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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Channeler on January 02, 2014, 05:43:34 PM

Title: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Channeler on January 02, 2014, 05:43:34 PM
I'm interested in building a Bedini SG. Is there a page on Bedini's notes because there seems to be so many little things that can make a difference. I think there's a new book on the Bedini SG and a dvd series but I don't have spare money. Maybe Bedini wouldn't mind if some people wrote notes here? Here's what I know. Please correct any errors if Bedini didn't say it.

The Bedini SG is about low power.

I heard that the north side of the magnets should face outward.

The weaker ceramic magnets work best. I heard Bedini say he doesn't use neodymium magnets for the SG.

Don't swap the rechargeable (radiant) battery with the source battery. See the following paragraph.

The charging battery becomes the radiant battery and requires at least 5 complete recharges to become conditioned, a good reservoir for the radiant energy.

The environment around the Bedini SG requires time to build up or whatever the proper wording is. Perhaps related to the charging battery conditioning.

Bedini seems to always use npn transistors? Not mosfets. Is there a reason for this?

If you use a capacitor to collect the radiant energy then i believe it should be a large polarized cap, but i feel reachable batteries are much better to collect and hold the radiant energy. I recall Bedini saying that the larger recharging batteries are better.

I've heard somewhere the coil spike should be as fast as possible.

Use good ball bearings haha. :)
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Paul-R on January 02, 2014, 05:53:27 PM
I think you will find this site which is run by JB to be very useful:

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/

Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Channeler on January 02, 2014, 06:00:12 PM
I think you will find this site very useful:

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/ (http://www.energyscienceforum.com/bedini-monopole-3-beginners/)

Good. but does that page load for you? I get page not found.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Channeler on January 02, 2014, 06:08:56 PM
Maybe this is it?
http://www.energyscienceforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Paul-R on January 02, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
Maybe this is it?
http://www.energyscienceforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16 (http://www.energyscienceforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
Absolutely.

The site has become a navigation nightmare and I could not find that series of threads.

Well done.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Raccoon on March 29, 2014, 02:43:23 AM
I know this maybe outdated be I want to answer this question, as it could help someone :
Quote
Channeler say : Bedini seems to always use npn transistors? Not mosfets. Is there a reason for this?

I've recently made one (which is not very efficient), with a modified floppy BLDC motor & or a fan motor.
I've tested the Mosfet N-Channel, drived by the trigger coil, but as expected this don't work.
The trigger coil cannot get enough voltage when collapsing to drive the MOS transistor.
With an NPN "bipolar" transistor, this work because they are sensitive to little current. (I use a small common 2N5551)
Sometimes, NPN are so sensitive than it's possible to randomly drive them when the base is floating or if touched with your finger.

Also I've tested an npn which drive a Mosfet, this work but with just so much wast of energy.
Maybe this depend on parameters, but I think Mosfet aren't very efficient with low profiles bedini.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: MarkE on March 29, 2014, 08:11:34 AM
I know this maybe outdated be I want to answer this question, as it could help someone :
I've recently made one (which is not very efficient), with a modified floppy BLDC motor & or a fan motor.
I've tested the Mosfet N-Channel, drived by the trigger coil, but as expected this don't work.
The trigger coil cannot get enough voltage when collapsing to drive the MOS transistor.
With an NPN "bipolar" transistor, this work because they are sensitive to little current. (I use a small common 2N5551)
Sometimes, NPN are so sensitive than it's possible to randomly drive them when the base is floating or if touched with your finger.

Also I've tested an npn which drive a Mosfet, this work but with just so much wast of energy.
Maybe this depend on parameters, but I think Mosfet aren't very efficient with low profiles bedini.
The problem is choosing the right MOSFET.  BJTs will turn on at a low voltage, and if the collector current is small a low total charge.  If you pick a standard threshold voltage MOSFET, then you need to get to about 4V.  In addition, depending on the MOSFET you could need to move multiple to many nanoCoulombs of gate charge to turn the device on and off.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on March 29, 2014, 10:02:09 AM
Ditch the silly Bedini driver circuit and use one that is much more flexible, yet still yields the same output effects.

MHOP trumps Bedini. You don't even need a rotor at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGja8eggDmM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU

Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Raccoon on March 30, 2014, 01:07:42 AM
Ho thanks didn't know all that, really informative for me.
I've tested with a N-MOS K3570, the datasheet tell me (if I'm not wrong) the min cut-off voltage VGS equal 1.5V.
My bedini trigger coil is so little (one of the 3 coils), than I doubt getting more than 1 volt.

MHOP trumps Bedini ? I will check the video !
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2014, 03:10:32 AM
Ho thanks didn't know all that, really informative for me.
I've tested with a N-MOS K3570, the datasheet tell me (if I'm not wrong) the min cut-off voltage VGS equal 1.5V.
My bedini trigger coil is so little (one of the 3 coils), than I doubt getting more than 1 volt.

MHOP trumps Bedini ? I will check the video !

Basically you just need to be able to trigger your coil-driving transistor with the smaller voltage that you are getting from your sense coil. The MHOP op-amp first stage allows you to set this trigger voltage to be a very small value; the system is very sensitive. Then you use the op-amp output to trigger your driving transistor, which can now be a power mosfet of any kind able to handle the voltages that your coils will produce. I'm using an IRFP450 in there at the moment.  It's actually a very simple circuit, and the TL082 FET-input dual opamp costs well under one dollar per chip. The output side of the circuit, diverting or using the main coil's inductive collapse spike,  can be any Bedini-type charger/desulphator scheme you like.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2014, 03:22:58 PM
Ho thanks didn't know all that, really informative for me.
I've tested with a N-MOS K3570, the datasheet tell me (if I'm not wrong) the min cut-off voltage VGS equal 1.5V.
My bedini trigger coil is so little (one of the 3 coils), than I doubt getting more than 1 volt.

MHOP trumps Bedini ? I will check the video !
I've taken a look at the 2sk3570 data sheet. Yes, the min cutoff gate voltage is 1.5 V... that doesn't mean you'll be able to get it to turn on cleanly at that low drive voltage! Really you need 4.5 volts and a good inrush of current to switch it cleanly, and clean switching is important for producing the inductive spike effects from the Bedini-coils.  Plus, the transistor has a really low voltage rating of Vdss = 20 V ! It's designed for low voltage, high current applications and I doubt if it would survive a Bedini SG motor. The neon in the standard Bedini motor lights up at 90 volts! You can easily get 5 or 6 hundred volts in the spike.  That being said.... if they are cheap, try it and see! But really, you should use something more robust, I think.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Raccoon on March 30, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
Yep, I will try, I've few LM358N (low consumption).
I will show the trigger circuit for interested people. (maybe a little LTSpice simulation)

You're right I've tested this K3570 (desoldered it from scratch old motherboard, alim part) and it cannot get drived without less than 5V. I've try with an NPN drive, and it cannot start the motor "NEON don't fire, Led do".
So maybe I haven't killed it because inside diodes protections.
I should search if I have other, or buy it. My neon light are exactly thoses : http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120842243968&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

PS : how more than 500 video TinselKoala ! , Thanks this it instructive, I will let the time spend watching all of this !
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on March 30, 2014, 04:00:26 PM
Those are pretty neat little neons. They fire at a slightly lower voltage than the NE-2 that is common here in the USA; this is probably a good thing!

The Bedini circuit can turn the glass black, as you can see in my videos above. This happens when the neon gets more voltage and current than it is rated for. Sometimes the Bedini circuit can actually make bright purple flashes in the neon!

I have a lot of videos, it's true. I paid a lot for this silly camera and so I figure I should use it as much as possible.   ;D At the moment I've got the cost down to about a dollar per video..... LOL.

I've made a playlist of all the MHOP driver development videos so you don't have to search through a lot of irrelevant stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLml9VdOeqKa8F1PebS_EX7AX2aA_ZZtb9

The project was inspired by Mile High and we developed the circuit with a lot of back-and-forth here in the forum, and I learned a lot from the collaboration and from the other folks who occasionally chipped in with advice and comments. The full final schematics are in that last video in the series.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Raccoon on March 30, 2014, 04:47:30 PM
Many thanks, I will let you know the evolutions : I should probably start a new thread showing what I've done ?
(which is for the moment littles experiments based on what others have done)

Quote
The Bedini circuit can turn the glass black
This is interesting, some "brand new" that I buy was already black ? (And I suspecting was used before me)
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 03, 2014, 08:21:13 AM
I'll bring this conversation from the Cap-tret thread to here.

Anyone want to analyse the Bedini patents claims and text. Here is a link to three of them.
https://sites.google.com/site/johnbediniresearcharchive/john-bedini-u-s-patent

First one the Monopole Motor as the patent calls it, US 6545444.

A couple of odd sections of an "odd" patent. He uses Back emf to describe both the coil discharge and
the drag effect, then he says the circuit changes the Back emf to Forward emf. However the coil
discharge is Forward emf the entire time.

Before that he says that "if the energy in phase (the power out phase) is increased by additional available energy in the electromagnetics themselves".
The important word is "if" because if it doesn't then it won't do what he claims, and "if" doesn't mean "does".

A very slyly worded document in my opinion. It makes claims but only "if".

I am still yet to fully read the document, but immediately it reads quite odd.

..

All pulse motors that charge a battery with the diode output do the same thing, while the coil is discharging the current is in
the same direction as the charging current they are both "forward emf". Does the discharge current from the coil produce a magnetic force to drive the rotor ? Maybe. Does that make OU or extra energy ? No.

..
All kinds of weird talk in that patent. Anyone else read the part further on in the summary where he say's, "the Back emf created energy".
Seriously, he talking of creating energy, in a patent, I find that very curious.

..

I think maybe in his descriptions of the operation of the motor he begins by disregarding the first cycle and describing the result of
successive cycles which disregards the initial input and so "apparently there is theoretically almost double the energy for each
successive cycle" both phases, each cycle has two phases. A trick of the tongue.  ;)

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 03, 2014, 11:05:59 AM
Here's a video clip of a very hastily put together demonstration using a universal motor powered by a 12 volt battery
and a DC to DC converter (boost converter), the motor coils are switched by mosfets so that they discharge into a capacitor.
The video shows that when the motor is made to accelerate by applying more voltage/power then the coils discharge is less
and the capacitor voltage drops, however when the rotor is slowed by hand "a mechanical load" then the coils draw more power for each cycle because the frequency is lowering and the coils impedance is diminished as well allowing more current and correspondingly the capacitor voltage rises.

Please keep in mind this video was never mean't to be anything more than a demo to show another experimenter.

Coil recovery experiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAiYzYGOKIs

in that situation energy in the rotor is reduced and the capacitor voltage goes higher.
In the former situation the energy in the rotor is increased and the capacitor voltage is reduced.
All seems to be in order nothing out of the ordinary, it is as expected.

When energy is increased in the rotor it takes away from the amount of energy the coil has left to discharge.
When energy is decreased in the rotor it leaves more energy for the coil to discharge.

This is an important factor that is denied or ignored by many Bedini fans.

..

Please see previous page for the beginning of the patent discussion.  :)

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: tinman on July 03, 2014, 01:25:21 PM
It is interesting to note, that while the current flow direction remains the same in the inductor through the on/off cycle,the voltage is inverted when the inductor switches off..So could this be the thinking behind the back EMF to forward EMF switch?.

Another good build,is to use electron flow,insted of conventional current flow. For this you will need a pnp transistor,and im sure you can all work out how to wire the rest of the circuit up.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: tinman on July 03, 2014, 01:27:13 PM
Then you can merge both together :P
See if you can work out how to get an inductive kickback from both directions,using onlyone single run coil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nxvLsXos_g
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 03, 2014, 10:01:15 PM
It all depends on how you define the terms and definitions doesn't it.

Counter emf, Back emf, are they one and the same to you or is Back emf the coil discharge and counter emf the Lens drag,
or is Back emf the Lens drag and the coil discharge is just a coil discharge.

To me Back emf and counter emf are one and the same, the coil discharge is a coil discharge and is forward emf which faces it's
own counter emf produced in the wire when it discharges.

The coil discharge can be called "flyback" or whatever, but why mix it is with counter emf by calling it back emf ?

A coil can discharge from either or both ends yes.

I still say my idea of feeding the coil discharge back to a charging circuit which helped turn the rotor and increase the voltage for the main motor coil was a more complete way to utilize the coil discharge to turn the rotor. Being that the rotor seen two
separate driving phases the torque was increased significantly.

The main point of the video experiment was to show that when a motor is made to accelerate the rotor there is less energy left
to discharge from the coils.

And when the rotor is made to slow down by a mechanical load there is more energy left to discharge from the coils.

While adding energy to the rotor the coils consume more of the energy they take up and less is left to discharge, this is direct evidence that the mechanical work is not free as John claims.

While taking energy from the rotor with a mechanical load the coils have more energy to discharge. This backs up the assertion
that the turning of the rotor consumes energy and so the mechanical output from a Bedini machine is not free.

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 03, 2014, 10:09:39 PM
Tinman I can't get what your doing without a drawing.

Regardless the coil can only discharge the energy it takes in, it cannot discharge energy it does not take in.
All the energy taken in by the coil originates from the supply. No one has given any proof as to otherwise.

Why do so many people want to mix terms ?
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on July 03, 2014, 10:49:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU

If there's no rotor... It's not a motor. If there's no rotor... where else could the spike energy be coming from?  The rotor is actually a _drag_ and reduces the power available for the spikes. In the traditional Bedini motor the rotor is necessary because of the triggering system using the two co-wound coils and the moving magnets on the rotor. But the rotor wastes energy, it is actually a Red Herring, a shiny spinny thing useful mostly to distract the terrestrial primates away from watching their wallets carefully. If you want to recycle spike energy for some reason, like charging batteries, get rid of the wasteful rotor!


Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 03, 2014, 11:41:13 PM
Quite right Tinsel, but Bedini also uses the ability of the wheel to output mechanical work as a part of the advantage possible. But
then he maintains it's not a motor, a contradiction.

Anyway I agree if it's the "spike" energy we want then there is no need for the wheel and it can only be a loss. Then we have a
basic boost circuit.  ;)

And as well the high turn smallish gauge wire in the Bedini coils would mean that they cannot be very efficient by design, to be truly
efficient we need as least resistance as possible. Paralleling coils may reduce overall resistance but the individual resistance of
each wire remains the same.

I think the best setup would have thick wired very low resistance coils and use synchronous rectification or Shottky's and work at the correct
frequency and duty for the coils and input voltage ect. It would have low loss core material as well, maybe air. The switches would be
correctly rated mosfets or other more efficient switch and the switching would be done with as low a losses as possible.

I still think the patent is worded very strangely, it reads funny.

.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 03, 2014, 11:59:18 PM
Any coils switched in a way so that there is an output from the diode will produce the same basic effect.
Weather it be driven by a trigger coil or by an oscillator.

In the video below I switch the opposing coils on a toroid both ways so that they act as an inverter the (secondary is an output as well),
And I also switch them as a boost converter by causing the current through the opposing coils to be the same way or just one set
it's a boost converter, if the coils are fed with current of opposing direction then it's an inverter.  Below the setup is discharging
into a battery. and the on duty is adjusted so there is no ring down time with both coil sets firing.

This video is old, I know a lot more now than I did then. Scope is across the secondary I think. Long time ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhS2RHDq0R0

A switched coil is a switched coil.

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: MileHigh on July 04, 2014, 04:07:41 AM
Farmhand:

Quote
MileHigh, if a patent like Bedini's is lodged and as it is claimed, he says it is based on Tesla's radiant energy arrangements then
shouldn't Bedini's patent cite Tesla's Patent as "Prior Art" ?

Perhaps, but I am not the right person to answer that question.  It also suggests a conflict in citing something that is not actually in your own patent.  I think you caught him again.

I read the captures of the Bedini patent you posted and the prose is almost laughable.  It boils down to this:  One well-made 30-minute clip could explain the timing of the energizing and discharging of the main coil, and relate the magnetic field produced with the fly-by of the rotor magnet.  The good old L/R time constant and ... yikes!... Do the math for how a coil discharges into a battery, which in this case looks like a non-linear resistor.  My feeling is that exercise if well done would have the potential to "blow all of the Bedini threads out of the water."  But the potential would likely not be realized.

I know that I am repeating myself, but the heart of the analysis of the motor is to examine the timing of the circuit.  It all boils down to looking at and explaining the timing diagram for a given motor, and then extrapolating the timing analysis to a generic motor.  What happens when you make the coil inductance larger or smaller?  The answer is in the timing diagram.  Ask almost any question about this very simple pulse circuit and the answer lies in the timing diagram.  I am willing to bet you on the Bedini forums the analysis of the motor's timing diagram is almost never discussed.

Once you understand the timing diagram issues then go back and read those two excerpts from the Bedini patent and you won't know whether to laugh or cry.  There was that great phrase that I found recently that applies here, "Not even wrong."

MHOP rules!

MileHigh
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: MileHigh on July 04, 2014, 04:29:48 AM
I also feel there are lots of unanswered questions about the whole scene.  I don't actively read up on the Bedini scene but I know the whole narrative from a few years ago.

Okay, you start with a "dead" battery and you pulse charge it with current pulses that literally force current and energy into the battery.  Then you have a reconditioned battery, success!  The battery now accepts charge and behaves as a normal battery.

But what then?  That's the question that I have never seen raised, and I was exposed to a very wide swath of all things Bedini at one time.

Here is what I suspect:

The "reconditioned" battery will have a very limited number of discharge-charge cycles where it operates normally.  Then fairly quickly it will go "dead" again.

It becomes a cycle of diminishing returns:

Battery    # of recharge cycles

New                    250
1st treatment        30
2nd treatment       20
3rd treatment         8
4th treatment         3
5th treatment         0.5

The "reconditioning" is very limited in benefit in real-world usage.   The whacking of the battery with pulses of current "finds" some "new channels" for battery reagents that were "hiding."  However, they have a limited amount of serviceable usage in them.  The entropy of the battery chemicals is still increasing.  In plain English the chemicals in the battery are still decaying into useless mush.  Pulse charging a battery is just a temporary fix that "stirs up the mush" in the battery to find some remaining "good stuff."

I will repeat this is all my feeling.  In one form or another I think many of us have observed this type of behaviour in our cell phone batteries, or when you played with a battery-operated toy as a child.

One thing for sure, the whole business of "going up in levels" in the Bedini program is all based in reporting consecutive higher voltages in your destination charge batteries.  NO measurements of battery ENERGY, just stupid measurements of voltages.  That's retarded and people jump through those hoops.  They end up thinking that a Bedini motor is the real thing, without ever doing a strict and scientific regimen of battery ENERGY measurements.

MileHigh
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Paul-R on July 04, 2014, 03:23:46 PM

Farmhand:
MileHigh, if a patent like Bedini's is lodged and as it is claimed, he says it is based on Tesla's radiant energy arrangements then
shouldn't Bedini's patent cite Tesla's Patent as "Prior Art" ?

Farmhand:
It also suggests a conflict in citing something that is not actually in your own patent.  I think you caught him again.

i am pretty sure you can cite from another patent. He will be saying that he starts off from that point and develops it. It is the development that he can try to patent. But, as i said in the other thread, he has only seven years of patent protection left. He needs to get his a**e into gear pretty soon.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 12:18:42 AM
I think the main point of argument here should be -- When the Bedini SG switches a coil and discharges it to a battery is the effect  any
different to the effect obtained when the same coil is switched by a mosfet that is driven by an oscillator and the coil discharged into a battery.

I say no it is exactly the same effect.

A guy designed a pulse generator ( and posted it at EF) that was designed to connect to the base of the Bedini SG,
the idea was to get the SG running as it should (1 pulse per pass) then stop the wheel and connect the pulse generator to the SG
after first setting the pulse generator frequency to match the SG frequency then when the pulse generator is turned on the
SG operates just the same as when the wheel turns except the output is more. I built the pulse generator circuit and used it and
the waveform was slightly different (no hump) but charging was better and input was less.

I think only myself and another fella built it, and he tried to use his while the wheel was turning.  :D Got a good laugh out of that.

Shows the desire to be discerning is lacking.

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 05, 2014, 12:36:16 AM
As I have stated in another topic, ALL of my 5 Bedini type motors only gave a "surface charge"  or "empty voltage" to the charging battery.  I started out with new bats and after a little while (no matter what the meters were showing me) the run bat could no longer run the motor.  This happened with 9 volt bats and 12 volt bats...it was all the same with all of my replications.  Everything always looked good, higher voltage going into the charging battery than from the run battery but, in the end, when you swapped them out more than a few times, the motor would no longer run at all.

After my experiments with the 2 new motorcycle bats (12 volt) which cost me like $50 each, I decided to use them for other experiments but learned that they would no longer charge up using my car battery charger and, when I returned them to where I had purchased them, they tested them and said they were both "shot".

This again is my own experience and you can watch my videos at youtube by looking at Piratelabs.

Bill
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 12:36:48 AM
Here you go MileHigh, I found this animation. What do you think of this one ? It's been up on you tube for years.

Understanding the Bedini Circuit by introvertebrate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi7cmUpMdX8

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 05, 2014, 12:39:44 AM
Here you go MileHigh, I found this animation. What do you think of this one ? It's been up on you tube for years.

Understanding the Bedini Circuit by introvertebrate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi7cmUpMdX8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi7cmUpMdX8)

..

I used this guys videos and schematics to build my first SSG.  He gave very detailed information and, I noticed that he went on to build more advanced motors but then....quit doing so.  Possibly he learned what I had learned?

Bill
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 02:27:50 AM
Pirate, I also had one battery act funny when I used a SG on it, the problem then arises that we need to avoid doing the same
thing in other ways.
I like to use batteries for experiments as well, I find when I have a battery that is sulfated if I use a pulse discharge circuit to just
get some charge on the battery, then discharge it with a decent load for a bit then immediately put it on a regular solar charge
controller they usually take current and charge up, then if I leave them for a few days and discharge again then back to the solar
charge again they come back on line. I have a large motorcycle battery and mine is sus it gases off continuously there is hardly any
room in there for electrolyte, gotta keep a good eye on that.  I like it for experiments though because it's a wet cell that is smallish.
It's the one I can grab and use. I'll look up those vids, always like a good experiment video.

..

I think to get really good battery charging we need to treat each battery individually, and if we are working with a "bank" we might
want to try to get all the batteries to a similar state.

Each battery will likely have a specific applied charging voltage at which the transfer of power will be best, depending on it's
state and size ect. If we have a source like solar panels then it's good to get the applied voltage to stay at the maximum power
voltage of the panels which with solar panels is known and is about 17 to 18 volts usually with a panel for charging a 12 volt battery.
However that might not be the best voltage for the transfer of power, depending on the battery and it's condition ect. .

Would be interesting to get a calculated range of best power transfer voltages for a "typical" 12 volt battery. Maybe one of the Engineers could help us to work it out.

Some say double the battery voltage or almost, but my ears tell me it's a bit less, about 20 volts for the batteries I tried, going by
when the pinging in the wires dulls. I took that as meaning the energy was taken in and not reflected so much, I could hear it.  :)

..

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: synchro1 on July 05, 2014, 03:10:59 AM
As I have stated in another topic, ALL of my 5 Bedini type motors only gave a "surface charge"  or "empty voltage" to the charging battery.  I started out with new bats and after a little while (no matter what the meters were showing me) the run bat could no longer run the motor.  This happened with 9 volt bats and 12 volt bats...it was all the same with all of my replications.  Everything always looked good, higher voltage going into the charging battery than from the run battery but, in the end, when you swapped them out more than a few times, the motor would no longer run at all.

After my experiments with the 2 new motorcycle bats (12 volt) which cost me like $50 each, I decided to use them for other experiments but learned that they would no longer charge up using my car battery charger and, when I returned them to where I had purchased them, they tested them and said they were both "shot".

This again is my own experience and you can watch my videos at youtube by looking at Piratelabs.

Bill


I have a pile of dead batteries too from the SG. I brought the subject up at the motor shop, and the owner went ballistic about suing Bedini for all the customer batteries his plug in charger killed! I can light a 120 volt AC LED bulb off the Bedini SG charger electrodes. I think it's some kind of low ripple AC that's deadly to the lead acid battery!   
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 11:07:26 AM
The patent Bedini 6392370 is a more interesting device because it has a permanent magnet involved and if it was able to
successfully harness the energy from the magnet then it might have some possibility of showing some interesting results.
However all of my experiments with permanent magnets and "flux switching" have come up to nix so far. I've tried a few
solid state (static) ways but there are a couple of more ways I would like to try with a moving rotor involved.

Link to patents - https://sites.google.com/site/johnbediniresearcharchive/john-bedini-u-s-patent

Anyway if we then look to the patent 6677730 we can see the device is a "two stage (phase) capacitor pulser",
In the first stage it charges the capacitor bank by connecting the supply to the caps, then in the second stage
it disconnects the capacitor bank from the supply and connects it to the batteries to discharge the capacitor bank to the
batteries and charge them.

Basically I think this is or was the Bedini "Tesla Solar Charger" circuit  :D And possibly the regular wall chargers circuit as
well.

I built the circuit and first thing I noticed is that the circuit "open circuits the supply" for the time period of the second stage (phase),
which is more than likely close to 50% of the duty. (it can be adjusted as by the patent), that is fine if the supply is the grid or other
such supply that is not time dependent like the Sun.

If the circuit is used with solar panels then it effectively halves the time the panels can output power as the supply duty is
restricted to the length of one out of two phases. Any time the sun is shining and the panels are not outputting power that
power is wasted or left unharnessed would be a better term.

Not the best for a solar setup.

How the big amps are shown is simply the dumping of the capacitors charged to 20 volts or more into the battery/bank.

I think at the demo they showed like an intermittent (x) amps into the setup with a much larger amps pulsating out, and allowed
people to think it was OU. To get a big cap bank charged to over 20 volts quickly from solar panels you would need to use two panels in series, otherwise the panels struggle to charge the caps to the full voltage of the panels, the last few volts would be
slow to get on the cap bank from 12v panels (not series array) as compared to the rate of charging from 14 to 18 volts from the
same panels. A series set of panels will charge the cap bank from 14v to 24 v in quick time though and I think that is what he did.
It would more or less waste one panels output if done like that with 50% duty for each phase (stage).



..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: MarkE on July 05, 2014, 11:10:56 AM
Pirate, I also had one battery act funny when I used a SG on it, the problem then arises that we need to avoid doing the same
thing in other ways.
I like to use batteries for experiments as well, I find when I have a battery that is sulfated if I use a pulse discharge circuit to just
get some charge on the battery, then discharge it with a decent load for a bit then immediately put it on a regular solar charge
controller they usually take current and charge up, then if I leave them for a few days and discharge again then back to the solar
charge again they come back on line. I have a large motorcycle battery and mine is sus it gases off continuously there is hardly any
room in there for electrolyte, gotta keep a good eye on that.  I like it for experiments though because it's a wet cell that is smallish.
It's the one I can grab and use. I'll look up those vids, always like a good experiment video.

..

I think to get really good battery charging we need to treat each battery individually, and if we are working with a "bank" we might
want to try to get all the batteries to a similar state.

Each battery will likely have a specific applied charging voltage at which the transfer of power will be best, depending on it's
state and size ect. If we have a source like solar panels then it's good to get the applied voltage to stay at the maximum power
voltage of the panels which with solar panels is known and is about 17 to 18 volts usually with a panel for charging a 12 volt battery.
However that might not be the best voltage for the transfer of power, depending on the battery and it's condition ect. .

Would be interesting to get a calculated range of best power transfer voltages for a "typical" 12 volt battery. Maybe one of the Engineers could help us to work it out.

Some say double the battery voltage or almost, but my ears tell me it's a bit less, about 20 volts for the batteries I tried, going by
when the pinging in the wires dulls. I took that as meaning the energy was taken in and not reflected so much, I could hear it.  :)

..

..
There are good and relatively inexpensive desulfating Pb acid battery chargers out there.  A modest amount of pulsing to desulfate Pb acid batteries is a good thing.  Hammering on Pb acid batteries with voltage pulses way above 2.1V / cell is a good way to quickly destroy Pb acid batteries.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 12:38:55 PM
Yes when I desulfate my own batteries I use only 1000 uF capacitor kHz frequencies and low power only until the battery has some
charge on it or intermittently.
I have a good rejuvenating charger I bought for $110.00 it works pretty good.

I usually just let the regular solar charge controller charge the batteries for a day or two and it pulses them (in a way) when it floats
the batteries, if it's busy then I can't use that.

I'm not a fan of the very low frequency high current pulsing method. It's kinda scary.

..
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 01:14:55 PM
I just remembered I have a video from March 2011, back then there was quite a bit of fuss over the "Tesla" Solar Chargers from
Johns mob.
As it was rumored that the Johns patent above was the circuit, I decided to build it and see what happened. Even a crude beginner
like me at the time could see that the solar panels if used would be idle for 50% of the time.  :) So it was of no use to me for that.  ;)

Two stage pulse charger clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: MarkE on July 05, 2014, 01:35:43 PM
I just remembered I have a video from March 2011, back then there was quite a bit of fuss over the "Tesla" Solar Chargers from
Johns mob.
As it was rumored that the Johns patent above was the circuit, I decided to build it and see what happened. Even a crude beginner
like me at the time could see that the solar panels if used would be idle for 50% of the time.  :) So it was of no use to me for that.  ;)

Two stage pulse charger clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY
One of your meters is the same model as a donated meter that TinselKoala uses.   I haven't looked at the schematics, but from what the meters were doing and your description, it looks designed to beat up on the batteries that it charges.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2014, 09:30:20 PM
I've noticed that the Excel XL830L DMM is a lot more sensitive to RF noise than the Harbor Freight Cen-Tech meters. (Most probably not a factor in Farmhand's setup.) Of course I only have a sample of one of the XLs, compared to about half a dozen of the Cen-Techs. But it's pretty easy to make the XL830 give bad indications if there is a lot of HF noise around, even when the meter isn't connected to the HF source. The Cen-Tech meters have a metal foil shield of sorts built into the case; I don't think the XL830 does. Other than that, I like the XL meter OK. It has a cool backlight function and a slightly better transistor socket for the Hfe test than the other meters. The thing I don't like about it is that the rotary switch is also the on-off switch, so the rotary switch gets a lot more use and stress than it needs to. The Cen-Tech meters have a separate on-off switch, but no backlight. And of course the XL meter has the neat little Fluke-type yellow sleeve thing, the Cen-Techs are just basic plastic boxes without sleeves.

But the really really neat thing about the XL meter (besides the fact that it was donated!) is that it came with an extra 9V battery!
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: TinselKoala on July 05, 2014, 09:44:08 PM
I just remembered I have a video from March 2011, back then there was quite a bit of fuss over the "Tesla" Solar Chargers from
Johns mob.
As it was rumored that the Johns patent above was the circuit, I decided to build it and see what happened. Even a crude beginner
like me at the time could see that the solar panels if used would be idle for 50% of the time.  :) So it was of no use to me for that.  ;)

Two stage pulse charger clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY)
Watching that video made a design sketch flash into my brain. Instead of using Time to regulate the pulse charging ... use Voltage! Use an op-amp comparator to monitor the voltage on the Capacitor as it charges up, and flip to the dump mode when the cap reaches the setpoint voltage!
This would be ideal for compensating for varying solar illumination because with variable input to the PV it will take more or less time to get the cap to its optimum voltage for discharging into the battery. If you use regular time intervals, the cap will sometimes have more charge (voltage), sometimes less, depending on the input light at the PV panel.
So using the op-amp comparator will allow you to set the voltage at which the cap dumps into the battery and also automagically compensates for varying input power as from a solar panel, charging the cap to the same voltage but taking longer or shorter time intervals to do it. Also you can just put in different cap banks and the system will automagically compensate, because it takes longer to charge a bigger cap to the same voltage, etc.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 05, 2014, 11:32:00 PM
Yep, I used voltage level to trigger my picaxe solar pulser to dump it's cap and to stop charging when the battery voltage went too
high and the input voltage triggered weather or not to use the boost converter to pump up the cap or to just let the panel voltage
do it.
I've posted the schematic and the program code at different times and I should put them both here, I'll try to locate them, the schematic is on the other computer not repaired yet but it might be uploaded to a photo share site. I'll see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 06, 2014, 12:03:23 AM
Here is my circuit and code, the program code has some extra code in the humm section where I was trying out the sleep mode,
not important, the working code is in the boost and charge blocks.

I called it the "Machine of Light" to poke fun at the crew that were working with Bedini at the time that had a circuit they called
the "Machine of Time.  :D They wouldn't share code, only drawings. Eventually they got stiffed anyway by the Bedini "Machine"/crew.

The circuit ground is not indicated on the solar input negative.

The circuit drawing is hard to see when the image is reduced in size so I zipped it and the image is in the zip file.

..
It's not the best design, I can't even say it's a good design, but it worked for me as a project, it's now dismantled, I never
really needed it I just wanted to do it.   ;)

Who needs Bedini anyway, we're supposed be working open source, not idolizing scam artists - profiteers. That was my point,
if we work together we could achieve a lot, I do my projects alone mostly, I just ask for help when I need it or want it, which I
think is how it should be. It's too difficult to agree with a group all the time.

.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2014, 01:23:05 AM

if we work together we could achieve a lot, I do my projects alone mostly, I just ask for help when I need it or want it, which I
think is how it should be. It's too difficult to agree with a group all the time.

.

I agree 100%.

Bill
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: SeaMonkey on July 06, 2014, 04:26:16 AM
As I have stated in another topic, ALL of my 5 Bedini type motors only gave a "surface charge"  or "empty voltage" to the charging battery.  I started out with new bats and after a little while (no matter what the meters were showing me) the run bat could no longer run the motor.  This happened with 9 volt bats and 12 volt bats...it was all the same with all of my replications.  Everything always looked good, higher voltage going into the charging battery than from the run battery but, in the end, when you swapped them out more than a few times, the motor would no longer run at all.

After my experiments with the 2 new motorcycle bats (12 volt) which cost me like $50 each, I decided to use them for other experiments but learned that they would no longer charge up using my car battery charger and, when I returned them to where I had purchased them, they tested them and said they were both "shot".

This again is my own experience and you can watch my videos at youtube by looking at Piratelabs.

Bill

You raise good points Pirate.  MileHigh and FarmHand have also
made very sound contributions to understanding the fallacies of
Bedini technology.

To properly maintain a lead-acid battery by means of pulse charging
the pulses applied to the battery must be very substantial; up to
twice the normal battery voltage and a minimum of 10 Amperes for
the duration of each very brief pulse.

If the pulses from the Bedini device are too weak to fully charge the
battery being charged/rejuvenated it will not be fully charged and
sulfation will begin to set in.  Once the sulfation becomes hardened
after several months of chronic undercharging it will exhibit the
"surface charge" phenomenon.

A battery which has lost capacity due to hardened sulfation will partially
respond to weak pulsing and will show what appears to be a normal charged
voltage.  When discharged into a load though, this charge is rapidly dissipated
and the battery becomes dead.  Weak pulses from Bedini inductive discharge
devices (very high voltage but very little current) are simply not strong enough
to reverse the build-up of hardened sulfation so the battery will progressively
get worse and worse as the degree of sulfation increases.  Finally, when heavily
sulfated, the battery will not respond at all to normal charging voltages.

To restore/rejuvenate a battery that has lost nearly all of its capacity to hardened
sulfation, high powered capacitive discharge pulses are required.  Providing the battery
in question hasn't been internally damaged by the sulfation stresses it should
respond to desulfation pulsing over a period of several weeks and most of its
capacity should be made available again.

Unfortunately, the small sealed lead acid batteries most favored by experimenters
do not tolerate hardened sulfation well and will invariably develop "shorts" in one
or more of the cells as they are being rejuvenated.  The plate separators (glass mat)
are too thin and the hardened sulfate crystals are often able to physically punch
through the separators as the crystals grow and expand as a consequence of chronic
undercharging of the battery.

This probably explains why Bedini and Co. are bringing their battery charging
algorithms into conformity with established conventional wisdom regarding battery
care and maintenance in their newer product lines.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Farmhand on July 06, 2014, 07:04:03 AM
And another thing that isn't mentioned much is that a lot of problems can be avoided if any "starter type" batteries
are kept charged up. If they are allowed to self discharge and the voltage gets too low then sulfation will creep in.
I've seen quite a few experimenters discharge batteries and run setups with batteries that are basically discharged
for too long, after discharging a lead acid battery it should be recharged immediately no matter how much energy was
removed from it, the rules I go by are, if I use it I recharge it as soon as I finish with it, and if I have batteries sitting I
recharge them every couple of weeks or so. I usually give them a usage as well.

Hard charging with a gassing battery which traps the gas in bubbles I think causes the plates to be exposed (in the bubbles)
while they get heated up by the charging current. So avoiding excessive gassing has to be a good thing as well.

..
 
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: SeaMonkey on July 06, 2014, 07:30:35 AM
Very well stated FarmHand!  Lead-Acid batteries like to
be worked within their designed zone of maximum performance
and high reliability.

Recharging them fully as soon as possible after each use is
vitally important.  Overcharging and excessive gassing are
battery killers.

They need lots of TLC just like the household cat or dog.

Maybe even just a bit more...

Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: MarkE on July 06, 2014, 09:22:24 AM
Watching that video made a design sketch flash into my brain. Instead of using Time to regulate the pulse charging ... use Voltage! Use an op-amp comparator to monitor the voltage on the Capacitor as it charges up, and flip to the dump mode when the cap reaches the setpoint voltage!
This would be ideal for compensating for varying solar illumination because with variable input to the PV it will take more or less time to get the cap to its optimum voltage for discharging into the battery. If you use regular time intervals, the cap will sometimes have more charge (voltage), sometimes less, depending on the input light at the PV panel.
So using the op-amp comparator will allow you to set the voltage at which the cap dumps into the battery and also automagically compensates for varying input power as from a solar panel, charging the cap to the same voltage but taking longer or shorter time intervals to do it. Also you can just put in different cap banks and the system will automagically compensate, because it takes longer to charge a bigger cap to the same voltage, etc.
If you want  to do this with a solar cell and harvest every last drop, then the thing to do is build a very efficient DC - DC that goes between the solar cell(s) and an intermediate storage device such as a capacitor bank.  Then you insert a DC-DC converter between that intermediate store and your load circuit.  This gives you a degree of freedom to deal with each of the main variables:  The solar cell MPP, and your load circuit's V-I characteristic.
Title: Re: Bedini SG notes
Post by: Paul-R on July 07, 2014, 05:11:09 PM

I wonder if anyone has worked on this JB patent, "Crcuits and related methods for charging a battery".

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=7990110