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Author Topic: Bedini SG notes  (Read 24858 times)

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 11:05:59 AM »
Here's a video clip of a very hastily put together demonstration using a universal motor powered by a 12 volt battery
and a DC to DC converter (boost converter), the motor coils are switched by mosfets so that they discharge into a capacitor.
The video shows that when the motor is made to accelerate by applying more voltage/power then the coils discharge is less
and the capacitor voltage drops, however when the rotor is slowed by hand "a mechanical load" then the coils draw more power for each cycle because the frequency is lowering and the coils impedance is diminished as well allowing more current and correspondingly the capacitor voltage rises.

Please keep in mind this video was never mean't to be anything more than a demo to show another experimenter.

Coil recovery experiment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAiYzYGOKIs

in that situation energy in the rotor is reduced and the capacitor voltage goes higher.
In the former situation the energy in the rotor is increased and the capacitor voltage is reduced.
All seems to be in order nothing out of the ordinary, it is as expected.

When energy is increased in the rotor it takes away from the amount of energy the coil has left to discharge.
When energy is decreased in the rotor it leaves more energy for the coil to discharge.

This is an important factor that is denied or ignored by many Bedini fans.

..

Please see previous page for the beginning of the patent discussion.  :)

..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 11:05:59 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 01:25:21 PM »
It is interesting to note, that while the current flow direction remains the same in the inductor through the on/off cycle,the voltage is inverted when the inductor switches off..So could this be the thinking behind the back EMF to forward EMF switch?.

Another good build,is to use electron flow,insted of conventional current flow. For this you will need a pnp transistor,and im sure you can all work out how to wire the rest of the circuit up.

Offline tinman

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 01:27:13 PM »
Then you can merge both together :P
See if you can work out how to get an inductive kickback from both directions,using onlyone single run coil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nxvLsXos_g

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 01:27:13 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 10:01:15 PM »
It all depends on how you define the terms and definitions doesn't it.

Counter emf, Back emf, are they one and the same to you or is Back emf the coil discharge and counter emf the Lens drag,
or is Back emf the Lens drag and the coil discharge is just a coil discharge.

To me Back emf and counter emf are one and the same, the coil discharge is a coil discharge and is forward emf which faces it's
own counter emf produced in the wire when it discharges.

The coil discharge can be called "flyback" or whatever, but why mix it is with counter emf by calling it back emf ?

A coil can discharge from either or both ends yes.

I still say my idea of feeding the coil discharge back to a charging circuit which helped turn the rotor and increase the voltage for the main motor coil was a more complete way to utilize the coil discharge to turn the rotor. Being that the rotor seen two
separate driving phases the torque was increased significantly.

The main point of the video experiment was to show that when a motor is made to accelerate the rotor there is less energy left
to discharge from the coils.

And when the rotor is made to slow down by a mechanical load there is more energy left to discharge from the coils.

While adding energy to the rotor the coils consume more of the energy they take up and less is left to discharge, this is direct evidence that the mechanical work is not free as John claims.

While taking energy from the rotor with a mechanical load the coils have more energy to discharge. This backs up the assertion
that the turning of the rotor consumes energy and so the mechanical output from a Bedini machine is not free.

..

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 10:09:39 PM »
Tinman I can't get what your doing without a drawing.

Regardless the coil can only discharge the energy it takes in, it cannot discharge energy it does not take in.
All the energy taken in by the coil originates from the supply. No one has given any proof as to otherwise.

Why do so many people want to mix terms ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 10:09:39 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2014, 10:49:10 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU

If there's no rotor... It's not a motor. If there's no rotor... where else could the spike energy be coming from?  The rotor is actually a _drag_ and reduces the power available for the spikes. In the traditional Bedini motor the rotor is necessary because of the triggering system using the two co-wound coils and the moving magnets on the rotor. But the rotor wastes energy, it is actually a Red Herring, a shiny spinny thing useful mostly to distract the terrestrial primates away from watching their wallets carefully. If you want to recycle spike energy for some reason, like charging batteries, get rid of the wasteful rotor!



Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 11:41:13 PM »
Quite right Tinsel, but Bedini also uses the ability of the wheel to output mechanical work as a part of the advantage possible. But
then he maintains it's not a motor, a contradiction.

Anyway I agree if it's the "spike" energy we want then there is no need for the wheel and it can only be a loss. Then we have a
basic boost circuit.  ;)

And as well the high turn smallish gauge wire in the Bedini coils would mean that they cannot be very efficient by design, to be truly
efficient we need as least resistance as possible. Paralleling coils may reduce overall resistance but the individual resistance of
each wire remains the same.

I think the best setup would have thick wired very low resistance coils and use synchronous rectification or Shottky's and work at the correct
frequency and duty for the coils and input voltage ect. It would have low loss core material as well, maybe air. The switches would be
correctly rated mosfets or other more efficient switch and the switching would be done with as low a losses as possible.

I still think the patent is worded very strangely, it reads funny.

.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 11:41:13 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2014, 11:59:18 PM »
Any coils switched in a way so that there is an output from the diode will produce the same basic effect.
Weather it be driven by a trigger coil or by an oscillator.

In the video below I switch the opposing coils on a toroid both ways so that they act as an inverter the (secondary is an output as well),
And I also switch them as a boost converter by causing the current through the opposing coils to be the same way or just one set
it's a boost converter, if the coils are fed with current of opposing direction then it's an inverter.  Below the setup is discharging
into a battery. and the on duty is adjusted so there is no ring down time with both coil sets firing.

This video is old, I know a lot more now than I did then. Scope is across the secondary I think. Long time ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhS2RHDq0R0

A switched coil is a switched coil.

..

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2014, 04:07:41 AM »
Farmhand:

Quote
MileHigh, if a patent like Bedini's is lodged and as it is claimed, he says it is based on Tesla's radiant energy arrangements then
shouldn't Bedini's patent cite Tesla's Patent as "Prior Art" ?

Perhaps, but I am not the right person to answer that question.  It also suggests a conflict in citing something that is not actually in your own patent.  I think you caught him again.

I read the captures of the Bedini patent you posted and the prose is almost laughable.  It boils down to this:  One well-made 30-minute clip could explain the timing of the energizing and discharging of the main coil, and relate the magnetic field produced with the fly-by of the rotor magnet.  The good old L/R time constant and ... yikes!... Do the math for how a coil discharges into a battery, which in this case looks like a non-linear resistor.  My feeling is that exercise if well done would have the potential to "blow all of the Bedini threads out of the water."  But the potential would likely not be realized.

I know that I am repeating myself, but the heart of the analysis of the motor is to examine the timing of the circuit.  It all boils down to looking at and explaining the timing diagram for a given motor, and then extrapolating the timing analysis to a generic motor.  What happens when you make the coil inductance larger or smaller?  The answer is in the timing diagram.  Ask almost any question about this very simple pulse circuit and the answer lies in the timing diagram.  I am willing to bet you on the Bedini forums the analysis of the motor's timing diagram is almost never discussed.

Once you understand the timing diagram issues then go back and read those two excerpts from the Bedini patent and you won't know whether to laugh or cry.  There was that great phrase that I found recently that applies here, "Not even wrong."

MHOP rules!

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2014, 04:07:41 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2014, 04:29:48 AM »
I also feel there are lots of unanswered questions about the whole scene.  I don't actively read up on the Bedini scene but I know the whole narrative from a few years ago.

Okay, you start with a "dead" battery and you pulse charge it with current pulses that literally force current and energy into the battery.  Then you have a reconditioned battery, success!  The battery now accepts charge and behaves as a normal battery.

But what then?  That's the question that I have never seen raised, and I was exposed to a very wide swath of all things Bedini at one time.

Here is what I suspect:

The "reconditioned" battery will have a very limited number of discharge-charge cycles where it operates normally.  Then fairly quickly it will go "dead" again.

It becomes a cycle of diminishing returns:

Battery    # of recharge cycles

New                    250
1st treatment        30
2nd treatment       20
3rd treatment         8
4th treatment         3
5th treatment         0.5

The "reconditioning" is very limited in benefit in real-world usage.   The whacking of the battery with pulses of current "finds" some "new channels" for battery reagents that were "hiding."  However, they have a limited amount of serviceable usage in them.  The entropy of the battery chemicals is still increasing.  In plain English the chemicals in the battery are still decaying into useless mush.  Pulse charging a battery is just a temporary fix that "stirs up the mush" in the battery to find some remaining "good stuff."

I will repeat this is all my feeling.  In one form or another I think many of us have observed this type of behaviour in our cell phone batteries, or when you played with a battery-operated toy as a child.

One thing for sure, the whole business of "going up in levels" in the Bedini program is all based in reporting consecutive higher voltages in your destination charge batteries.  NO measurements of battery ENERGY, just stupid measurements of voltages.  That's retarded and people jump through those hoops.  They end up thinking that a Bedini motor is the real thing, without ever doing a strict and scientific regimen of battery ENERGY measurements.

MileHigh

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2014, 03:23:46 PM »

Farmhand:
MileHigh, if a patent like Bedini's is lodged and as it is claimed, he says it is based on Tesla's radiant energy arrangements then
shouldn't Bedini's patent cite Tesla's Patent as "Prior Art" ?

Farmhand:
It also suggests a conflict in citing something that is not actually in your own patent.  I think you caught him again.

i am pretty sure you can cite from another patent. He will be saying that he starts off from that point and develops it. It is the development that he can try to patent. But, as i said in the other thread, he has only seven years of patent protection left. He needs to get his a**e into gear pretty soon.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2014, 03:23:46 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2014, 12:18:42 AM »
I think the main point of argument here should be -- When the Bedini SG switches a coil and discharges it to a battery is the effect  any
different to the effect obtained when the same coil is switched by a mosfet that is driven by an oscillator and the coil discharged into a battery.

I say no it is exactly the same effect.

A guy designed a pulse generator ( and posted it at EF) that was designed to connect to the base of the Bedini SG,
the idea was to get the SG running as it should (1 pulse per pass) then stop the wheel and connect the pulse generator to the SG
after first setting the pulse generator frequency to match the SG frequency then when the pulse generator is turned on the
SG operates just the same as when the wheel turns except the output is more. I built the pulse generator circuit and used it and
the waveform was slightly different (no hump) but charging was better and input was less.

I think only myself and another fella built it, and he tried to use his while the wheel was turning.  :D Got a good laugh out of that.

Shows the desire to be discerning is lacking.

..

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2014, 12:36:16 AM »
As I have stated in another topic, ALL of my 5 Bedini type motors only gave a "surface charge"  or "empty voltage" to the charging battery.  I started out with new bats and after a little while (no matter what the meters were showing me) the run bat could no longer run the motor.  This happened with 9 volt bats and 12 volt bats...it was all the same with all of my replications.  Everything always looked good, higher voltage going into the charging battery than from the run battery but, in the end, when you swapped them out more than a few times, the motor would no longer run at all.

After my experiments with the 2 new motorcycle bats (12 volt) which cost me like $50 each, I decided to use them for other experiments but learned that they would no longer charge up using my car battery charger and, when I returned them to where I had purchased them, they tested them and said they were both "shot".

This again is my own experience and you can watch my videos at youtube by looking at Piratelabs.

Bill

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2014, 12:36:48 AM »
Here you go MileHigh, I found this animation. What do you think of this one ? It's been up on you tube for years.

Understanding the Bedini Circuit by introvertebrate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi7cmUpMdX8

..

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Bedini SG notes
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2014, 12:39:44 AM »
Here you go MileHigh, I found this animation. What do you think of this one ? It's been up on you tube for years.

Understanding the Bedini Circuit by introvertebrate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi7cmUpMdX8

..

I used this guys videos and schematics to build my first SSG.  He gave very detailed information and, I noticed that he went on to build more advanced motors but then....quit doing so.  Possibly he learned what I had learned?

Bill

 

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