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Author Topic: Bedini SG notes  (Read 26128 times)

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2014, 02:27:50 AM »
Pirate, I also had one battery act funny when I used a SG on it, the problem then arises that we need to avoid doing the same
thing in other ways.
I like to use batteries for experiments as well, I find when I have a battery that is sulfated if I use a pulse discharge circuit to just
get some charge on the battery, then discharge it with a decent load for a bit then immediately put it on a regular solar charge
controller they usually take current and charge up, then if I leave them for a few days and discharge again then back to the solar
charge again they come back on line. I have a large motorcycle battery and mine is sus it gases off continuously there is hardly any
room in there for electrolyte, gotta keep a good eye on that.  I like it for experiments though because it's a wet cell that is smallish.
It's the one I can grab and use. I'll look up those vids, always like a good experiment video.

..

I think to get really good battery charging we need to treat each battery individually, and if we are working with a "bank" we might
want to try to get all the batteries to a similar state.

Each battery will likely have a specific applied charging voltage at which the transfer of power will be best, depending on it's
state and size ect. If we have a source like solar panels then it's good to get the applied voltage to stay at the maximum power
voltage of the panels which with solar panels is known and is about 17 to 18 volts usually with a panel for charging a 12 volt battery.
However that might not be the best voltage for the transfer of power, depending on the battery and it's condition ect. .

Would be interesting to get a calculated range of best power transfer voltages for a "typical" 12 volt battery. Maybe one of the Engineers could help us to work it out.

Some say double the battery voltage or almost, but my ears tell me it's a bit less, about 20 volts for the batteries I tried, going by
when the pinging in the wires dulls. I took that as meaning the energy was taken in and not reflected so much, I could hear it.  :)

..

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2014, 02:27:50 AM »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2014, 03:10:59 AM »
As I have stated in another topic, ALL of my 5 Bedini type motors only gave a "surface charge"  or "empty voltage" to the charging battery.  I started out with new bats and after a little while (no matter what the meters were showing me) the run bat could no longer run the motor.  This happened with 9 volt bats and 12 volt bats...it was all the same with all of my replications.  Everything always looked good, higher voltage going into the charging battery than from the run battery but, in the end, when you swapped them out more than a few times, the motor would no longer run at all.

After my experiments with the 2 new motorcycle bats (12 volt) which cost me like $50 each, I decided to use them for other experiments but learned that they would no longer charge up using my car battery charger and, when I returned them to where I had purchased them, they tested them and said they were both "shot".

This again is my own experience and you can watch my videos at youtube by looking at Piratelabs.

Bill


I have a pile of dead batteries too from the SG. I brought the subject up at the motor shop, and the owner went ballistic about suing Bedini for all the customer batteries his plug in charger killed! I can light a 120 volt AC LED bulb off the Bedini SG charger electrodes. I think it's some kind of low ripple AC that's deadly to the lead acid battery!   

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2014, 11:07:26 AM »
The patent Bedini 6392370 is a more interesting device because it has a permanent magnet involved and if it was able to
successfully harness the energy from the magnet then it might have some possibility of showing some interesting results.
However all of my experiments with permanent magnets and "flux switching" have come up to nix so far. I've tried a few
solid state (static) ways but there are a couple of more ways I would like to try with a moving rotor involved.

Link to patents - https://sites.google.com/site/johnbediniresearcharchive/john-bedini-u-s-patent

Anyway if we then look to the patent 6677730 we can see the device is a "two stage (phase) capacitor pulser",
In the first stage it charges the capacitor bank by connecting the supply to the caps, then in the second stage
it disconnects the capacitor bank from the supply and connects it to the batteries to discharge the capacitor bank to the
batteries and charge them.

Basically I think this is or was the Bedini "Tesla Solar Charger" circuit  :D And possibly the regular wall chargers circuit as
well.

I built the circuit and first thing I noticed is that the circuit "open circuits the supply" for the time period of the second stage (phase),
which is more than likely close to 50% of the duty. (it can be adjusted as by the patent), that is fine if the supply is the grid or other
such supply that is not time dependent like the Sun.

If the circuit is used with solar panels then it effectively halves the time the panels can output power as the supply duty is
restricted to the length of one out of two phases. Any time the sun is shining and the panels are not outputting power that
power is wasted or left unharnessed would be a better term.

Not the best for a solar setup.

How the big amps are shown is simply the dumping of the capacitors charged to 20 volts or more into the battery/bank.

I think at the demo they showed like an intermittent (x) amps into the setup with a much larger amps pulsating out, and allowed
people to think it was OU. To get a big cap bank charged to over 20 volts quickly from solar panels you would need to use two panels in series, otherwise the panels struggle to charge the caps to the full voltage of the panels, the last few volts would be
slow to get on the cap bank from 12v panels (not series array) as compared to the rate of charging from 14 to 18 volts from the
same panels. A series set of panels will charge the cap bank from 14v to 24 v in quick time though and I think that is what he did.
It would more or less waste one panels output if done like that with 50% duty for each phase (stage).



..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2014, 11:07:26 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline MarkE

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2014, 11:10:56 AM »
Pirate, I also had one battery act funny when I used a SG on it, the problem then arises that we need to avoid doing the same
thing in other ways.
I like to use batteries for experiments as well, I find when I have a battery that is sulfated if I use a pulse discharge circuit to just
get some charge on the battery, then discharge it with a decent load for a bit then immediately put it on a regular solar charge
controller they usually take current and charge up, then if I leave them for a few days and discharge again then back to the solar
charge again they come back on line. I have a large motorcycle battery and mine is sus it gases off continuously there is hardly any
room in there for electrolyte, gotta keep a good eye on that.  I like it for experiments though because it's a wet cell that is smallish.
It's the one I can grab and use. I'll look up those vids, always like a good experiment video.

..

I think to get really good battery charging we need to treat each battery individually, and if we are working with a "bank" we might
want to try to get all the batteries to a similar state.

Each battery will likely have a specific applied charging voltage at which the transfer of power will be best, depending on it's
state and size ect. If we have a source like solar panels then it's good to get the applied voltage to stay at the maximum power
voltage of the panels which with solar panels is known and is about 17 to 18 volts usually with a panel for charging a 12 volt battery.
However that might not be the best voltage for the transfer of power, depending on the battery and it's condition ect. .

Would be interesting to get a calculated range of best power transfer voltages for a "typical" 12 volt battery. Maybe one of the Engineers could help us to work it out.

Some say double the battery voltage or almost, but my ears tell me it's a bit less, about 20 volts for the batteries I tried, going by
when the pinging in the wires dulls. I took that as meaning the energy was taken in and not reflected so much, I could hear it.  :)

..

..
There are good and relatively inexpensive desulfating Pb acid battery chargers out there.  A modest amount of pulsing to desulfate Pb acid batteries is a good thing.  Hammering on Pb acid batteries with voltage pulses way above 2.1V / cell is a good way to quickly destroy Pb acid batteries.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2014, 12:38:55 PM »
Yes when I desulfate my own batteries I use only 1000 uF capacitor kHz frequencies and low power only until the battery has some
charge on it or intermittently.
I have a good rejuvenating charger I bought for $110.00 it works pretty good.

I usually just let the regular solar charge controller charge the batteries for a day or two and it pulses them (in a way) when it floats
the batteries, if it's busy then I can't use that.

I'm not a fan of the very low frequency high current pulsing method. It's kinda scary.

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2014, 12:38:55 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2014, 01:14:55 PM »
I just remembered I have a video from March 2011, back then there was quite a bit of fuss over the "Tesla" Solar Chargers from
Johns mob.
As it was rumored that the Johns patent above was the circuit, I decided to build it and see what happened. Even a crude beginner
like me at the time could see that the solar panels if used would be idle for 50% of the time.  :) So it was of no use to me for that.  ;)

Two stage pulse charger clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY

Offline MarkE

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2014, 01:35:43 PM »
I just remembered I have a video from March 2011, back then there was quite a bit of fuss over the "Tesla" Solar Chargers from
Johns mob.
As it was rumored that the Johns patent above was the circuit, I decided to build it and see what happened. Even a crude beginner
like me at the time could see that the solar panels if used would be idle for 50% of the time.  :) So it was of no use to me for that.  ;)

Two stage pulse charger clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY
One of your meters is the same model as a donated meter that TinselKoala uses.   I haven't looked at the schematics, but from what the meters were doing and your description, it looks designed to beat up on the batteries that it charges.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2014, 01:35:43 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2014, 09:30:20 PM »
I've noticed that the Excel XL830L DMM is a lot more sensitive to RF noise than the Harbor Freight Cen-Tech meters. (Most probably not a factor in Farmhand's setup.) Of course I only have a sample of one of the XLs, compared to about half a dozen of the Cen-Techs. But it's pretty easy to make the XL830 give bad indications if there is a lot of HF noise around, even when the meter isn't connected to the HF source. The Cen-Tech meters have a metal foil shield of sorts built into the case; I don't think the XL830 does. Other than that, I like the XL meter OK. It has a cool backlight function and a slightly better transistor socket for the Hfe test than the other meters. The thing I don't like about it is that the rotary switch is also the on-off switch, so the rotary switch gets a lot more use and stress than it needs to. The Cen-Tech meters have a separate on-off switch, but no backlight. And of course the XL meter has the neat little Fluke-type yellow sleeve thing, the Cen-Techs are just basic plastic boxes without sleeves.

But the really really neat thing about the XL meter (besides the fact that it was donated!) is that it came with an extra 9V battery!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2014, 09:44:08 PM »
I just remembered I have a video from March 2011, back then there was quite a bit of fuss over the "Tesla" Solar Chargers from
Johns mob.
As it was rumored that the Johns patent above was the circuit, I decided to build it and see what happened. Even a crude beginner
like me at the time could see that the solar panels if used would be idle for 50% of the time.  :) So it was of no use to me for that.  ;)

Two stage pulse charger clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvLomd757DY
Watching that video made a design sketch flash into my brain. Instead of using Time to regulate the pulse charging ... use Voltage! Use an op-amp comparator to monitor the voltage on the Capacitor as it charges up, and flip to the dump mode when the cap reaches the setpoint voltage!
This would be ideal for compensating for varying solar illumination because with variable input to the PV it will take more or less time to get the cap to its optimum voltage for discharging into the battery. If you use regular time intervals, the cap will sometimes have more charge (voltage), sometimes less, depending on the input light at the PV panel.
So using the op-amp comparator will allow you to set the voltage at which the cap dumps into the battery and also automagically compensates for varying input power as from a solar panel, charging the cap to the same voltage but taking longer or shorter time intervals to do it. Also you can just put in different cap banks and the system will automagically compensate, because it takes longer to charge a bigger cap to the same voltage, etc.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2014, 09:44:08 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2014, 11:32:00 PM »
Yep, I used voltage level to trigger my picaxe solar pulser to dump it's cap and to stop charging when the battery voltage went too
high and the input voltage triggered weather or not to use the boost converter to pump up the cap or to just let the panel voltage
do it.
I've posted the schematic and the program code at different times and I should put them both here, I'll try to locate them, the schematic is on the other computer not repaired yet but it might be uploaded to a photo share site. I'll see if I can find it.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2014, 12:03:23 AM »
Here is my circuit and code, the program code has some extra code in the humm section where I was trying out the sleep mode,
not important, the working code is in the boost and charge blocks.

I called it the "Machine of Light" to poke fun at the crew that were working with Bedini at the time that had a circuit they called
the "Machine of Time.  :D They wouldn't share code, only drawings. Eventually they got stiffed anyway by the Bedini "Machine"/crew.

The circuit ground is not indicated on the solar input negative.

The circuit drawing is hard to see when the image is reduced in size so I zipped it and the image is in the zip file.

..
It's not the best design, I can't even say it's a good design, but it worked for me as a project, it's now dismantled, I never
really needed it I just wanted to do it.   ;)

Who needs Bedini anyway, we're supposed be working open source, not idolizing scam artists - profiteers. That was my point,
if we work together we could achieve a lot, I do my projects alone mostly, I just ask for help when I need it or want it, which I
think is how it should be. It's too difficult to agree with a group all the time.

.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2014, 12:03:23 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2014, 01:23:05 AM »

if we work together we could achieve a lot, I do my projects alone mostly, I just ask for help when I need it or want it, which I
think is how it should be. It's too difficult to agree with a group all the time.

.

I agree 100%.

Bill

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2014, 04:26:16 AM »
As I have stated in another topic, ALL of my 5 Bedini type motors only gave a "surface charge"  or "empty voltage" to the charging battery.  I started out with new bats and after a little while (no matter what the meters were showing me) the run bat could no longer run the motor.  This happened with 9 volt bats and 12 volt bats...it was all the same with all of my replications.  Everything always looked good, higher voltage going into the charging battery than from the run battery but, in the end, when you swapped them out more than a few times, the motor would no longer run at all.

After my experiments with the 2 new motorcycle bats (12 volt) which cost me like $50 each, I decided to use them for other experiments but learned that they would no longer charge up using my car battery charger and, when I returned them to where I had purchased them, they tested them and said they were both "shot".

This again is my own experience and you can watch my videos at youtube by looking at Piratelabs.

Bill

You raise good points Pirate.  MileHigh and FarmHand have also
made very sound contributions to understanding the fallacies of
Bedini technology.

To properly maintain a lead-acid battery by means of pulse charging
the pulses applied to the battery must be very substantial; up to
twice the normal battery voltage and a minimum of 10 Amperes for
the duration of each very brief pulse.

If the pulses from the Bedini device are too weak to fully charge the
battery being charged/rejuvenated it will not be fully charged and
sulfation will begin to set in.  Once the sulfation becomes hardened
after several months of chronic undercharging it will exhibit the
"surface charge" phenomenon.

A battery which has lost capacity due to hardened sulfation will partially
respond to weak pulsing and will show what appears to be a normal charged
voltage.  When discharged into a load though, this charge is rapidly dissipated
and the battery becomes dead.  Weak pulses from Bedini inductive discharge
devices (very high voltage but very little current) are simply not strong enough
to reverse the build-up of hardened sulfation so the battery will progressively
get worse and worse as the degree of sulfation increases.  Finally, when heavily
sulfated, the battery will not respond at all to normal charging voltages.

To restore/rejuvenate a battery that has lost nearly all of its capacity to hardened
sulfation, high powered capacitive discharge pulses are required.  Providing the battery
in question hasn't been internally damaged by the sulfation stresses it should
respond to desulfation pulsing over a period of several weeks and most of its
capacity should be made available again.

Unfortunately, the small sealed lead acid batteries most favored by experimenters
do not tolerate hardened sulfation well and will invariably develop "shorts" in one
or more of the cells as they are being rejuvenated.  The plate separators (glass mat)
are too thin and the hardened sulfate crystals are often able to physically punch
through the separators as the crystals grow and expand as a consequence of chronic
undercharging of the battery.

This probably explains why Bedini and Co. are bringing their battery charging
algorithms into conformity with established conventional wisdom regarding battery
care and maintenance in their newer product lines.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2014, 07:04:03 AM »
And another thing that isn't mentioned much is that a lot of problems can be avoided if any "starter type" batteries
are kept charged up. If they are allowed to self discharge and the voltage gets too low then sulfation will creep in.
I've seen quite a few experimenters discharge batteries and run setups with batteries that are basically discharged
for too long, after discharging a lead acid battery it should be recharged immediately no matter how much energy was
removed from it, the rules I go by are, if I use it I recharge it as soon as I finish with it, and if I have batteries sitting I
recharge them every couple of weeks or so. I usually give them a usage as well.

Hard charging with a gassing battery which traps the gas in bubbles I think causes the plates to be exposed (in the bubbles)
while they get heated up by the charging current. So avoiding excessive gassing has to be a good thing as well.

..
 

Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2014, 07:30:35 AM »
Very well stated FarmHand!  Lead-Acid batteries like to
be worked within their designed zone of maximum performance
and high reliability.

Recharging them fully as soon as possible after each use is
vitally important.  Overcharging and excessive gassing are
battery killers.

They need lots of TLC just like the household cat or dog.

Maybe even just a bit more...


 

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