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Author Topic: Lenzless resonant transformer  (Read 142411 times)

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2014, 10:30:52 AM »
So, Verpies, let me get this straight, the scope shot says "OU"?
Yes, if it was a scopeshot of input power to some device under test, that had no other power supply.
Unfortunately, it is not a scopeshot of input power :(

I posted this scopeshot so other users would learn to look at the areas of the power waveform above and below the X-axis, and not at the amplitude of this waveform.

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2014, 10:30:52 AM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2014, 03:18:35 PM »
Yes, this will work. too and it will avoid capacitive coupling.

Alternatively, such leakage detecting coil can be placed inside the toroid's hole (please make a pic of that configuration, too, for completeness and for the future).

Hey Verpies

Well, in the toroids hole, that is where all the action is. ;)   It might seem like leakage, but that is where the fields propagate from a primary to a secondary.  ;)

Mags

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2014, 08:59:51 PM »


By 'isolated' I mean electrically isolated. There was no picture of this in the pdf, I realised later that results were little better with separate LC-circuit.


Looking at your latest vid, remove signal gen and bulb from one secondary so result is electrically isolated LC tank. Second secondary with bulb remains the same.


If possible, current and voltage readings would also be interesting to see in the isolated LC. That reactive power should be reflected to the other secondary. But does output bulb now reduce reactive power circulating in the isolated LC ?


Ok,  back to the thread from Jack, i have removed the input bulb, and connected the FG to the L3 making it the primary coil as requested above.

We see no resonance peak in the Primary (L3) other then the V and I phases get lined up at the 65KHz mark which had a 185V peak yesterday.
We see a minor resonance peak of the left bulbless secondary around 85KHz and an even more smaller resonance peak at that same frequency for the
right secondary with bulb.

Severall voltage and current measurements where taken.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkdTL7vk_nU&feature=youtu.be

When removing capacitance on the L3 primary coil (till 3.5nF) causing it to resonate around 85KHz (secondary resonance frequency) starts the circus
again of peaking and dipping at resonance as we have seen before on the other coils when trying to match the resonance frequencies (not on video).


All very well explainable behaviour IMHO.


Regards Itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2014, 08:59:51 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2014, 06:56:44 AM »
Itsu:

Thanks for some more great clips.  I think one of the big teaching things in those clips is to sweep the excitation frequency and then observe the amplitudes and phase relationships of the resultant waveforms.  Also, this should always be done with a sine wave and never be done with a square wave.

All:

I think another thing worth considering before making measurements is the architecture of the magnetic setup.  The merits or lack of merits should be discussed.  There is always the hope for the "secret sauce" and nobody can stop you from pursuing your tests with whatever configuration you want.  But at the same time, basic magnetic fundamentals should always be part of the discussion.

The setup has L1 typically as the input coil wrapped around the left half of the toroid.  Then you have L2 typically as the output coil wrapped around the right half of the toroid.  Then you have L3 wrapped around the entire toroid.

If L1 is connected to the function generator and L2 is connected to a load, then the toroid is acting like a regular transformer core and AC power flows from the function generator to the load.  In this case L3 sees "clockwise" flux through the bottom part of the toroid and "counter-clockwise" flux through the top part of the toroid.  The net flux that L3 sees is zero.  In the real world we know that there will not be perfect flux cancellation and as a result a very tiny net flux will be picked up by L3.

So in essence L3 is a "nonsense" coil that is illogically placed and does not really contribute to the operation of the magnetic circuit.  Similarly, when you connect the signal generator to L3 then the toroid sort of acts like a cylindrical core for L3.  In this case L1 and L2 will barely pick up a signal either, they are stuck in magnetic limbo.  It's only when you hit a resonance frequency can the feeble signals going into L1 and L2 start to show any amplitude.  But of course it is a "phantom resonance amplitude" because there is no usable AC power to speak of.

I am assuming that most or all of you were aware of this.  You see nonsensical magnetic configurations all the time on the forums.  Some people may not be aware of this.  To help them they should be pointed to some good instructional YouTube clips or a good web site, etc.

MileHigh

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2014, 11:50:25 AM »
Well, in the toroids hole, that is where all the action is. ;)   It might seem like leakage, but that is where the fields propagate from a primary to a secondary.  ;)
I am familiar with Distinti's works.
If his theory is correct then the voltage induced in the center solenoid will be independent from the load/current flowing in the secondary.

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2014, 11:50:25 AM »
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Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2014, 01:09:03 PM »

Ok,  back to the thread from Jack, i have removed the input bulb, and connected the FG to the L3 making it the primary coil as requested above.

We see no resonance peak in the Primary (L3) other then the V and I phases get lined up at the 65KHz mark which had a 185V peak yesterday.
We see a minor resonance peak of the left bulbless secondary around 85KHz and an even more smaller resonance peak at that same frequency for the
right secondary with bulb.

Severall voltage and current measurements where taken.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkdTL7vk_nU&feature=youtu.be

When removing capacitance on the L3 primary coil (till 3.5nF) causing it to resonate around 85KHz (secondary resonance frequency) starts the circus
again of peaking and dipping at resonance as we have seen before on the other coils when trying to match the resonance frequencies (not on video).


All very well explainable behaviour IMHO.


Regards Itsu



How L3 was wound ? It seems as it were wound over empty spot between secondaries. I placed it in the middle of both coils, also at the start of both coils worked. Both seem to give same results. But it should not be placed over both coils in the same half of the toroid, or in the empty spot.


You have M-088 as I do, that's good. You can do exactly same test I did. I think you could start at much lower number of turns and thicker wire as you can go above audio frequencies. Wire does not need to be enamelled. If you put the L3 in the middle of secondaries, then setup matches mine. 30 volt input should be better than 20 volt input.


Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2014, 01:39:48 PM »
Thanks MileHigh,  once again, a good explaination, very usefull.




How L3 was wound ? It seems as it were wound over empty spot between secondaries. I placed it in the middle of both coils, also at the start of both coils worked. Both seem to give same results. But it should not be placed over both coils in the same half of the toroid, or in the empty spot.


You have M-088 as I do, that's good. You can do exactly same test I did. I think you could start at much lower number of turns and thicker wire as you can go above audio frequencies. Wire does not need to be enamelled. If you put the L3 in the middle of secondaries, then setup matches mine. 30 volt input should be better than 20 volt input.

Jack, ok,  yes i have the present L3 inbetween the empty spot between secondaries.

Having the nanoperm cores i tried to setup like you mentioned here which states:

Quote
I used 1000 nf caps, about 80 turns of 0.31 mm wire and permeability of M88 is 80000.

Will the red L3 as shown in the picture below represent what you mean?
If so, how many turns?  Also 80 like the others?

According to this website: http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm  the both coils on the nanoperm core should resonate at 184Hz with the given data.
When measuring mines the current in the both coils flatlines (and change phase position) around 140Hz, no real peak though.

 
Regards itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2014, 01:39:48 PM »
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Offline Jack Noskills

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2014, 03:15:53 PM »
Thanks MileHigh,  once again, a good explaination, very usefull.


Jack, ok,  yes i have the present L3 inbetween the empty spot between secondaries.

Having the nanoperm cores i tried to setup like you mentioned here which states:

Will the red L3 as shown in the picture below represent what you mean?
If so, how many turns?  Also 80 like the others?

According to this website: http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm  the both coils on the nanoperm core should resonate at 184Hz with the given data.
When measuring mines the current in the both coils flatlines (and change phase position) around 140Hz, no real peak though.

 
Regards itsu


I used 90 turns, but I think 1:1 ratio is ok so use 80. Here is a picture of mine, where I used caduceous type winding as a secondary. It gave little bit different results, no need for you to change to caduceous windings though.


Secondary resonance should be around 10-11 kHz in your system.

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2014, 03:56:08 PM »
Here is a picture of mine, where I used caduceous type winding as a secondary.
Oh, so the 3rd winding is placed as depicted in this diagram of "flux leakage detector".  That makes a big difference.

If you want to minimize capacitive coupling put some spacers between the green winding and red windings (cardboard and several layers of plastic tape is fine).

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2014, 03:56:08 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2014, 06:46:50 PM »

Ok, just to be complete and to finish the normal ferrite setup, i have removed the L3 coil and set it up as done by Jack and as shown by verpies (90° off from where it was).
Inductance still measures around 1mH.

Then i sweeped this L3 from 800Hz til 100MHz monitoring the input (FG) voltage and current and the voltage from both secondaries.

No real resonance points are seen anymore.
I see a input voltage/current sync (in phase) around 5.6MHz!! at which point also the current swaps from leading to trailing the voltage.
Guess this is the series resonance point of L3 (minimum impedance/ minimum voltage).

After that i see a slight resonance point (2v pp) on mainly the left secondary (without the bulb) around 37MHz!!

Guess that MileHigh is "dead on" with his statement here where it says:


Quote
In this case L3 sees "clockwise" flux through the bottom part of the toroid and "counter-clockwise" flux through the top part of the toroid. 
The net flux that L3 sees is zero. 
In the real world we know that there will not be perfect flux cancellation and as a result a very tiny net flux will be picked up by L3.

So in essence L3 is a "nonsense" coil that is illogically placed and does not really contribute to the operation of the magnetic circuit. 
Similarly, when you connect the signal generator to L3 then the toroid sort of acts like a cylindrical core for L3. 
In this case L1 and L2 will barely pick up a signal either, they are stuck in magnetic limbo. 
It's only when you hit a resonance frequency can the feeble signals going into L1 and L2 start to show any amplitude. 
But of course it is a "phantom resonance amplitude" because there is no usable AC power to speak of.
 
 
Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usjsc7SZCx4&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2014, 07:39:34 PM »
In this case L3 sees "clockwise" flux through the bottom part of the toroid and "counter-clockwise" flux through the top part of the toroid.  The net flux that L3 sees is zero.
Yes, unless the flux leaves the core.
e.g. this leakage flux will induce voltage in L3 when the L2 counter-current becomes high (as when L2 is shorted).

So in essence L3 is a "nonsense" coil that is illogically placed and does not really contribute to the operation of the magnetic circuit. 
Similarly, when you connect the signal generator to L3 then the toroid sort of acts like a cylindrical core for L3. 
In this case L1 and L2 will barely pick up a signal either, they are stuck in magnetic limbo. 
L3 might not contribute but it does affect the energy transfer between L1 and L2.
If you'd apply a saturating DC to L3 (through a choke in series) then you'd see how the transformer action is affected between L1 and L2 over one polarity of the input AC cycle (the polarity which exacerbates core saturation).


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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2014, 07:39:34 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2014, 08:57:59 PM »
L3 might not contribute but it does affect the energy transfer between L1 and L2.
If you'd apply a saturating DC to L3 (through a choke in series) then you'd see how the transformer action is affected between L1 and L2 over one polarity of the input AC cycle (the polarity which exacerbates core saturation).

But as we have no transformer action going between L1 and L2 (the 2 200 turn coils), this can not been checked.
Or do you mean when also injecting a signal in L1?

Regards Itsu
 

Offline verpies

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2014, 09:32:38 PM »
In the last experiment you drove the L3, so indeed direct transformer action between L1 and L2 is not applicable.
However, if L3 is driven hard enough so the current through L3 is sufficiently high to cause saturation of the core, then its differential permeability will be modulated and any LC tanks formed by L1 or L2 will be excited parametrically by the varying inductances of L1 and L2.

Nontheless, if the L1 is driven with AC then a transformer action will exist and when a saturating DC is applied to L3 (through a choke in series) then it will affect the AC power transfer from L1 to L2 through the modulation of differential permeability and the magnetic coupling coefficient.

Offline itsu

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #118 on: March 02, 2014, 10:27:28 PM »
In the last experiment you drove the L3, so indeed direct transformer action between L1 and L2 is not applicable.
However, if L3 is driven hard enough so the current through L3 is sufficiently high to cause saturation of the core, then its differential permeability will be modulated and any LC tanks formed by L1 or L2 will be excited parametrically by the varying inductances of L1 and L2.


Ok,  i put in more power into this L3 coil using my MOSFET power amp., and it now shows the resonances of the secondary coils again around 85KHz.

Not sure if it has saturated the core, but allthough the PA and transformer used are not designed for 85KHz, it made the resonance of the secondary coils reappear again.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41eEfFJMd0Y&feature=youtu.be


Regards itsu

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Lenzless resonant transformer
« Reply #119 on: March 02, 2014, 10:46:32 PM »
Am I missing something. Jacks last pic posted, seems to have bifi windings for 1 and 2, but I only see single wire on Itsu coil posted just before that.  ???

Mags

 

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