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Author Topic: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor  (Read 13739 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2013, 05:04:16 PM »
OK, just a quick note:

The FWBR voltage measurement is made across the AC (~ ~) terminals, not the DC side. That way you capture not only the power going into the battery, but also the power being dissipated in the FWBR.

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Offline havuhung

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Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »
Does a simple capacitor step down the grid voltage while driving a load?

The evidence is in the experiment.

Normal power in RLL without the capacitor would be: (.707 x 170)2/100 = 144W
Power in RLL with 10uF capacitor in series is: (.707 x 60)2/100 = 18W

Pure Resistive loads don't give a hoot about phase shift or power factor; the only thing that matters is the rms voltage across them.

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2013, 04:30:15 PM »
A clear demonstration of probe positioning and the impact it has on the displayed phase relationship between current and voltage, and ultimately on the power computation.

"cap_simple02.png" is showing a series-adding positioning of the scope probes; one across the capacitor, and one across a series resistor. The probes are placed + - + - as shown. Note the scope shot "cap_simple02_scope.png" clearly showing that current is leading the voltage by 90º.

"cap_simple03.png" is showing the "standard" way we all connect our scope probes when measuring power in an element, whether it be the Grid source (as in the case shown), or a dissipating element such as RLL. That is, the probes are positioned in series-opposing (+ - - +) so that the probe grounds may be commoned to a single point. What this does is flip the phase relationship between the scope channels by 180º. The result being that in "cap_simple03_scope.png" we still see the current leading the voltage, when in fact it should be the other way around. The current through a source, and the voltage across it are always in anti-phase.

So in order to restore the phase relationship between the voltage and current when making these kind of measurements, we need to invert one of the scope channels.

This also holds true when we apply the same probe-positioning technique when measuring the power dissipated in any other elements in the circuit, such as RLL. Our probes are going to be in series-opposing, so one channel needs to be inverted on the scope in order to restore the correct phase relationship, and obtain the correct polarity of power.

Having done so in both cases will not only result in displaying the correct phase relationship between the current and voltage, but it will produce the correct polarity when using the MATH function in the scope to obtain an average power measurement of the element of interest.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 08:17:21 PM »
And now to the battery charging application of this circuit.

"bat_charge01.png" illustrates the circuit with a large capacitor replacing the battery. This charges up quite quickly so it is all over in about 1 second. But as it turns out, this is a convenient number as we shall see. Notice the dropping capacitor has been reduced from 10uF to 5uF.

"bat_charge01_scope.png" shows the battery charging up from the initial 12.5V to about 14.35V in 1 second (1s).

"bat_charge02.png" shows one way to measure the power going into the charging circuitry and battery. Notice that the probes are placed in series-opposing and that the scope MUST be gnd-isolated in order to make this measurement. Note, lifting the gnd on your oscilloscope is dangerous and done at your own risk.

"bat_charge02b_scope.png" illustrates the computation involved in obtaining the average power going into the charging circuit and battery. The current probe channel was inverted to restore proper phase, and was multiplied by 10x to account for the 0.1 Ohm resistor. The average power computes to +2.825W. It so happens that this works out to 2.825J as this is over a 1s period.

"bat_charge03.png" illustrates the probe setup to measure the Grid power. Once again the probes are in series-opposition, so the current channel will be inverted to restore proper phase. The scope does not require gnd isolation if the bottom terminal is the Grid Neutral.

"bat_charge03b_scope.png" illustrates the computation involved in obtaining the average power used from the Grid. The current probe channel was inverted to restore proper phase, and was multiplied by 10x to account for the 0.1 Ohm resistor. The average power computes to -2.83W. It so happens that this works out to -2.83J as this is over a 1s period.

So despite the phase shift and PF changes resulting from using a step-down capacitor, the energy equation (used vs. sourced) remains in balance. Note: Kirchhoff's laws apply to power as well as voltage and current. i.e. the sum of the powers in a circuit must equal zero (unless of course you have an OU device in hand). ;)

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 08:17:21 PM »
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Offline Groundloop

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2013, 08:32:19 PM »
Hi .99,

Does you simulator have a battery simulated, or did you simulate a capacitor on the output?

Batteries has a high internal resistance when depleted. Capacitors has a low resistance when depleted.

So if you simulate a "real" battery on the output, then the current usage from the mains will start
out low and increase when the battery gains charge.

GL.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2013, 09:32:12 PM »
GL,

I simulated a partially depleted battery with a capacitor as shown.

The capacitor was charged to 12.5V at the start of the run, so it emulates quite nicely a partially depleted battery. A real partially depleted battery when charged with a constant voltage (within its spec'd current) will draw a higher current initially, then taper off as the battery terminal voltage approaches about 1.2V or so less than the charging voltage.

This simulated battery is basic and not a real battery (I never claimed it was), but for all intents and purposes, it serves well to demonstrate the intended teachings.

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2013, 09:32:12 PM »
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Offline lancaIV

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2013, 02:19:55 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2013, 03:03:31 PM »
What happened Hob?

Merry Christmas everyone!  :)

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2013, 03:03:31 PM »
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Offline a.king21

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2013, 04:23:23 PM »
"Me thinks some people protesteth too loudly."
Shakespeare.


Thanks nilrehob and gotoluc


Merry Christmas too all.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2013, 04:55:31 PM »
"Clear analysis, questions and explanations constitute "protest" which is "too loud", most often to the opinion of those that are afraid to consider they may be in err."

Kudos to those who see beyond the "obvious" and with the gumption to question.

.99

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2013, 04:55:31 PM »
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Offline infringer

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Re: Charging battery from mains is series with a capacitor
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2013, 07:10:51 PM »
poynt99 I am curious what simulation software you are using? Would be good to have for many different purposes while this may not be one of them. I am sure there is a higher potential for error using simulation than there is performing the actual tests while it does appear your results point to the direction and your intent is to educate I see you have become a lot more patient and forgiving over time at this forum and I thank you for all of your work and efforts in sharing your knowledge with us.

I would really love to score the simulation software for purposes other than this thread if you would please share any info in how to gain this a name and a way to gain it in an "Open Source" manner if you wish you could PM me the info as it would possibly allow me to gain some insights a bit quicker than hands on would allow me to.

I wish the claim was more clearly expressed by the claimer as it seems often there is no claim presented just observation and this I believe is for fear that the claim may be incorrect at times and to that I say so what if your wrong you are wrong it is still a gain of education on the matter.

Rehashing and reinvestigation is not a bad thing whether it is conventional wall wart tech or not there is much to be learned from this and it is possible that something may have been missed discoveries of the importance of things often come as a collaberation of small things that by themselves are not as important. A good show on the discovery channel or history channel that explores how little discoveries add up to big findings when pieced together and I am all for it in the proper manner and stability of educated thought such as what you have provided should not be thrown out for it too is equally important so we don't stray from what is already known about the basics.

However whether it is a simulated test or not does hold bearing as it was pointed out so to specify this is also of importance.

In the spirit of Christmas I would like to wish everyone here a great day and days to follow it is my hope that somehow all of this work and theory will lead to a better Quality of Life for every living thing.

 

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