Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 524080
  • *Total Topics: 15602
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 0
  • *Guests: 10
  • *Total: 10

Author Topic: Lenzless resonant transformer  (Read 143228 times)

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #180 on: March 08, 2014, 08:49:29 PM »
Itsu:

In the case of the high resonance frequency and high resonance voltage you have this:

L1 and L2 are connected to cancel each other's flux through the toroid (wires crossed), hence you measure very low inductance from the "outside"  (the inductance meter).
However, funky L3 produces "clockwise" flux in L1 and "counter-clockwise" flux in the toroid at the same time.  This produces opposite EMFs in each coil, but since the wires are crossed the EMFs match each other (they don't cancel each other out).
So you end up with a situation where L3 can induce large EMFs in the cross-wired L1 and L2 (the toroid is effectively split into two by L3) and at the same time from the perspective of measuring the inductance from the "outside" you have the flux cancellation (the toroid is a single contiguous toroid.)

Effectively, you have lost the "Big L" do to the toroid.  It is split into two "small L's" by funky L3 and you get a high resonance frequency.

In the case of the low resonance frequency and low resonance voltage you have:

In this case L1 and L2 are wired correctly so when seen from the "outside"  (the inductance meter) you measure high inductance.  Note again that in this case the toroid is seen as a single contiguous toroid and there is no flux cancellation.
However, funky L3 is still splitting the toroid into to halves.  The EMF induced into L1 is the opposite of the EMF induced into L2 and as a result they nearly completely cancel each other out.

Here is where it gets a bit subtle and perhaps Verpies can comment in case I am wrong.  It appears that you still have a "Big L" and a low resonance frequency, but the EMFs from L1 and L2 cancel and you get almost no voltage output.

I will do my rant again:  The way L3 is set up is completely and totally nonsensical.  Likewise every second transformer or magnetic circuit that you see on the forums has a bloody magnet or magnets as part of the magnetic circuit.  This is also completely and totally nonsensical.  Magnets produce "DC" magnetic flux and magnetic circuits and coils ONLY RESPOND TO AC excitation.  The only thing the magnets do is degrade the performance of the cores.  There may be be some tiny niche applications for magnets in this context but I am not talking about that.  Whenever you see some free energy proposition with a magnetic component with magnets in the circuit to "compress the fields" or whatever you can consider it to be B.S.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #180 on: March 08, 2014, 08:49:29 PM »

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1817
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #181 on: March 08, 2014, 10:29:03 PM »

Here is where it gets a bit subtle and perhaps Verpies can comment in case I am wrong.  It appears that you still have a "Big L" and a low resonance frequency, but the EMFs from L1 and L2 cancel and you get almost no voltage output.



Ok, so the very low voltages (500mV pp) at this low frequency which inhibits the output bulb ( see video below) to even glow comes from this L3 canceling the EMF's.
I could test this by using another coil (L4), but now normally wound like the secondary coils and use that as injector coil for the FG.


Just before your comment, i did some measurements with the both secondary coils in aiding parallel.
They now resonate at 174Hz, but with very low signals and the bulb is not lit.

When i now want for L3 also to resonate at 174Hz, it means i have to add 830uF of (bipolar) capacitance to L3 (1mH).
I don't think this is a practical way so this means to me that Jack did test his setup with the both secondaries in opposing parallel
setup like i had yesterday.

Jack did mention in post #167 something about adding another 1000nF cap, but this was when he was using opposing (10KHz resonance) parallel coils.
Adding more capacitance in aiding mode only lowers the resonance frequency even more.

So opposing parallel is the way to go?

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v77XLg__nPw&feature=youtu.be

Regards itsu

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1817
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #182 on: March 09, 2014, 11:52:25 AM »

My idea of these low voltages on this low frequency is that it is caused by the low inductive reactance of this 1mH L3 coil at 174Hz which according to:
http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/reactance-calculator.php is:   XL = 1.093 Ohms

This seems to be confirmed by the low input voltage from the FG as can be seen in the clip above.

I guess i will have to hurry up on my build on these EL2009's verpies mentioned or use an imt (impedance matching transformer) to transform the 50 Ohm of the FG to the 1 Ohm of the L3


Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #182 on: March 09, 2014, 11:52:25 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #183 on: March 10, 2014, 06:25:06 AM »
Itsu:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

In clip #17, you are stating that there is a huge voltage drop across the function generator output when it drives the setup.  As you know the L1 and L2 are in an aiding configuration from point of view of the inductance meter, but when driven by L3 the EMFs are opposite at they create a short.  So I am assuming that a somewhat high current is flowing through the L1-L2 loop.  Note that L1 + L2 alone forms a big resistor.  That current may be higher than the current going through the capacitor.

So that represents a big load on L3, which then causes a big load on the signal generator output.  That's an impedance mismatch with the 50-ohm output of the function generator so not much power is flowing.

What surprises me how much of a load (low impedance) the circuit represents.  I was figuring that the L3 coupling might not be that good, but thinking about it again, perhaps better than I thought.  L3 looks like a regular coil with a cylindrical core.  The "cylindrical core" is the toroid of course.  That volume of magnetic material may store enough energy to create that heavy load, even though the return flux path has to go through the high reluctance air.  Perhaps measuring some of the currents would be interesting.

If you added a "normal" L4 you would indeed see much different results.  The L1 and L2 would work together from both sides of the coin, as seen by the inductance meter, and also as 'seen' by L4.

All in all, it looks like the setup is a very low impedance AC load.  More power is being burned off in the function generator resistor than the circuit.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #184 on: March 10, 2014, 06:40:32 AM »
Note that you have the voltage drop in in the function generator no load vs. load.  That gives you the data to measure the AC impedance of the circuit as a whole.  How does that compare to the reactance calculation?

P.S.:  On second thought I am not sure what I said above is a valid comparison.  The pure reactance of the inductor is a different thing than the inductor driving a magnetically coupled load.  In the former case you will see the 90 degree phase lag in the current because of the pure inductance.  I believe in the latter case you would see a much smaller the phase shift between voltage and current because of the resistive load being coupled back to the source and dominating.  I am thinking that the resistive load from the wire resistance in L1 and L2 is what dominates.  Then there is the cap to consider.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #184 on: March 10, 2014, 06:40:32 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #185 on: March 10, 2014, 12:58:35 PM »

Itsu,
Opposing parallel coils and high frequency resonance is the way to go.


Can you feed L3 using your power amp ? In my testing pushing little power had no effect, I had to use more power. I quess I was using 1-2 watts. How many amps can go through a 5 watt/12 volt halogen without any sign of light or heat in it ? That was the amount of power I was pushing in.


Don Smith used NST (35 kHz, 30 mA and 2000  volts or so), only a few turn coils on a Metglass C core (high permeability). Now we know that when L2s oppose their resonant frequency will be higher so 35 kHz drive is reasonable with only few turns. Drive signal was passed via diode so it was clipped to half cycle sine, resembling pulse.


Don also used small capacitor parallel to L3 and spark (GDT) between C and L, the well known Tesla circuit. So he was smacking the L3 with a strong pulse which gives amps and voltage for a short period of time. This will make L2s ring at their own (high) resonant frequency. When next kick comes in correct time (L3 subharmonic resonance) then L2s keep on ringing. While L2s ring, the L3 is disconnected from the system because spark is not conducting.


C in L3 must be small enough so that it charges enough to jump the GDT, this depends on the amps coming from the source.


Before we start messing around with sparks, we could check what happens in L2s when L3 is driven with a pulse. No capacitor needed in L3, possibly a rectifying diode is needed there but I don't know for sure. Purpose is to see how long those L2s ring, to get impulse response of the system. Width of the pulse could be varied. Frequency of the drive could be sub harmonic of L2 resonant frequency. It should be interesting to see what happens in L2s when the next pulse comes from L3 before oscillations have died out in L2s.


Now there is some DC resistance so I don't expect L2s to ring for long, but still longer compared to just one L2 coil only. Maybe this could be compared ?


There are two options, two LC tanks in the output or one LC tank combined from two coils. I think two separate L2s are better when driving with a pulse.


If results are interesting (tubular L2 waveform) then maybe it is time to make second similar setup but using thickest wire you got and only few turns for each coil, 10 turns is a nice round figure. If DC resistance of the coil is dropped 100 times then DC resistance is not eating up the power any more in significant amount, Q-factor will also increase giving better resonant rise.


Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #186 on: March 11, 2014, 12:58:51 AM »
Jack:

I don't have the right to speak for Itsu, but let me say my piece.  This one is a done deal, it's dead.  Your last posting was over the top, and all over the map, you are designing a new setup by trial and error.  At this point I suggest that you build something yourself.  If you have theories about how some kind of transformer circuit will operate, then draw up some timing diagrams and then check the operation of the circuit against your timing diagrams.  I know that "timing diagrams" is a hot potato term because people can talk a blue streak about the hypothetical operation of a circuit, but then when you ask them to make up a timing diagram they clam up right away and say nothing.  It means they are not capable of taking their "talk the talk" and actually walking the walk.

Pumping more power into a circuit will not make it all of a sudden work.  When you play with transformers you could end up saturating the cores and then the currents will jump up and get very high.  I saw on another thread where you posted and you have some quite radical ideas about transformers and related stuff and how they work.  The honest truth is that you can't get more power out of a transformer than you pump into it.  It might be a bitter pill to swallow but it's the truth.

I am not in any way trying to discourage you from doing tests and trying out circuits and all that jazz.  The key thing is that the circuit won't ever lie, it will simply do what it is supposed to do.  It's interpretation of what it is actually doing where things sometimes go amiss.

Going back to one of my earlier points, suppose you dream up some simple transformer circuit.  The challenge for you is to work out the timing diagram(s) of how it will operate _before_ you hook up your signal generator and scope probes to it.  If you can't do it that should, in the best case, motivate you to start surfing the net or buy some books, etc.  It makes no sense to design a circuit and then claim that you can't make up a timing diagram for the circuit.

Let's assume that you make a timing diagram for a circuit and then you build it and check it out with your scope.  If it checks out and the timing is as per your timing diagrams, good for you.  If it doesn't check out and your timing diagrams are way off, then that should motivate you to start probing around with your scope probe until you figure out the operation of the circuit.

Trust me, these kinds of circuits are all about the timing.  Timing is king and if you don't understand the timing, then you don't understand the circuit.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #186 on: March 11, 2014, 12:58:51 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #187 on: March 11, 2014, 07:46:11 AM »
My problem is that I don't have a scope and cannot get one.


So I was asking for impulse response of the L2 coils so we all could learn from it as we have learned so far. Waveform should be tubular in this case. Why ? Because in plain LC circuit the bell shape waveform does not come from DC resistance alone, it comes mainly from self induction. For example, when DC resistance of a coil is close to zero, then ringing still dies out fast because of self induction. Higher the L then faster the oscillation dampens. Information that I have read from text books say oscillation dampens because of DC resistance only, not a word on self induction. Here we have two L2s working together and inductance is in micro henries so it will oscillate many times while at the same time they create energy in the series capacitor, which is then used by the load. Bigger the capacitor more energy we can collect.



Last night I figured it out how Don used the drive, it is not just a plain LC with spark gap but a little more. We already have L3 that rings with the same frequency as L2s and when power is taken L3 stays in resonance. This is the key and these were shown in Itsu's videos. Now this C3-L3 combo needs to be kicked with a pulse, it starts ringing and then it can be kicked at some lower subharmonic of resonant frequency. So the drive is basic Tesla type C-spark-L with steroids, L is replaced with L3-C3 and there must be diode after the spark. Otherwise C3 in the L3 will discharge over spark back to C on the other side.


Of course spark can be replaced with a solid state switch, then there is no need for pulse drive but DC is enough. The solid state switch then controls how kicks are applied to L3-C3.


Result is that there will now be free oscillation in L3-C3 tank and it will oscillate many times for free because it's L is low => self induction is low => oscillation dampening is low. Little power is then needed to keep this oscillation going on to feed the L2s which create the power which can be used.


Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1817
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #188 on: March 11, 2014, 10:58:04 AM »
Jack:

I don't have the right to speak for Itsu, but let me say my piece.  This one is a done deal, it's dead.  Your last posting was over the top, and all over the map, you are designing a new setup by trial and error.  At this point I suggest that you build something yourself.  If you have theories about how some kind of transformer circuit will operate, then draw up some timing diagrams and then check the operation of the circuit against your timing diagrams.  I know that "timing diagrams" is a hot potato term because people can talk a blue streak about the hypothetical operation of a circuit, but then when you ask them to make up a timing diagram they clam up right away and say nothing.  It means they are not capable of taking their "talk the talk" and actually walking the walk.



I have once again to agree with MileHigh here.
When you dragged in Don Smith and all these idea's about pulsing etc. i knew you need to set up your own bench and start
experimenting yourself as you are still full of vague concepts of transformers and abnormal behaviour.

I wrote up a response, but decided to sleep over it as i don't like to make impulsive reactions, but my opinion has not changed.
See that reaction below.

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #188 on: March 11, 2014, 10:58:04 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1817
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #189 on: March 11, 2014, 10:59:27 AM »

Jack,
I followed your last suggestion by powering the core in opposing parallel setup again but now with my power amp.

The problem with this is that for the PA to properly work i need to transform the low 4 Ohm output to a higher value (L3 at 32KHz = 200 Ohm)
As i have only a fixed transformer (4 Ohm to 6600 Ohm) we introduce yet another mismatch.

The bulb in the output now is much brighter, but probably due to the higher filament resistance or whatever, the resonance frequency
shifted from 17KHz to around 30KHz.

Input into the bulb about 1W.    Input into the PA is 105W!

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsHu0wOZSko&feature=youtu.be


I think it is pointless to continue this as all seems to be perfectly explainable and no abnormalities can be found.
Its becoming a neverending story with continued side steps and i see you still have a lot of new ideas, but i don't
want to invest any more of my time in it.

My advice is that if you are convinced that there must be something special you invest some money in a decent oscilloscope
and start testing/measuring yourselve.

I will continue to explore other things which will use up the little free time i have.

Regards Itsu

 

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #190 on: March 11, 2014, 01:07:24 PM »
Thanks for your efforts Itsu.


Can you estimate what was the input power to L3 after the audio transformer as this is what comes in the system ?
If the load was disconnected your power amp still used lots of power due to impedance mismatch ?


I wonder what is the difference with your power amp compared to mine ? I don't have to use anything special after the amplifier. When I placed the L3 with nanoperm it blocked all current flow nicely above 10 kHz and my grid watt meter did never show more than 7 watts. Well, meter is not very good, it can measure accurately only loads above 5 watts.  Also I did not notice anything special when connecting more load in the output, no need to retune it as it was just more resistive load. If the output lamp is not bright then current flow is not high and in this case those L2s cannot feed each other very well because there are no amps circulating in them. And amps are needed to magnetize the core. So best way to fail is to use low input power :-) Now that there were some amps in the L3 then output light was bright. Unfortunately amount of power in L3 is unknown.


Impulse response of the system would have been nice to see though. I put here a link to your video how to tune this in case someone else is interested in trying:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #190 on: March 11, 2014, 01:07:24 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3464
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #191 on: March 11, 2014, 07:23:40 PM »
I will continue to explore other things...
Gunderson patents?

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1817
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #192 on: March 11, 2014, 08:56:03 PM »
Thanks for your efforts Itsu.


Can you estimate what was the input power to L3 after the audio transformer as this is what comes in the system ?
If the load was disconnected your power amp still used lots of power due to impedance mismatch ?


I wonder what is the difference with your power amp compared to mine ? I don't have to use anything special after the amplifier. When I placed the L3 with nanoperm it blocked all current flow nicely above 10 kHz and my grid watt meter did never show more than 7 watts. Well, meter is not very good, it can measure accurately only loads above 5 watts.  Also I did not notice anything special when connecting more load in the output, no need to retune it as it was just more resistive load. If the output lamp is not bright then current flow is not high and in this case those L2s cannot feed each other very well because there are no amps circulating in them. And amps are needed to magnetize the core. So best way to fail is to use low input power :-) Now that there were some amps in the L3 then output light was bright. Unfortunately amount of power in L3 is unknown.


Impulse response of the system would have been nice to see though. I put here a link to your video how to tune this in case someone else is interested in trying:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE7tAbYRg7w&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for your understanding.

I made a last measurement with the same setup as in the last video and setup the power into the bulb to exactly measure 1W (500mW * 2).
Then i measured the input voltage across the L3 with the blue probe and measured the current there, see the picture for the outcome.
We have 581mW * 2 = 1.162W into the core/coil.

The PA is an XT800.2  automotiv MOSFET amplifier class AB at max. 50KHz.

Regards Itsu

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1817
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #193 on: March 11, 2014, 09:04:16 PM »
Gunderson patents?

Might be i good idea, i see you already found a thread for it here:

http://www.overunity.com/1297/graham-gundersons-dragless-generator-patent-lenz-law-violation/msg324252/#msg324252


According to Jack the drilling in the nanoperm should be no problem; good drill bit (diamond? or for ceramic tiles?) low speed and low pressure.

Regards Itsu

Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3464
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #194 on: March 12, 2014, 02:55:54 AM »
According to Jack the drilling in the nanoperm should be no problem; good drill bit (diamond? or for ceramic tiles?) low speed and low pressure.
I was not writing about any particular one.  Gunderson patented two devices: Device 1 and Device 2.

IMO it is advantageous to keep magnetic flux paths closed in both of these devices.

P.S.
The first device seems to be related to the Davidson patent .

 

OneLink