and that last sentence is the big clue, but moving on....)
No because "AC short-circuit" means low inductive reactance, XL = 2πfL.

This means, that the inductance of L3 must be low in order to present low reactance for the same frequency.
Since L = N2/R that means that either turn count (N) has to be small or reluctance (R) has to be large in order to minimize inductance and reactance XL = 2πfN2/R.

A "true closed-loop toroidal core" has less reluctance than air, thus a winding over a closed permeable toroidal magnetic circuit will have higher inductance than the same winding over a less permeable magnetic circuit (e.g. one containing air gaps). 

In other words, a "true closed-loop toroidal core" offers less reluctance than air and causes more inductance, which means more reactance and less current, thus less of an "AC short-circuit"
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 06, 2014, 02:27:50 PM
Thanks all for you comments, it will take some time to digest.

Mags, i will keep those suggestions in mind as they involve some addons and/or modifications, nice info in that pdf.

MileHigh,  thanks for your reasoning, i need to get over them again when on the bench to check out some things if possible.

Jack, i am glad you can see something positive in all of this, i will check out what you said.

verpies, i will get back on your question about L1/L2 inductances while L3 is open/shortend.

I did notice that my LCR meter showed a correct value when the caps where removed (eg 710mH), but it went into a negative sign value (like -600) when i hooked up the cap on the other coil.
Normally a negative sign on this LCR meter means a too low value, a short or measuring a capacitor in the L position or vv.
 
Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 06, 2014, 04:34:04 PM
...your Tek scope can also display the sweep marker frequency in the gated XY mode with a mere capacitor and resistor at the Z input !
How many BNC cables do you have?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 06, 2014, 04:39:42 PM
...your Tek scope can also display the sweep marker frequency in the gated XY mode with a mere capacitor and resistor at the Z input !
How many BNC cables do you have?

At least 3, maybe more.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 06, 2014, 07:02:25 PM
@Itsu
What's the inductance of L1 & L2 with L3 shorted and open?

No change in inductances of L1 or L2 whether or not L3 is shorted or open, it stays 710mH  (no capacitors in use).

Regards itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 06, 2014, 09:57:53 PM
No change in inductances of L1 or L2 whether or not L3 is shorted or open, it stays 710mH  (no capacitors in use).
But with the L3 absent, the L1 & L2 had lower inductance, didn't they?

P.S.
Do you want to do the exp. frequency sweeps in XY mode with a marker display?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 06, 2014, 10:29:30 PM
But with the L3 absent, the L1 & L2 had lower inductance, didn't they?

P.S.
Do you want to do the exp. frequency sweeps in XY mode with a marker display?

Correct, both 680mH compared to the 710mH now with the L3

Yes, i am glad to do any exp. frequency sweeps in XY mode, i think it will be very enlightening.

regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 06, 2014, 11:10:21 PM


11 kHz, now you have working replication :-) I was unable to see what was going on in the isolated LC in my setup, I could only see output light which maximized somewhere between 10 and 11 kHz.


Lets simplify the circuit so there can be only one resonant frequency. Connect those secondaries in parallel (as Mags already noticed) using just one capacitor (this was my first setup). You have CW-CCW coils so start of CW must be connected to end of CCW. C is reduced so resonance frequency will increase a bit. This is good in terms of L3, higher frequency means more blocking there.


The one time I used capacitor in L3 I tuned it like this:
1. I used L2s in parallel with just one 1000 nf capacitor in series with the load so no isolated LC here.
2. Connected load in the output and looked for the frequency that gave highest amount of light without a capacitor in L3.
3. Disconnected load so L2 side was open and placed a cap so that L3 resonated at the same frequency as the secondaries. I think cap was 73 nf (three 220 nf in series) and I got close enough.


When I tested this, I connected the L3 cap while the system was running and it gave bit more output light (10 watt and 8 watt halogens in the output). Enough to notice it. Did not notice anything in the input side as the 5 watt halogen there was not lit at all. Sweet spot did not change if I dropped the 10 watt halogen off which is good.


Secondaries should not affect primary so this tuning method worked. But there is also some capacitance between L3 and L2 that goes right under it, and also local inductance field is present from the secondaries so there can be some influence. This should be small enough to be ignored though.


With 11 kHz and higher tuning capacitor can possibly be dropped from L3 as it can block better, but I am not sure about this when using signal generator as source.


Ok i followed Jack's directions and paralleled the both secondaries with only one (double) cap (1100nF).
Without bulb it resonates at 10.5KHz (signal injected through L3)

After hooking up the bulb in the secondaries LC, its resonance frequency raised to 18KHz.

Then searching the L3 for resonance (injecting a signal through the both paralleled secondaries without cap/bulb) which was 1MHz.
Bringing down this frequency to 18KHz by using 70nF capacitance (where have i seen that value before).

Now both L3 and the paralleled secondaries with cap (1100nF) and bulb resonate at 18KHz.

In this situation,

Input voltage and current (from FG) are in phase
Minimum input current (is this what you mean by blocking the current?)
maximum input voltage
Maximum input power  (144mW) from FG
maximum output power (122mW bulb max. lit   see picture*)

* as i forgot to measure in the video the voltage/current (power) across/through the output bulb, the picture shows the
blue trace the voltage across the bulb and the green trace the current through the bulb with the red math function blue * green = avg power
(times 2 for the currentprobe terminator)
 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 06, 2014, 11:36:34 PM
Yes, i am glad to do any exp. frequency sweeps in XY mode. I think it will be very enlightening.
Well then, find/make a short BNC-BNC cable to connect the CH1: Mod/FSK/Trig connector with the CH2: Mod/FSK/Trig connector - both located on the back panel of the DG4102.
The remaining connections are shown below.

Principle of operation:
SG-CH2 generates an horizontal exponential time-base for the scope using a Burst mode and applies it to the X channel (Scope-CH1).  The looped Triggers on the back of the SG are for synchronizing the start of the exponential time-base (SG-CH2) with the start of the FM Sweep on SG-CH1.
SG-CH1 generates an exponentially FM modulated sine wave for exciting the DUT and the DUT's response is sensed by the Y channel (Scope-CH2) for vertical display of the amplitude response.

The capacitor and resistor, that connects the front SG-CH1.Sync output to the Z input (Scope-CH3), will have to be chosen experimentally (they determine the marker gap through the "Z gate" input ).   To estimate their values I'd need to know if CH3 of the Tek scope can be set to 50Ω impedance.

Programming of the SG and Scope later...
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 07, 2014, 02:28:26 AM
Ooops, sorry.  My last post with the pdf attached, I forgot to post the other pdf on the multi cores that I was talking about. I usually post them together as they complement each other. ;)

Ive read it several times, and in it all, the one thing that is probably key to the whole article(below) is the fact that loading the secondary wont kill resonance of the primary.  But it doesnt illustrate the use of a bifi coil, or an LC, which could be run at resonance, it just states it.

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 07, 2014, 03:01:04 AM
No change in inductances of L1 or L2 whether or not L3 is shorted or open, it stays 710mH  (no capacitors in use).

Regards itsu

 ;)   L3 is well isolated from the affects for the secondaries.  So we can assume there is very little if any flux leakage to the outer sides of the core, unless at or around saturation.

What I cant get around with the orientation of L3 vs either L1 or L2, is the fact that L3 would want to initially magnetize the core through its diameter, but loading a secondary would want to magnetize the core through its loop shape. Im wondering about all the interactions of the primaries affects on the core mixed with the sec affect on the core. Does that mix have an advantage or disadvantage of in vs out.  Where with the separate cores, the cores will not have that mix of the primary trying to magnetize the core as if it were a bar or rod, and the sec trying to be in the circle, all at the same time.  And if the primary is trying to treat the toroid core as a bar/rod, then there should be flux leakage, N out one side of the diameter, and S out the other. But, possibly the 'mix' sucks, or say guides magnetically, the primary field all into the loop of the core.

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 07, 2014, 05:11:21 AM
Itsu:

In your latest clip where you have L1 and L2 in parallel and a single capacitor, you still have a very high resonant frequency, implying that L1 and L2 are in a "flux fight" and canceling each other out.  So if you cross one set of wires then L1 and L2 should add together and you should go back to a low resonant frequency.

Verpies:

Quote
A "true closed-loop toroidal core" has less reluctance than air, thus a winding over a closed permeable toroidal magnetic circuit will have higher inductance than the same winding over a less permeable magnetic circuit (e.g. one containing air gaps). 

In other words, a "true closed-loop toroidal core" offers less reluctance than air and causes more inductance, which means more reactance and less current, thus less of an "AC short-circuit"

What I was trying to compare was the "L3 straddling" configuration with having L3 wrapped around the toroid in the normal fashion, just like L1 and L2.  So then the coupling factor between the primary and the two secondaries (I think it is called 'k') would be much better (low reluctance path) and much more energy will flow through the magnetic circuit and hence you will get a "stronger AC short."  The larger inductance of L3 works "against" you and you get more of a nasty power burn in the windings.

Jack:

Quote
Presence of local inductance field can possibly be proved easily. If same amount of turns is used but there is more space between turns then resonant frequency will go up as the influence of wire to a neighboring wire is reduced while 'looped inductance' stays the same.

I don't know what you mean by "local inductance field."  More importantly, there is essentially no "influence of a wire to a neighboring wire."  That sounds like an old wives' tale.  In the context of winding wires around a toroid to make an inductor, it's the permeability of the core, and the number of turns that really count.  Also, the core can only store so much magnetic energy before it saturates.  There is a culture of experimenters neglecting or being afraid to correct each other on the forums.  That leads to stagnation, people don't learn because nobody corrects them and it becomes a vicious circle.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 07, 2014, 05:24:15 AM
I think it is important to reiterate one thing about a typical resonance setup, something that is going on in this thread.

Take a look at a secondary that is connected to capacitor as a load.  That can be driven into resonance by a signal applied to the primary.  Naturally you can put a light bulb in series to eyeball the AC current if you want to.

So the secondary circuit looks like a series resonant LC tank with an AC EMF source:   [AC EMF source] -> [Coil + wire resistance] -> [Capacitor]

So when driven at resonance the (Coil + Capacitor) becomes a short circuit and you are left with [AC EMF source] -> [Wire resistance]

That is an AC energy DESTROYER.  At resonance, it will burn off the maximum possible power in the resistance of the winding of the coil.

It seems to me that often people are "chasing after resonance" without realizing that sometimes resonance is a bad thing if you are trying to achieve over unity.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 07, 2014, 09:37:40 AM
  To estimate their values I'd need to know if CH3 of the Tek scope can be set to 50Ω impedance.

Programming of the SG and Scope later...

verpies, it does have the posibility to set each channel in 50 Ohm impedance.

Thanks,  Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 07, 2014, 09:43:55 AM

Ok i followed Jack's directions and paralleled the both secondaries with only one (double) cap (1100nF).
Without bulb it resonates at 10.5KHz (signal injected through L3)

After hooking up the bulb in the secondaries LC, its resonance frequency raised to 18KHz.

Then searching the L3 for resonance (injecting a signal through the both paralleled secondaries without cap/bulb) which was 1MHz.
Bringing down this frequency to 18KHz by using 70nF capacitance (where have i seen that value before).

Now both L3 and the paralleled secondaries with cap (1100nF) and bulb resonate at 18KHz.

In this situation,

Input voltage and current (from FG) are in phase
Minimum input current (is this what you mean by blocking the current?)
maximum input voltage
Maximum input power  (144mW) from FG
maximum output power (122mW bulb max. lit   see picture*)

* as i forgot to measure in the video the voltage/current (power) across/through the output bulb, the picture shows the
blue trace the voltage across the bulb and the green trace the current through the bulb with the red math function blue * green = avg power
(times 2 for the currentprobe terminator)
 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be)

Regards Itsu


Yes, by blocking I meant minimum input current.


Can you verify that input is not affected if you disconnect the output ?
Now can you test the same setup using the other signal gen that gives 30 volt signal ? The one on the vid used 5 volts, right ? At least this is seen on the scope.


If there would have been bulb in the L3 coil to 'measure' input then that bulb would have been more lit than the output bulb ? If so, then there is still some difference compared to my setup.


From this test I now I remember what happened when I first tested this. I had 1000 nf cap in the output and I was about to quit testing, 'just one more sweep and then I dump these cores in the ocean' and as sweep was about to end at 19 kHz my output bulb started to light up. Not very bright though, so I added second 1000 nF cap and then I got better result as frequency dropped to 11 kHz. I could not add more because then my L3 started to leak as the frequency went down and not very easy to find resonance in L3 using caps for me.


So now I am thinking that one way to increase output power is to add more caps in the output side and at the same time keep L3 in the resonance as you already did. The second way could be to increase input voltage, I am not sure but now you can test this easily with your current 18 kHz setup.


If these two options give positive results then next step is to see how increasing the resonant F by spreading turns, using less turns, using thicker wire etc. affects this. Then bring it down by adding more caps in the output. But lets not think about this at the moment, better to keep variables as few as possible for now.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 07, 2014, 09:46:41 AM
Itsu:

Jack:

I don't know what you mean by "local inductance field."  More importantly, there is essentially no "influence of a wire to a neighboring wire."  That sounds like an old wives' tale.  In the context of winding wires around a toroid to make an inductor, it's the permeability of the core, and the number of turns that really count.  Also, the core can only store so much magnetic energy before it saturates.  There is a culture of experimenters neglecting or being afraid to correct each other on the forums.  That leads to stagnation, people don't learn because nobody corrects them and it becomes a vicious circle.

MileHigh



I need to correct myself here. What I call local inductance field is actually the magnetic loop of a solenoid through air from end of solenoid to beginning, verpies made me realize that. Anyway, end result is the same: not much influence compared to looped core.


There is magnetic field around a wire so it will affect neighboring wire, but effect is barely noticeable below 20 kHz.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 07, 2014, 09:47:53 AM
Itsu:

In your latest clip where you have L1 and L2 in parallel and a single capacitor, you still have a very high resonant frequency, implying that L1 and L2 are in a "flux fight" and canceling each other out.  So if you cross one set of wires then L1 and L2 should add together and you should go back to a low resonant frequency.


MileHigh, 

i did cross one set of wires when i started, and found almost no resonance point, untill i cranked up the sensitivity of the scope.
Its like you said, the resonance then is around 175Hz (low again), but very small in amplitude (50mV while inputting 20V pp from the FG).
My thoughts where that they where wrongly connected and now had a "flux fight".

I then changed them to where they are now and found a nice big resonance point around 10.5KHz of about 13V pp which lateron changed to 18KHz when connecting the bulb in series.

So what is the correct connection of the both parelleled coils? Like it is now High Amplitude / high frequency resonance point or low amplitude / low frequency resoance point?


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 07, 2014, 10:34:13 AM

Yes, by blocking I meant minimum input current.


Can you verify that input is not affected if you disconnect the output ?
Now can you test the same setup using the other signal gen that gives 30 volt signal ? The one on the vid used 5 volts, right ? At least this is seen on the scope.


If there would have been bulb in the L3 coil to 'measure' input then that bulb would have been more lit than the output bulb ? If so, then there is still some difference compared to my setup...........................



Jack,

i normally set my FG to the max. amplitude, which is 20V pp for the one i used yesterday.
The other FG with 30V pp i use if for some reason this 20V pp is not enough, which was not the case yesterday.

I can do some further testing with this setup (including crossing the parallel coil wires again) and insert an input bulb in L3 to show the current there etc.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 07, 2014, 06:06:49 PM
I don't know what you mean by "local inductance field." 
Neither do I  ???

More importantly, there is essentially no "influence of a wire to a neighboring wire."  That sounds like an old wives' tale.
I think in this scenario he just means capacitive coupling between closely spaced wires.

There is a culture of experimenters neglecting or being afraid to correct each other on the forums.  That leads to stagnation, people don't learn because nobody corrects them and it becomes a vicious circle.
Indeed, there is.  It is pathological and unscientific.
When I make a mistake people send me apologetic private messages with their valid objections instead of just dishing it out on an open forum.

Edit:
I noticed in the subsequent message that Jack's "influence of a wire to a neighboring wire." is explained by him as the Amperean induction of two parallel wires.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 07, 2014, 06:36:20 PM
I normally set my FG to the max. amplitude, which is 20V pp for the one i used yesterday.
Rigol specifies 20V only for loads greater than 10kΩ. For heavier loads the 20V amplitude cannot be maintained.  Rigol will display the real output amplitude if the Load's impedance is set accurately in its Utility menu.

The other FG with 30V pp i use if for some reason this 20V pp is not enough,
That old SG outputs not only higher voltage but it has a built-in low impedance amplifier that prevents its output voltage from dropping as much as Rigol's output for heavy loads.

If you had that EL2009 amplifier working, then its output voltage would be even less prone to dropping under heavy loading. 
Its output impedance is an astonishing 1Ω at 90MHz !!!

P.S.
If you'd measured the VP-P amplitude of these SigGens with a 10Ω 100Ω and 1kΩ resistors as loads, then you'd get an exact picture how their output voltage sags under load and we could even calculate exact output impedances of these SigGens.




 
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 08, 2014, 12:21:32 AM

Yes, by blocking I meant minimum input current.


Can you verify that input is not affected if you disconnect the output ?
Now can you test the same setup using the other signal gen that gives 30 volt signal ? The one on the vid used 5 volts, right ? At least this is seen on the scope.


If there would have been bulb in the L3 coil to 'measure' input then that bulb would have been more lit than the output bulb ? If so, then there is still some difference compared to my setup.


From this test I now I remember what happened when I first tested this. I had 1000 nf cap in the output and I was about to quit testing, 'just one more sweep and then I dump these cores in the ocean' and as sweep was about to end at 19 kHz my output bulb started to light up. Not very bright though, so I added second 1000 nF cap and then I got better result as frequency dropped to 11 kHz. I could not add more because then my L3 started to leak as the frequency went down and not very easy to find resonance in L3 using caps for me.


So now I am thinking that one way to increase output power is to add more caps in the output side and at the same time keep L3 in the resonance as you already did. The second way could be to increase input voltage, I am not sure but now you can test this easily with your current 18 kHz setup.


If these two options give positive results then next step is to see how increasing the resonant F by spreading turns, using less turns, using thicker wire etc. affects this. Then bring it down by adding more caps in the output. But lets not think about this at the moment, better to keep variables as few as possible for now.

Ok,  answering these questions:

Quote
Can you verify that input is not affected if you disconnect the output ?

Disconnecting the output i understand as disconnecting the caps and bulb from the seondaries.
The change is in the current (which flatlines now) and the power which is much less. The resonance frequency of L3 stays around 18KHz

Quote
Now can you test the same setup using the other signal gen that gives 30 volt signal ? The one on the vid used 5 volts, right ? At least this is seen on the scope.

I did the same test with the other SG at 30V, but the 5 V you saw on the scope yesterday was a RMS value wich equals 14v PP.
The rms value now was 8.45V which equals 24V pp.  input Power increased and output bulb was brighter.
Installing an input bulb showed a slight detune from the 18KHz in L3, but at resonance input bulb was never brighter then output bulb.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIy0SSh77SM&feature=youtu.be


At this point i stopped as i think we first should agree on how to connect the both secondaries together.
According to MileHigh, now (high resonance point) the both secondaries are wrongly connected.


Facts:

when all coils are open (nothing connected), the both secondaries measure each:

713mH
1.2 Ohm
Shorting L3 does not make any difference.

When both secondaries are paralleled the way i had yesterday (high resonance frequence around 10KHz) they measure:

260uH   as in micro henries!!   
0.6 Ohm
Shorting L3 decreases inductance to 180uH

When both secondaries are parelleled the other way (low resonance frequency around 175Hz) they measure:

713mH!!  SHOULD THIS NOT BE HALF?
0.6 Ohm
Shorting L3 does not make any difference.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p03S3qmDBzU&feature=youtu.be   

So my question is:

what is the correct way to hook up the both secondaries?


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 08, 2014, 02:01:57 AM
713mH!!  SHOULD THIS NOT BE HALF?
It should be so only if you are connecting two separate inductors in parallel (on two separate cores). 
Note, that winding direction is not an issue for completely separate inductors.

However, if there is any flux sharing between two inductors and/or any mutual inductance, then their relative winding direction becomes an issue and formulas for Mutually Coupled Inductors in Parallel (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/parallel-inductors.html) should be used instead.

Shorting L3 does not make any difference.
Of course, because L3 affects only the leakage flux that closes outside of the core through the air (bar core saturation).

When L1 & L2 are connected in parallel then the leakage flux is minimal, however if L1 & L2 are connected in antiparallel then their fluxes oppose ("fight") each other and it is much "easier' for them to close outside of the core (through the air ) than go through the core. 
This situation creates a large leakage flux outside of the core ...and this leakage flux can be easily affected by L3.

what is the correct way to hook up the both secondaries?
"Correct" to maximize what parameter?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 08, 2014, 02:52:33 AM
I wrote this before but I will repeat it again:
Mutual magnetic coupling between two transformer windings, "consumes" the free inductance of the secondary winding, that otherwise would be available to form an LC Tank with a capacitor connected to this secondary winding.

In an extreme case (when the the mutual coupling coefficient = 1) the entire inductance of the secondary winding becomes "consumed" (converted to an EMF source) and there is no free inductance remaining in it to form an LC Tank with a capacitor connected to this winding.
The frequency response of such secondary circuit is the same as of a lone capacitor (no resonant peaks) - Itsu has witnessed this response when his windings were wound to maximize the mutual coupling coefficient.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 08, 2014, 06:13:10 AM
Itsu:

Thanks and I am not surprised that you also tried crossing the wires.  I realize you can't put everything in your clips.  So you appear to get a much lower resonant frequency but the amplitude is very low.  Something is going on, perhaps your investigations will figure it it.  Of course it's hard to visualize all the nuances associated with these things in your head.  I can only suggest that there is still something funny going on because the the L1 and L2 are seeing clockwise and counter-clockwise flux at the same instant from L3, while at the same time they are magnetically connected by the toroid.  So if L1 is driving a load, the counter-flux induced in L1 also flows into L2, etc, etc.

Verpies:

Quote
Mutual magnetic coupling between two transformer windings, "consumes" the free inductance of the secondary winding, that otherwise would be available to form an LC Tank with a capacitor connected to this secondary winding.

Indeed, that means my posting #165 is bogus.  To be honest I had some nagging doubts about it.  I realize that when the capacitor is discharging energy and sending it back to the source, it sees a real load.  The toroid couples the AC power back to the source.  So I suppose the instantaneous impedance the capacitor sees is the output impedance of the signal generator (typically a 50-ohm resistor) plus the impedance caused by the instantaneous output voltage of the signal generator signal.  And of course there is a transformer turns ratio to factor in also.

So in this case the L1 or L2 secondary is not an inductance, it's just part of the "gear system" that either transmits AC power forward into a target load, or it transmits AC power "backwards" into the signal generator source, which also looks like a load to the capacitor.  I use the term "gear system" because a great analogy for a transformer is a set of meshed gears.

In my opinion, at this point what's really happening is Itsu is exploring the phasor relationships in the power flow as he tries different configurations.  There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but it's still interesting.  There are a couple of ways to do the math behind the way the phasors act and react.  I did it in anther lifetime!  lol

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 08, 2014, 08:13:17 AM
Itsu:

I watched clip 16 and I figured it out, but I am too tired to write it up.  Still lots of fighting going on.  If it ain't flux fighting, then it's EMF fighting.  There is your big clue.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 08, 2014, 12:33:15 PM
It should be so only if you are connecting two separate inductors in parallel (on two separate cores). 
Note, that winding direction is not an issue for completely separate inductors.

However, if there is any flux sharing between two inductors and/or any mutual inductance, then their relative winding direction becomes an issue and formulas for Mutually Coupled Inductors in Parallel (http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/parallel-inductors.html) should be used instead.
Of course, because L3 affects only the leakage flux that closes outside of the core through the air (bar core saturation).

Ok, great link, it explains exactly what is happening in this situation:

parallel aiding    LT = L1 = L2 = M  meaning 713mH whether they are paralleled or not, L stays the same

parallel opposing  LT = ( L ± M ) ÷ 2 meaning zero with perfect components, and in my real world 260uH (this was how my tests were done yesterday)
(This time, if the two inductances are equal in value and the magnetic coupling is perfect between them,
the equivalent inductance and also the self-induced emf across the inductors will be zero as the two
inductors cancel each other out. )

Quote
"Correct" to maximize what parameter?

good question, i leave that to Jack, but my feeling is telling me that we should go for the parallel aiding = 713mH setup,
i mean why should we want to cancel out anything?

Thanks,  regards Itsu

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 08, 2014, 12:37:07 PM
Itsu:

I watched clip 16 and I figured it out, but I am too tired to write it up.  Still lots of fighting going on.  If it ain't flux fighting, then it's EMF fighting.  There is your big clue.

MileHigh

Hmmm,   in "parallel opposing" yes, both flux fighting and EMF fighting going on as mentioned earlier, but when in "parallel aiding", all should be fine and dandy, right?

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 08, 2014, 08:49:29 PM
Itsu:

In the case of the high resonance frequency and high resonance voltage you have this:

L1 and L2 are connected to cancel each other's flux through the toroid (wires crossed), hence you measure very low inductance from the "outside"  (the inductance meter).
However, funky L3 produces "clockwise" flux in L1 and "counter-clockwise" flux in the toroid at the same time.  This produces opposite EMFs in each coil, but since the wires are crossed the EMFs match each other (they don't cancel each other out).
So you end up with a situation where L3 can induce large EMFs in the cross-wired L1 and L2 (the toroid is effectively split into two by L3) and at the same time from the perspective of measuring the inductance from the "outside" you have the flux cancellation (the toroid is a single contiguous toroid.)

Effectively, you have lost the "Big L" do to the toroid.  It is split into two "small L's" by funky L3 and you get a high resonance frequency.

In the case of the low resonance frequency and low resonance voltage you have:

In this case L1 and L2 are wired correctly so when seen from the "outside"  (the inductance meter) you measure high inductance.  Note again that in this case the toroid is seen as a single contiguous toroid and there is no flux cancellation.
However, funky L3 is still splitting the toroid into to halves.  The EMF induced into L1 is the opposite of the EMF induced into L2 and as a result they nearly completely cancel each other out.

Here is where it gets a bit subtle and perhaps Verpies can comment in case I am wrong.  It appears that you still have a "Big L" and a low resonance frequency, but the EMFs from L1 and L2 cancel and you get almost no voltage output.

I will do my rant again:  The way L3 is set up is completely and totally nonsensical.  Likewise every second transformer or magnetic circuit that you see on the forums has a bloody magnet or magnets as part of the magnetic circuit.  This is also completely and totally nonsensical.  Magnets produce "DC" magnetic flux and magnetic circuits and coils ONLY RESPOND TO AC excitation.  The only thing the magnets do is degrade the performance of the cores.  There may be be some tiny niche applications for magnets in this context but I am not talking about that.  Whenever you see some free energy proposition with a magnetic component with magnets in the circuit to "compress the fields" or whatever you can consider it to be B.S.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 08, 2014, 10:29:03 PM

Here is where it gets a bit subtle and perhaps Verpies can comment in case I am wrong.  It appears that you still have a "Big L" and a low resonance frequency, but the EMFs from L1 and L2 cancel and you get almost no voltage output.



Ok, so the very low voltages (500mV pp) at this low frequency which inhibits the output bulb ( see video below) to even glow comes from this L3 canceling the EMF's.
I could test this by using another coil (L4), but now normally wound like the secondary coils and use that as injector coil for the FG.


Just before your comment, i did some measurements with the both secondary coils in aiding parallel.
They now resonate at 174Hz, but with very low signals and the bulb is not lit.

When i now want for L3 also to resonate at 174Hz, it means i have to add 830uF of (bipolar) capacitance to L3 (1mH).
I don't think this is a practical way so this means to me that Jack did test his setup with the both secondaries in opposing parallel
setup like i had yesterday.

Jack did mention in post #167 something about adding another 1000nF cap, but this was when he was using opposing (10KHz resonance) parallel coils.
Adding more capacitance in aiding mode only lowers the resonance frequency even more.

So opposing parallel is the way to go?

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v77XLg__nPw&feature=youtu.be

Regards itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 09, 2014, 11:52:25 AM

My idea of these low voltages on this low frequency is that it is caused by the low inductive reactance of this 1mH L3 coil at 174Hz which according to:
http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/reactance-calculator.php is:   XL = 1.093 Ohms

This seems to be confirmed by the low input voltage from the FG as can be seen in the clip above.

I guess i will have to hurry up on my build on these EL2009's verpies mentioned or use an imt (impedance matching transformer) to transform the 50 Ohm of the FG to the 1 Ohm of the L3


Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 10, 2014, 06:25:06 AM
Itsu:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

In clip #17, you are stating that there is a huge voltage drop across the function generator output when it drives the setup.  As you know the L1 and L2 are in an aiding configuration from point of view of the inductance meter, but when driven by L3 the EMFs are opposite at they create a short.  So I am assuming that a somewhat high current is flowing through the L1-L2 loop.  Note that L1 + L2 alone forms a big resistor.  That current may be higher than the current going through the capacitor.

So that represents a big load on L3, which then causes a big load on the signal generator output.  That's an impedance mismatch with the 50-ohm output of the function generator so not much power is flowing.

What surprises me how much of a load (low impedance) the circuit represents.  I was figuring that the L3 coupling might not be that good, but thinking about it again, perhaps better than I thought.  L3 looks like a regular coil with a cylindrical core.  The "cylindrical core" is the toroid of course.  That volume of magnetic material may store enough energy to create that heavy load, even though the return flux path has to go through the high reluctance air.  Perhaps measuring some of the currents would be interesting.

If you added a "normal" L4 you would indeed see much different results.  The L1 and L2 would work together from both sides of the coin, as seen by the inductance meter, and also as 'seen' by L4.

All in all, it looks like the setup is a very low impedance AC load.  More power is being burned off in the function generator resistor than the circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 10, 2014, 06:40:32 AM
Note that you have the voltage drop in in the function generator no load vs. load.  That gives you the data to measure the AC impedance of the circuit as a whole.  How does that compare to the reactance calculation?

P.S.:  On second thought I am not sure what I said above is a valid comparison.  The pure reactance of the inductor is a different thing than the inductor driving a magnetically coupled load.  In the former case you will see the 90 degree phase lag in the current because of the pure inductance.  I believe in the latter case you would see a much smaller the phase shift between voltage and current because of the resistive load being coupled back to the source and dominating.  I am thinking that the resistive load from the wire resistance in L1 and L2 is what dominates.  Then there is the cap to consider.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 10, 2014, 12:58:35 PM

Itsu,
Opposing parallel coils and high frequency resonance is the way to go.


Can you feed L3 using your power amp ? In my testing pushing little power had no effect, I had to use more power. I quess I was using 1-2 watts. How many amps can go through a 5 watt/12 volt halogen without any sign of light or heat in it ? That was the amount of power I was pushing in.


Don Smith used NST (35 kHz, 30 mA and 2000  volts or so), only a few turn coils on a Metglass C core (high permeability). Now we know that when L2s oppose their resonant frequency will be higher so 35 kHz drive is reasonable with only few turns. Drive signal was passed via diode so it was clipped to half cycle sine, resembling pulse.


Don also used small capacitor parallel to L3 and spark (GDT) between C and L, the well known Tesla circuit. So he was smacking the L3 with a strong pulse which gives amps and voltage for a short period of time. This will make L2s ring at their own (high) resonant frequency. When next kick comes in correct time (L3 subharmonic resonance) then L2s keep on ringing. While L2s ring, the L3 is disconnected from the system because spark is not conducting.


C in L3 must be small enough so that it charges enough to jump the GDT, this depends on the amps coming from the source.


Before we start messing around with sparks, we could check what happens in L2s when L3 is driven with a pulse. No capacitor needed in L3, possibly a rectifying diode is needed there but I don't know for sure. Purpose is to see how long those L2s ring, to get impulse response of the system. Width of the pulse could be varied. Frequency of the drive could be sub harmonic of L2 resonant frequency. It should be interesting to see what happens in L2s when the next pulse comes from L3 before oscillations have died out in L2s.


Now there is some DC resistance so I don't expect L2s to ring for long, but still longer compared to just one L2 coil only. Maybe this could be compared ?


There are two options, two LC tanks in the output or one LC tank combined from two coils. I think two separate L2s are better when driving with a pulse.


If results are interesting (tubular L2 waveform) then maybe it is time to make second similar setup but using thickest wire you got and only few turns for each coil, 10 turns is a nice round figure. If DC resistance of the coil is dropped 100 times then DC resistance is not eating up the power any more in significant amount, Q-factor will also increase giving better resonant rise.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: MileHigh on March 11, 2014, 12:58:51 AM
Jack:

I don't have the right to speak for Itsu, but let me say my piece.  This one is a done deal, it's dead.  Your last posting was over the top, and all over the map, you are designing a new setup by trial and error.  At this point I suggest that you build something yourself.  If you have theories about how some kind of transformer circuit will operate, then draw up some timing diagrams and then check the operation of the circuit against your timing diagrams.  I know that "timing diagrams" is a hot potato term because people can talk a blue streak about the hypothetical operation of a circuit, but then when you ask them to make up a timing diagram they clam up right away and say nothing.  It means they are not capable of taking their "talk the talk" and actually walking the walk.

Pumping more power into a circuit will not make it all of a sudden work.  When you play with transformers you could end up saturating the cores and then the currents will jump up and get very high.  I saw on another thread where you posted and you have some quite radical ideas about transformers and related stuff and how they work.  The honest truth is that you can't get more power out of a transformer than you pump into it.  It might be a bitter pill to swallow but it's the truth.

I am not in any way trying to discourage you from doing tests and trying out circuits and all that jazz.  The key thing is that the circuit won't ever lie, it will simply do what it is supposed to do.  It's interpretation of what it is actually doing where things sometimes go amiss.

Going back to one of my earlier points, suppose you dream up some simple transformer circuit.  The challenge for you is to work out the timing diagram(s) of how it will operate _before_ you hook up your signal generator and scope probes to it.  If you can't do it that should, in the best case, motivate you to start surfing the net or buy some books, etc.  It makes no sense to design a circuit and then claim that you can't make up a timing diagram for the circuit.

Let's assume that you make a timing diagram for a circuit and then you build it and check it out with your scope.  If it checks out and the timing is as per your timing diagrams, good for you.  If it doesn't check out and your timing diagrams are way off, then that should motivate you to start probing around with your scope probe until you figure out the operation of the circuit.

Trust me, these kinds of circuits are all about the timing.  Timing is king and if you don't understand the timing, then you don't understand the circuit.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 11, 2014, 07:46:11 AM
My problem is that I don't have a scope and cannot get one.


So I was asking for impulse response of the L2 coils so we all could learn from it as we have learned so far. Waveform should be tubular in this case. Why ? Because in plain LC circuit the bell shape waveform does not come from DC resistance alone, it comes mainly from self induction. For example, when DC resistance of a coil is close to zero, then ringing still dies out fast because of self induction. Higher the L then faster the oscillation dampens. Information that I have read from text books say oscillation dampens because of DC resistance only, not a word on self induction. Here we have two L2s working together and inductance is in micro henries so it will oscillate many times while at the same time they create energy in the series capacitor, which is then used by the load. Bigger the capacitor more energy we can collect.



Last night I figured it out how Don used the drive, it is not just a plain LC with spark gap but a little more. We already have L3 that rings with the same frequency as L2s and when power is taken L3 stays in resonance. This is the key and these were shown in Itsu's videos. Now this C3-L3 combo needs to be kicked with a pulse, it starts ringing and then it can be kicked at some lower subharmonic of resonant frequency. So the drive is basic Tesla type C-spark-L with steroids, L is replaced with L3-C3 and there must be diode after the spark. Otherwise C3 in the L3 will discharge over spark back to C on the other side.


Of course spark can be replaced with a solid state switch, then there is no need for pulse drive but DC is enough. The solid state switch then controls how kicks are applied to L3-C3.


Result is that there will now be free oscillation in L3-C3 tank and it will oscillate many times for free because it's L is low => self induction is low => oscillation dampening is low. Little power is then needed to keep this oscillation going on to feed the L2s which create the power which can be used.

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 11, 2014, 10:58:04 AM
Jack:

I don't have the right to speak for Itsu, but let me say my piece.  This one is a done deal, it's dead.  Your last posting was over the top, and all over the map, you are designing a new setup by trial and error.  At this point I suggest that you build something yourself.  If you have theories about how some kind of transformer circuit will operate, then draw up some timing diagrams and then check the operation of the circuit against your timing diagrams.  I know that "timing diagrams" is a hot potato term because people can talk a blue streak about the hypothetical operation of a circuit, but then when you ask them to make up a timing diagram they clam up right away and say nothing.  It means they are not capable of taking their "talk the talk" and actually walking the walk.



I have once again to agree with MileHigh here.
When you dragged in Don Smith and all these idea's about pulsing etc. i knew you need to set up your own bench and start
experimenting yourself as you are still full of vague concepts of transformers and abnormal behaviour.

I wrote up a response, but decided to sleep over it as i don't like to make impulsive reactions, but my opinion has not changed.
See that reaction below.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 11, 2014, 10:59:27 AM

Jack,
I followed your last suggestion by powering the core in opposing parallel setup again but now with my power amp.

The problem with this is that for the PA to properly work i need to transform the low 4 Ohm output to a higher value (L3 at 32KHz = 200 Ohm)
As i have only a fixed transformer (4 Ohm to 6600 Ohm) we introduce yet another mismatch.

The bulb in the output now is much brighter, but probably due to the higher filament resistance or whatever, the resonance frequency
shifted from 17KHz to around 30KHz.

Input into the bulb about 1W.    Input into the PA is 105W!

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsHu0wOZSko&feature=youtu.be


I think it is pointless to continue this as all seems to be perfectly explainable and no abnormalities can be found.
Its becoming a neverending story with continued side steps and i see you still have a lot of new ideas, but i don't
want to invest any more of my time in it.

My advice is that if you are convinced that there must be something special you invest some money in a decent oscilloscope
and start testing/measuring yourselve.

I will continue to explore other things which will use up the little free time i have.

Regards Itsu

 
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 11, 2014, 01:07:24 PM
Thanks for your efforts Itsu.


Can you estimate what was the input power to L3 after the audio transformer as this is what comes in the system ?
If the load was disconnected your power amp still used lots of power due to impedance mismatch ?


I wonder what is the difference with your power amp compared to mine ? I don't have to use anything special after the amplifier. When I placed the L3 with nanoperm it blocked all current flow nicely above 10 kHz and my grid watt meter did never show more than 7 watts. Well, meter is not very good, it can measure accurately only loads above 5 watts.  Also I did not notice anything special when connecting more load in the output, no need to retune it as it was just more resistive load. If the output lamp is not bright then current flow is not high and in this case those L2s cannot feed each other very well because there are no amps circulating in them. And amps are needed to magnetize the core. So best way to fail is to use low input power :-) Now that there were some amps in the L3 then output light was bright. Unfortunately amount of power in L3 is unknown.


Impulse response of the system would have been nice to see though. I put here a link to your video how to tune this in case someone else is interested in trying:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 11, 2014, 07:23:40 PM
I will continue to explore other things...
Gunderson patents?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 11, 2014, 08:56:03 PM
Thanks for your efforts Itsu.


Can you estimate what was the input power to L3 after the audio transformer as this is what comes in the system ?
If the load was disconnected your power amp still used lots of power due to impedance mismatch ?


I wonder what is the difference with your power amp compared to mine ? I don't have to use anything special after the amplifier. When I placed the L3 with nanoperm it blocked all current flow nicely above 10 kHz and my grid watt meter did never show more than 7 watts. Well, meter is not very good, it can measure accurately only loads above 5 watts.  Also I did not notice anything special when connecting more load in the output, no need to retune it as it was just more resistive load. If the output lamp is not bright then current flow is not high and in this case those L2s cannot feed each other very well because there are no amps circulating in them. And amps are needed to magnetize the core. So best way to fail is to use low input power :-) Now that there were some amps in the L3 then output light was bright. Unfortunately amount of power in L3 is unknown.


Impulse response of the system would have been nice to see though. I put here a link to your video how to tune this in case someone else is interested in trying:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for your understanding.

I made a last measurement with the same setup as in the last video and setup the power into the bulb to exactly measure 1W (500mW * 2).
Then i measured the input voltage across the L3 with the blue probe and measured the current there, see the picture for the outcome.
We have 581mW * 2 = 1.162W into the core/coil.

The PA is an XT800.2  automotiv MOSFET amplifier class AB at max. 50KHz.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 11, 2014, 09:04:16 PM
Gunderson patents?

Might be i good idea, i see you already found a thread for it here:

http://www.overunity.com/1297/graham-gundersons-dragless-generator-patent-lenz-law-violation/msg324252/#msg324252


According to Jack the drilling in the nanoperm should be no problem; good drill bit (diamond? or for ceramic tiles?) low speed and low pressure.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 12, 2014, 02:55:54 AM
According to Jack the drilling in the nanoperm should be no problem; good drill bit (diamond? or for ceramic tiles?) low speed and low pressure.
I was not writing about any particular one.  Gunderson patented two devices: Device 1 (http://www.overunity.com/14307/acoustic-magnetic-generator/msg388396/#msg388396) and Device 2 (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg390668/#msg390668).

IMO it is advantageous to keep magnetic flux paths closed in both of these devices.

P.S.
The first device seems to be related to the Davidson patent (http://www.overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/dlattach/attach/128521/) .
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 12, 2014, 07:09:19 AM
Thanks for your understanding.

I made a last measurement with the same setup as in the last video and setup the power into the bulb to exactly measure 1W (500mW * 2).
Then i measured the input voltage across the L3 with the blue probe and measured the current there, see the picture for the outcome.
We have 581mW * 2 = 1.162W into the core/coil.

The PA is an XT800.2  automotiv MOSFET amplifier class AB at max. 50KHz.

Regards Itsu


Seems to be close but no cigar.


Any idea how much power you can push through L3 ?
What is the watt ratting of light bulb in the output side ? It seems to be so bright that adding another should not be a problem. In my setup I put the 8 watt bulb first and then connected the 10 watt bulb on live circuit. Result was that 8 watt bulb dimmed a little when 10 watt bulb was lit. Nothing visible in input side 5 watt bulb.


As for the drilling, there needs to be something inside the toroid. When the blade comes through it will crack the epoxy unless there is wood or plastic taking the pressure from the drill. It should be interesting project, the coils on the holes behave funny. Magnetic loops are formed but not where one might expect. They always oppose the source even if there is 'free' path around the core. Flux seem to want balance in the core. This is why Gunderson uses magnets I quess': they form 'magnetic DC' bias in the core and then magnetic loops are formed elsewhere.



Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 12, 2014, 11:47:13 AM
Result was that 8 watt bulb dimmed a little when 10 watt bulb was lit. Nothing visible in input side 5 watt bulb.
Comparing the brightness of the output bulb to the brightness of the input bulb is tantamount to comparing Watts to Amps.
Meaningless mostly...

Flux seem to want balance in the core. This is why Gunderson uses magnets I quess': they form 'magnetic DC' bias in the core and then magnetic loops are formed elsewhere.
As I understand the patent of the 2nd device (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/msg390668/#msg390668), those magnets are merely sources of the vertical MMF. 
The author writes that the flux of these magnets (green) can take two paths through the core (see Fig.3 in the patent (http://www.overunity.com/14211/lenzless-resonant-transformer/dlattach/attach/133978/)) and the primary coil (coils) are a source of the controlling horizontal MMF and flux (blue) that switches the green flux between two alternate paths of equal reluctance.

The blue horizontal flux closes circumferentially through the core, while the green flux passes vertically/diagonally through the core but closes through air, which is bad, unless a low reluctance path is provided for it by an external permeable spool or pot core.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: itsu on March 12, 2014, 12:42:18 PM
Any idea how much power you can push through L3 ?
What is the watt ratting of light bulb in the output side ?


No, no idea what the max. value will be.
The watt ratings of these bulbs are 0.6W at 6V, so pushing them a lot with 1W.

Quote
As for the drilling, there needs to be something inside the toroid. When the blade comes through it will crack the epoxy unless there is wood or plastic taking the pressure from the drill.

Good info,  thanks.

Regards Itsu
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on March 12, 2014, 02:32:02 PM
Comparing the brightness of the output bulb to the brightness of the input bulb is tantamount to comparing Watts to Amps.
Meaningless mostly...


Here current and voltage are in the same phase in L3 because of resonance condition in the output. Does it make comparison any more meaningful in this case ?


Putting a diode bridge without smoothing cap in the input side should also make comparison easier ?
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: verpies on March 12, 2014, 06:48:43 PM
Here current and voltage are in the same phase in L3 because of resonance condition in the output. Does it make comparison any more meaningful in this case ?
No, because the I-V phase relationship is not the problem in this case.
The problem with the power indicator on the input side is the uneven power sharing between the indicator and the DUT (a 2-device problem according to MPTT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem#Maximizing_power_transfer_versus_power_efficiency) ) ...even if the DUT is a purely resistive load ( I & V in-phase).

On the output side this problem does not exist because the power indicator is the output DUT (a 1 resistive device problem).
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Magluvin on March 14, 2014, 12:29:06 AM
Check out Igors new vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBxUsfHHKrM

This guy is good..  What the heck is going on when he shorts the toroid?   That 1 wire of the system going through the toroid cant have that much induction for the shorting of the toroid winding to reduce the inductance of the single wire much hmm?

Hmm, ok. The single wire going through the toroid core is where the road block is, and shorting the toroid coil decreases that inductance and just allows the circuit to work as if the toroid core were not there. ;)


I wonder if he knows that?

Mags
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: hanon on April 19, 2014, 01:07:41 AM
Bidirectional transformer by Gennady Markov

http://www.hyiq.org/Downloads/Gennady%20Markov%20--%20bidirectional%20current%20transformer.doc (http://www.hyiq.org/Downloads/Gennady%20Markov%20--%20bidirectional%20current%20transformer.doc)

Also see patent EP0844626
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on April 22, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
He is using same kind of connection for primary as I am using for secondaries. I have the experimental caduceus wound core which I can use to test just like in the patent. It has four coils of exactly same length. I can also try low and higher voltages.


I think what is deliberately missing is the parallel capacitor in the primary, or he is using such a high frequency that cap is not needed as the primary coils give the necessary capacitance.


Not sure when I have time to test but I will test it eventually.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: Jack Noskills on November 13, 2014, 05:56:17 PM
Some pictures, E-I core in progress, all L2 coils 45 turns of 0.3 mm wire. L1 coil about 110 turns.[/size]


Picture of a system in action. Middle L2 coil 20 turns of 0.75 mm wire, outer L2 coils 45 turns of 0.3mm wire. I made isolated tank circuit from middle L2 coil using 6 uf worth of capacitors, then a series resonant circuit from outer coils using 3 uf capacitors. The outer L2 coils were connected in parallel. Combined LC in both circuits should be the same for best result so 23 turns of middle L2 would have been correct, or 40 turns in outer coils.


What happened is this:
Input 6 watt halogen brightness remained the same with or without load (10 and 8 watt halogen bulbs). Shorting the output also seemed to have no effect.
Adding capacitors bring resonant frequency down and increase output power.
My E-I core was not perfect, it initially had an air gap which I tried to remove by grinding.
I did not achieve resonance since my equipment is limited to 20 KHz. I would have needed more capacitors to bring resonant frequency down.
I used 10 meters of 0.31 mm wire as L1. First I wound one layer (45 turns) and rest of wire was unused, still part of L1. Input side bulb lit brightly and less light on the output side. Next I completed the rest of wire so there was about 110 turns in L1 and result is what is shown in the picture. Adding more turns in L1 until input current was minimized works best.


I tested also using same amount of turns (45) in all L2 coils but it was not as good. Next I tested using thicker 0.7 mm wire, 20 turns in every coil. I got the same effect but I did not have enough capacitors to bring resonance frequency below 20 kHz.


This also seemed to work without series caps in the output, just isolated tank circuit and outer output coils directly to load (parallel connected as before). There is also option to connect paralleled side L2 coils in series with capacitor and middle coil which has parallel capacitor.


One test was 200 turns in every L2 coil. I got resonance using 0.5 uf cap but not as much light at output.


Without scope it is impossible to say what is the best option, more experimentation is needed here. This seems to work best when using high impedance input L1 coil and low impedance and high capacitance in the L2 side. Then look for resonance.


I hope this information encourages someone else to try this. My input was from audio amplifier, sine wave AC output as before. Pulsing did not work well.
Title: Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
Post by: darediamond on September 22, 2016, 05:36:07 AM
For a certainty, to achieve overunity in applying Motionless Motor Generator Design, Square Core or Toroid must be applied, Twisted Serially Connected Multifillar Wire must be applied in Primary, High Voltage Must be applied in Primary, Thick Gauge Must be applied in the splited secondary(as thick as you can get), The primary must be driven with High Frequency(optional if you apply heavy Multifillar Wire), High Frequency Core Must be applied.
When you negate Lenz with your winding style, you have then open the gate for prospective endless inflow of Energy.
By prospective it means that Lenz negation is not enough to achieve overunity. You MUST obey other accocited rules which I have aforementioned.

The application of High Voltage is Necessary because in addition to  high frequency drive, it hejlps drive the air-base electrons Nuts as the Primary will be able to now draw them to the partnered output coils MASSIVELY. Once those enticed Radiant electrons arrived you must be ready to give them there proper place to place the Goodies theynbring along for you which means you must use Very Thick Gauge in the Splited oppositely wound secondaries.

The application of High Frequency will mandate a Cool running very blow amp draw primary.

The primary is best wound in Inverter transformer way though optional.

Make sure you use Big or Large Ferrite C-Cores so as avoid Saturation as the Flux from your HV HF driven Multifillar Wire wire wound Primary will be Enormous.

The essence of of Enormous Flux is that, the Free Air base Electrons will be superbly Enticed and "STICK"/to your Secondaries because you are FEEDING THEM WELL as you drive them higher with High. Speed or Frequency. This Air-base electrons like no dull moments at all.

Just create the appropriate Environment for them and we what they will do for you.

You can do better.