Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 522071
  • *Total Topics: 15554
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 0
  • *Guests: 9
  • *Total: 9

Author Topic: Lenzless resonant transformer  (Read 141668 times)

Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2014, 02:16:25 PM »
Over at OUR in a private group there was already some research done on pot-cores, and it turned out that the larges
pot-core found then was od 47mm, see 3th link:
I was hoping that someone else would invest their time in searching for a large pot cores besides you.
Anyway the largest one I was able to find so far was 150mm OD.  See here.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2014, 02:16:25 PM »

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #136 on: March 04, 2014, 03:29:32 PM »
"amplify each other", well normally you need input for something to amplify, so i am still not sure how this should work.

Anyway, i finished the 3 coil setup on the nanoperm core, any suggestions on how/what to connect to fullfill the above situation?
Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbqDckFNtSg&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu



Do the same test as you did last with 2*200 turn ferrite ring:


Feed the L3 with your signal generator.
One secondary L2 is electrically isolated LC and on the other LC you connect load bulb same as before.


Can you see secondary resonance occurring ? If not, then power amp is needed to drive L3. Secondary resonance did not occur with 2*200 setup without power amp, so maybe this thing needs amps and not volts to drive it. Would make sense as amps are needed to magnetize core.


If L3 is without a cap, then does it block current at secondary resonance (which should be around 10 kHz with this setup) ?
If it does not block then resonant cap is needed in L3 to drop current consumption. 90 turns L3 blocked in my setup, and resonant cap improved the output power.


If cap is not used, then current consumption in L3 should not change when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?
If resonant cap is placed in L3 (tuned to found secondary resonance), then resonance in L3 should remain when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?


It would be interesting to see what happens in the isolated LC at secondary resonance with this setup, with and without load.


Offline tak22

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 321
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #137 on: March 04, 2014, 06:11:40 PM »
oops. drink coffee, then post. sorry I see you already found the EPCOS.


EPCOS makes pot cores up to 150mm, but I'm not sure the geometry is exactly what you need?


Search for part # B65949A0000X027


tak

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #137 on: March 04, 2014, 06:11:40 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1816
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #138 on: March 04, 2014, 11:21:32 PM »


Do the same test as you did last with 2*200 turn ferrite ring:


Feed the L3 with your signal generator.
One secondary L2 is electrically isolated LC and on the other LC you connect load bulb same as before.


Can you see secondary resonance occurring ? If not, then power amp is needed to drive L3. Secondary resonance did not occur with 2*200 setup without power amp, so maybe this thing needs amps and not volts to drive it. Would make sense as amps are needed to magnetize core.


If L3 is without a cap, then does it block current at secondary resonance (which should be around 10 kHz with this setup) ?
If it does not block then resonant cap is needed in L3 to drop current consumption. 90 turns L3 blocked in my setup, and resonant cap improved the output power.


If cap is not used, then current consumption in L3 should not change when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?
If resonant cap is placed in L3 (tuned to found secondary resonance), then resonance in L3 should remain when other L2 is loaded, does it happen ?


It would be interesting to see what happens in the isolated LC at secondary resonance with this setup, with and without load.

I did not have much time for testing, but i managed to do the first setup like mentioned above.

L3 has the FG input, and it seems that the both secondaries resonante at 4.8KHz.

The current in the left secondary stays stable, so nothing is blocked.

So the next step would be to have L3 resonate using a capacitor on this 4.8KHz, to see what happens with the current,  right?

 
Regards Itsu

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2014, 08:05:59 AM »
I did not have much time for testing, but i managed to do the first setup like mentioned above.

L3 has the FG input, and it seems that the both secondaries resonante at 4.8KHz.

The current in the left secondary stays stable, so nothing is blocked.

So the next step would be to have L3 resonate using a capacitor on this 4.8KHz, to see what happens with the current,  right?

 
Regards Itsu



By blocking I meant blocking of primary, the L3.


Yes, resonate L3 using a capacitor on 4.8 kHz. If possible, try also putting input signal through power amp. My reasoning here is that according to verpies at resonance core is not necessarily saturated if drive current is too low. For example 4.8 kHz at 5 A/5V has much more effect on the core compared to 4.8 kHz at 50 mA/500 V. Which I think is weird but so it seems to be.


4.8 kHz is way below what I got ( about 11 kHz), there are two differences compared to my setup. I used 0.31 mm wire and you used 0.4 mm wire. Second difference is that I used two wires side by side, a bifilar test coil, with one coil unused so wires were further apart. These might explain the difference. No need to change anything in current setup, just wanted to mention this.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2014, 08:05:59 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline verpies

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2014, 04:22:13 PM »
according to verpies at resonance core is not necessarily saturated if drive current is too low.
That's true for a series LC circuit.
For parallel LC circuit, the drive current can be low but the LC circulation current can be high.

Offline itsu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1816
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #141 on: March 06, 2014, 12:01:39 AM »

Ok,  i tried severall things as requested, but it does not stay stable.
Whenever i change something in a coil, the other coils are out of their resonance.

When doing a resonance test for one of the secondary coils (feeding a signal in from L3), i HAVE to disconnect the cap from the other secondary.
It then shows correct resonance as compared to a resonance calculator on the web (around 157Hz).

But when hooking up again the other cap, the resonance frequency shoots up to 6.6KHz.

Same when i hook up a bulb in the right secondary, it changes the left secondary resonance once again to 4.8KHz, while the resonance of the right secondary
which contains the bulb now shoots up to 11KHz judging at the peak light in the bulb.

In this last situation we have different resonance frequencies between the both secondary coils.
When i now also add some capacitance to L3, the circus is changing once again

I feel like the guy in the drawing

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vat5Z9gfuwM&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #141 on: March 06, 2014, 12:01:39 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #142 on: March 06, 2014, 01:17:17 AM »
That's true for a series LC circuit.
For parallel LC circuit, the drive current can be low but the LC circulation current can be high.

So maybe try to put the 2 coils wound on each side of the core in series with 1 cap, or a cap on each connection(should be the same thing if the 2 caps were 2 times the uf as the 1 cap).

Connections of the coils may have to be tried in reverse if nothing happens.

Then instead of trying to load one of the 2 coils, wind a 4th coil(3rd being the outer coil as shown earlier) and try loading that when the 1 and 2 coils, really 1 bigger coil, are in resonance.
Loading the 4th coil will change the resonant freq, so once a load is chosen, adjust the freq in accordingly for that load.

3 ways to wind the 4th coil

1  wind it in either area where coils 1 and 2 are not, the open spaces between 1 and 2, and test.

2  wind 2 coils, each on top of 1 and 2 coils, then series them to be 1 coil, and test

3  add an additional core to the winding in way 1.  We use another core(doesnt have to be the same as the main core) where we wind the wire through the main core and through the second core. So through main core, through second core, through the main core and through the second core till done. Space the second core a bit, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 in. from the main core, in a position that makes what looks like a figure 8 or a snow man.  ;D   The addition of the second core to the 4th winding will allow the 4th coil to be loaded without disturbing the resonance of coils 1 and 2.   ;)


I would go for way 3 , as I think loading any coil on the main core will kill resonance of the resonating coils. ;)   We all know that there appears to be more going on in resonance compared to the input. The trouble is extracting that larger energy. Seems no matter what we do, loading kills off the resonance or alters the freq drastically and the freq would have to change with varying loads. But if we can extract without killing the resonance, then that is the path I would take. ;)

Ive tested the multi core described in  the PDF "Classic Flux Anomaly" I presented earlier, no resonance based tests at the time, and when loading the secondary that has 2 magnetic circuits, the idle primary input is reduced as compared to no loading of the secondary. Loading the secondary increases the inductance of the primary, which is opposite of what we are used to. ;)

In the pdf it states that loading the secondary doesnt kill the primary if in resonance. It may change the primary freq due to increasing the primary inductance, not sure. Havnt gotten to try that part yet. Plan to.  ;)

Mags


Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #143 on: March 06, 2014, 03:31:31 AM »
Something to add here.

The multi core transformer, 1 primary on the main core, and the secondary looped through the main core and a second core, loading the secondary does lower the input in reference to primary idle current. But the PDF states that you wont get more out than in, even under the extraordinary conditions it provides. 

The possible key here is extracting from that larger elevation of the resonance. Many say that there is elevation in activity at resonance, but extracting it is problematic. 

Well, Im thinking this dual core is the way to go.  ;)


Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #143 on: March 06, 2014, 03:31:31 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #144 on: March 06, 2014, 04:39:54 AM »
Itsu:

I may have the beginnings of the answer to the mystery of why the resonance frequency jumps up so high when you are driving both secondary tank circuits.  It's an incomplete answer and I am feeling my limitations.  (I think I just figured out the key clue, you may be able to confirm it for yourself.)

For starters we know that the angular resonance frequency of an LC tank circuit is 1/Sqrt(LC).

Since the resonance frequency jumps up very high when you connect the two separate series tank circuits, let's make the assumption that the effective L decreases dramatically when both tank circuits are connected.

Now here is a thought experiment:  Remove both capacitors and drive the setup through L3 like normal.  We now have a transformer setup with L1 and L2 as secondaries, with a "bizarre" core that resembles a "cylinder" inside the L3 coil.  The "top" of the "cylinder" is the upper exposed blue toroid.  The "bottom" of the "cylinder" is the lower exposed blue toroid.  Lines of magnetic flux travel through the air between the "top" and "bottom" of the "cylinder."

Let's suppose that L1 and L2 generate perfectly matched EMF.  If we connect the L1 and L2 outputs together so that they are in phase, then it still looks like an open circuit "pair of secondaries."  The EMFs match and no current flows through L1 and L2.

Conversely, if we connect L1 and L2 together so that they are out of phase, then you will have an AC short circuit, lots of current will flow through L1 and L2, that will be reflected to L3, so that the signal generator will see L3 looking like a heavy load.  Since there is no closed loop magnetic circuit for the core, it looks like a somewhat heavy load to the signal generator and not a near-AC short-circuit condition.  If you had a true closed-loop toroidal core for L3 then it would look like much more of an AC short-circuit.  (In the past few minutes I am very confident I figured it out, and that last sentence is the big clue, but moving on....)

We know that if you have an AC short circuit, that looks like L=0.   However, we are in the real world, and the EMFs generated by L1 and L2 will not exactly match.  Lo and behold with EMFs that don't exactly match, it looks like L is very small.  That would translate into a much higher resonant frequency, so it looks like we may be on the right track.

To be continued...

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #145 on: March 06, 2014, 05:10:09 AM »
Okay so let's look at the case in your clip where you have both the left series LC tank circuit and the right series LC tank circuit running.

The first thought that probably came to your mind is that the both should resonate at about 157 Hz and you should see about the same resonant frequency.  But that didn't happen, it almost looks like the case I mentioned were you connect the two EMFs in opposite phase, cause an AC short, reduce the effective L to almost nothing, and get the high resonant frequency.

It looks like the two secondaries are shorted together in a bad way but we can clearly see that they are not shorted so what gives?

The answer is that the magnetic counter-flux from each LC resonator IS shorting through the closed-loop toroidal core!   We have a magnetic circuit short instead of an electrical EMF short!  It's effectively the same thing.

What is the root cause?  The root cause is that silly nonsensical L3 coil that straddles the toroidal core.  I already discussed the magnetic circuit for that core when it is being driven by L3.  I said that the magnetic flux leaves the "top blue" travels through the air, and then enters the "bottom blue."

Here is what I did not say:  When L3 drives the toroidal core as a quasi-cylindrical core, the left half of the toroid has CLOCKWISE flux, and the right half of the toroid has COUNTER-CLOCKWISE flux at the same time.  It's totally nonsensical!

Therefore, when L1 and L2 are in "normal resonance" at 157 Hz, the counter flux generated by each winding is CONNECTED by the toroidal core and you get a near-perfect MAGNETIC FLUX SELF-CANCELLATION, a magnetic SHORT.  Hence, for ALL AC excitation frequencies, there is a near magnetic short-circuit and the effective inductance L is reduced to a very small value.  If L1 and L2 were a perfect match, the self-resonant frequency would be "infinity" (divide by zero.)

So this one was "revenge of the nonsensical L3 and associated magnetic circuit - explained."

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #145 on: March 06, 2014, 05:10:09 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #146 on: March 06, 2014, 05:16:22 AM »
Itsu:

I may have the beginnings of the answer to the mystery of why the resonance frequency jumps up so high when you are driving both secondary tank circuits.  It's an incomplete answer and I am feeling my limitations.  (I think I just figured out the key clue, you may be able to confirm it for yourself.)

For starters we know that the angular resonance frequency of an LC tank circuit is 1/Sqrt(LC).

Since the resonance frequency jumps up very high when you connect the two separate series tank circuits, let's make the assumption that the effective L decreases dramatically when both tank circuits are connected.

Now here is a thought experiment:  Remove both capacitors and drive the setup through L3 like normal.  We now have a transformer setup with L1 and L2 as secondaries, with a "bizarre" core that resembles a "cylinder" inside the L3 coil.  The "top" of the "cylinder" is the upper exposed blue toroid.  The "bottom" of the "cylinder" is the lower exposed blue toroid.  Lines of magnetic flux travel through the air between the "top" and "bottom" of the "cylinder."

Let's suppose that L1 and L2 generate perfectly matched EMF.  If we connect the L1 and L2 outputs together so that they are in phase, then it still looks like an open circuit "pair of secondaries."  The EMFs match and no current flows through L1 and L2.

Conversely, if we connect L1 and L2 together so that they are out of phase, then you will have an AC short circuit, lots of current will flow through L1 and L2, that will be reflected to L3, so that the signal generator will see L3 looking like a heavy load.  Since there is no closed loop magnetic circuit for the core, it looks like a somewhat heavy load to the signal generator and not a near-AC short-circuit condition.  If you had a true closed-loop toroidal core for L3 then it would look like much more of an AC short-circuit.  (In the past few minutes I am very confident I figured it out, and that last sentence is the big clue, but moving on....)

We know that if you have an AC short circuit, that looks like L=0.   However, we are in the real world, and the EMFs generated by L1 and L2 will not exactly match.  Lo and behold with EMFs that don't exactly match, it looks like L is very small.  That would translate into a much higher resonant frequency, so it looks like we may be on the right track.

To be continued...

MileHigh

"Conversely, if we connect L1 and L2 together so that they are out of phase, then you will have an AC short circuit, lots of current will flow through L1 and L2, that will be reflected to L3, so that the signal generator will see L3 looking like a heavy load."

L3 is induced very little if any by currents in L1 and/or L2. It s an asymmetric transformer and L3 is the primary. No other use for it in this configuration.  ;)

Mags

Offline MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #147 on: March 06, 2014, 05:19:37 AM »
I told you to never interact with me on this forum again.  The worst behaviour that I have ever seen on this forum was from you bashing me repeatedly and relentlessly.

Do not engage with me on the forum.

Offline Magluvin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #148 on: March 06, 2014, 05:58:28 AM »
I told you to never interact with me on this forum again.  The worst behaviour that I have ever seen on this forum was from you bashing me repeatedly and relentlessly.

Do not engage with me on the forum.

These are your words....

http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg388214/#msg388214

 " At the same time there is freedom to comment in both senses "



http://www.overunity.com/7679/selfrunning-free-energy-devices-up-to-5-kw-from-tariel-kapanadze/msg388214/#msg388214


It's a good thing that people can comment.


http://www.overunity.com/14128/an-interesting-phenomenon-i-found/msg388223/#msg388223

People can try whatever they want, and also get comments from people with differing views


So dont give me the 'I told you this and I told you that.' 

You either stand buy your own words or YOU can stop commenting on my posts, like you just did before this one.  (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)   Go ahead. Tell Stefan.  You have no rights to restrict me from posting as I please. I called you no names.  I have as much posting "freedom" as YOU.  So if you want to make a complaint, Ill meet you in pm and we can discuss this with Stefan. I have no problem with that. (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags

Offline Jack Noskills

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #149 on: March 06, 2014, 07:44:43 AM »
Ok,  i tried severall things as requested, but it does not stay stable.
Whenever i change something in a coil, the other coils are out of their resonance.

When doing a resonance test for one of the secondary coils (feeding a signal in from L3), i HAVE to disconnect the cap from the other secondary.
It then shows correct resonance as compared to a resonance calculator on the web (around 157Hz).

But when hooking up again the other cap, the resonance frequency shoots up to 6.6KHz.

Same when i hook up a bulb in the right secondary, it changes the left secondary resonance once again to 4.8KHz, while the resonance of the right secondary
which contains the bulb now shoots up to 11KHz judging at the peak light in the bulb.

In this last situation we have different resonance frequencies between the both secondary coils.
When i now also add some capacitance to L3, the circus is changing once again

I feel like the guy in the drawing

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vat5Z9gfuwM&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu



11 kHz, now you have working replication :-) I was unable to see what was going on in the isolated LC in my setup, I could only see output light which maximized somewhere between 10 and 11 kHz.


Lets simplify the circuit so there can be only one resonant frequency. Connect those secondaries in parallel (as Mags already noticed) using just one capacitor (this was my first setup). You have CW-CCW coils so start of CW must be connected to end of CCW. C is reduced so resonance frequency will increase a bit. This is good in terms of L3, higher frequency means more blocking there.


The one time I used capacitor in L3 I tuned it like this:
1. I used L2s in parallel with just one 1000 nf capacitor in series with the load so no isolated LC here.
2. Connected load in the output and looked for the frequency that gave highest amount of light without a capacitor in L3.
3. Disconnected load so L2 side was open and placed a cap so that L3 resonated at the same frequency as the secondaries. I think cap was 73 nf (three 220 nf in series) and I got close enough.


When I tested this, I connected the L3 cap while the system was running and it gave bit more output light (10 watt and 8 watt halogens in the output). Enough to notice it. Did not notice anything in the input side as the 5 watt halogen there was not lit at all. Sweet spot did not change if I dropped the 10 watt halogen off which is good.


Secondaries should not affect primary so this tuning method worked. But there is also some capacitance between L3 and L2 that goes right under it, and also local inductance field is present from the secondaries so there can be some influence. This should be small enough to be ignored though.


With 11 kHz and higher tuning capacitor can possibly be dropped from L3 as it can block better, but I am not sure about this when using signal generator as source.


 

OneLink