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Antigravity => Other antigravity machines and devices => Topic started by: leviterande on December 17, 2013, 06:39:17 PM

Title: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 17, 2013, 06:39:17 PM
The paper from 2004:
Highly interesting yet this paper is never discussed anywhere.

http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf

The experiment done by Dr. Doyle Buehler on just ordinary insulated 1ft  parallel plate capacitors. polarity up or down doesn't matter. Weight is reduced. As you can see from the paper this is not ion wind, not electrostatic phenomena, not repulsion of Earths negative field. This is only real  true anti-gravity weight reduction thus far seen by me.

I have read and researched quite a bit in this field and done even more testing & experimentation with homemade relatively powerful parallel plate capacitors but not once have I got a 1gram weight change.(single plates lose weight however) Is my equipment that poor? or Doyle Buehler´s paper made up which would be very strange?

As I understand, a parallel plate capacitor/single plate capacitor should lose weight depending on its energy stored. Doyle Buehler tested different sized caps. All lost some weight. He noticed that "weight -change" increased exactly proportionally with energy stored in capacitor. In his final 7- joule cap. weight reduction of 380grams or nearly a pound was registered.

We should pursue immediate investigation into Doyle Buehlers claimed results , this is not an 93 year old experiment where all threads are lost and this is not an measuring error and the results are not tiny once -in- a- while sub 1gram, but are solid huge  weight changes.

I have contacted him but I havent got an answer from him yet.

If you have any earlier experience with this please share.
Regards
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: synchro1 on December 17, 2013, 08:17:56 PM
Honda corporation did extensive experimentation with this effect. They immersed capacitor plates in mineral oil. Although registering weight loss with charge, nothing as dramatic as reported here was noticed.


http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha.pdf (http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha.pdf)
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 17, 2013, 11:20:50 PM
Honda corporation did extensive experimentation with this effect. They immersed capacitor plates in mineral oil. Although registering weight loss with charge, nothing as dramatic as reported here was noticed.


http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha.pdf (http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha.pdf)


Hi synchro1,
yes indeed, and this also confirms the whole thing.   I know this paper and I have actually long ago calculated the  energy/lift ratio stored in the Honda  capacitor and I believe it turned out roughly  the same ratio as  calculated from Doyle´s  paper  thus matching the 0.47N per J.  One  thing noted however came to my mind a couple of days ago  that may actually be the reason why I didn't get any results.   

I know this is going to sound plain wrong, but Could it be the half wave output feeding the capacitor , I mean that the feeding  of the cap was somehow oscillating. yes a cap is used for ripples so it shouldn't matter but who knows  in this area of research.  Anyway  I used a DSt Flyback.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 18, 2013, 04:39:09 AM


leviterande,


Thanks for posting the link to the PDF. JLN Labs posted some similar effects several years ago. I tried to replicate some of the tests but did not see any change in weight.  :(
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: d3x0r on December 18, 2013, 09:34:01 AM
Interesting; my theory wasn't so far fetched ; far from complete but not out of the ballpark.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: d3x0r on December 18, 2013, 11:18:52 AM
Okay; but I don't get in the JL naudin page, how they get from electrostatic charge to electromagnetic antigravity....


in the case of [size=78%]http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf (http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf)[/size]


single plate, positive charge, observed mass loss. Could this be a lack of electron weight? 
electrons are 1/1000'th (at most) of a proton... so the percentage couldn't be more then something like 3%... hmm so if it is copper, 29 proton, 29 electrons, 34 neutrons (oh see that mass is going to make the electron loss less significant)... like 0.01% like I started with..


so in a positive state it loses more than an electron?


Is there a conductive element that doesn't have neutrons?  Well... element that doesn't have neutrons; that would be hydrogen... and metallic hydrogen; predicted but not created... and if it was created may or may not (but is suspected to be) a stable metalic superconductor up to 290K... but noone knows... and a neutron may be required for conduction...



Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 18, 2013, 11:22:00 AM
The paper from 2004:
Highly interesting yet this paper is never discussed anywhere.
http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf

A very interesting report. Thanks for sharing :)

From those results (assuming they're correct), it looks pretty clear that the force goes up linearly with stored energy - cool. Maybe with about 1 Megavolt you could get some serious lift...

I've played around with HV & home made glass plate caps. My HV supply is 2 car ignition coils wired opposite, big diodes & HV cap. It does about 60Kv from a 30v input. It's quite fierce... But, it's not high enough...

Because it doesn't seem to matter which polarity each plate is - they could be half and half - like a wimshurst machine... Or maybe some kind of triboelectric generator could give the massive voltage required...

:)
Tim

PS: I seem to remember a patent (Harold Aspden?) for a triboelectric flyin' saucer...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 18, 2013, 12:29:48 PM
Can anyone  link  thos JLN labs experiments with capacitor that  you are talking about? I have known JLN labs for a long time and I dont remember he ever tried pure capacitors.. so a link is appreciated.

Tim123,  If you have some paralell plate capciotrs and a HV supply at hand all you gotta do is to charge it and see any weight changes.a digital scale may need to be shielded or you could use a traditional balance.

I encourage everyone here that have paralell plate capciotrs  and a HV source to test them!  I made tests but the more people that are testing the better we can undertand this issue.,  and this is hardly a complicated experiment, all you need is a cap and a HV source and a scale. With all due respect to Dr Doyle he is either right out loud bluffing or we have something of  most extreme importance here that we need to look into this asap.

And no, the weight loss of a postive plate isnt due to loss of electrons physical weight of course. all you need is inbalance of charge that creates  a different  unbalanced pressure in the ether, thats all :) + or - does that.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 18, 2013, 08:37:02 PM
Tim123,  If you have some paralell plate capciotrs and a HV supply at hand all you gotta do is to charge it and see any weight changes.a digital scale may need to be shielded or you could use a traditional balance.

Hi Leviterande :)
  I have tried to make a 'lifter' using the HV supply, but it didn't work, and I gave up... Not because I don't think it'll work, on the contrary, I think it has been well proven. The Biefield-Brown effect is well known.

The reason I'm not pursuing it ATM is partly *because* it's been well proven... I know that to get any decent effect I'd need many hundreds of kilovolts - and I'm not there yet...

This has prompted me to think about it again though... I was serious about the wimshurst idea, and the triboelectric one. To make a practical device it has to be light - and produce a huge electric field...

Fortunately electrostatics is all about light materials. Glass isnt light at all though... :)

The limiting factor in these things is:
 - dielectric strength
 - voltage requirements
 - charge leakage
 - weight

Let's keep talking about it... It's interesting... I'd like to build an electrostatic machine... And I've always wanted my own flyin saucer ;)

Regards
Tim

Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 18, 2013, 09:14:18 PM
Okay; but I don't get in the JL naudin page, how they get from electrostatic charge to electromagnetic antigravity....


The lifters work using Coulomb forces and ionized air.
However there are a number of experiments that do not appear to use ionized air. I found the following to be the most interesting:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lfpt/html/espv1.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lfpt/html/lfpt3xps.htm
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 18, 2013, 09:17:58 PM
Hi Tim, hmm I am not sure if we are on the same road here ;D

 the  lifter is simply something completely different from what the 2004 paper is about.  The lifter is working on  ion wind(at least 99% of the thrust is ion wind) and thus  the  triangle lifter has to be super light and  with the very  low thrust.   no antigravity here.
However,   we are talking about genuine effects here  in the Doyle´s 2004 paper,   i.e.  typical parallel plate capacitors lose weight.  You said you used "glass plate caps" if you have some left, all you need is to put them on a scale and start testing :D!

I made  1ft 5000pf 30kv glass capacitors, charged with  flybacks and got no results but I start to believe that my equipment was poor,  I just found recently  out that my  "faraday caged digital scale" couldn't even tell 2grams from 15grams sometimes....

Good luck
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 18, 2013, 10:17:41 PM
I was under the impression that lifters also worked in a vacuum, and the effect wasn't just ion wind.

Either way - higher voltage is needed - and copper and iron weigh a lot. Teflon & Nylon (& aluminium foil) don't...

:), Tim
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 19, 2013, 10:01:44 AM
Here's a report from 2007, I just found... These mystery 'drones' look and sound a lot like asymmetric capacitors...
http://truthfall.com/weird-dragonfly-aerial-drones-the-chad-photos/

What's the power source, I wonder?

PS, it's a fascinating design... Could be faked of course, but I think some parts actually make technical sense... Like the top 'wires' of the device coming down into the center ring - where the HV source is...  Hmmm.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 19, 2013, 10:13:11 AM
This patent for a "Rolling triboelectric generator" describes one way I think it might work:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4990813

:)
Tim

PS: Attatched is a drawing showing how it might work in the drone - only replace the 'steel rollers' with perhaps aluminium brushes for lightness...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 19, 2013, 06:13:07 PM
Well, I spent the afternoon wrapping presents, and then, as I had the tape out anyway, a capacitor...

The first 3 pics show the construction of the cap.
 - Tinfoil & tape onto teflon baking sheets
 - Correx dielectric & outer case, with Duck tape.

The last pic shows it balanced on a cardboard tube, on a digital scale (1/10 g sensitive), connected to my Wimshurst machine with fine wires.

At full pelt, I get a weight change of 0.0 grams. :D

I'm not sure it it's arcing over inside - I can't tell while turning the Wimshurst.

I might try it with the HV supply - it makes a lot more current, but it may not do a high enough voltage... It needs a new oscillator on it - so I have to fix that first...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 19, 2013, 07:49:12 PM
Good work tim! the more we are the more conclusive data we can collect.

Lets se...,  to  get a fast and simple good picture of  if the capacitor does really charge or if it is  just arcing inside you can do what I did:
-charge the capacitor  ,
-immediately remove the  cables from the supply/wimburst machine
-get the two terminals of the capacitor close to each other to discharge it,  and see  how  far they  arc. if the arc is very short compared to the HV source, the  capacitor voltage reached  is either small or barely being held. It all comes down to how good the dielectric is.

 There is an important point here as well, and that  is how much energy your capacitor have,  if you know the dimensions you can easily calculate it.

 I used this calculator a lot during my tests to get the energy out.
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml
 
the Teflon sheets looked  very porous with big holes so the  plates my arced right away perhaps... 

Any sheet of plastic  works, thin ones work good too but your wimburst looks like in the 100kv range?,  so thickness should be higher(I used a cutting board once :D)

 I don't know your numbers of your cap and machine but roughly  if your machine is 50kv, and if the cap did  charge  , then  the energy of your cap was around 0.3Joules.   

Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 19, 2013, 10:26:13 PM
Hi Lev,
  thanks :)

I think it's a pretty leaky capacitor... :) I may well re-do it... I can measure it's capacitance - I have a meter.

The teflon sheets are black - the correx is the white stuff. I have a) some more teflon baking sheets, and b) some 6/8mm plate glass I can try.

It's unlikely to be arcing - but I can't tell because turning the wimshurst makes too much noise anyway.

I wonder about having multiple layers? I've not seen any reports on that... If I can get any effect - I'll try it...

I'm working on getting the HV transformer working - it's still in the prototype stage - but it works well... :) I think the enclosure I bought is too small, but I may be able to cram it all in there. the HV parts need covering in resin...

I've attached a pic - FYI

Regards, Tim
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2013, 02:39:06 AM

Anti-gravity device comments:
Doyle R. Buehler reported in his paper "Exploratory Research on the Phenomenon of the Movement of High Voltage Capacitors" published in Journal of Space Mixing 2 in 2004, that charging a capacitor to 0.02 Joules changed its weight by 1 to 2 grams. A 500 pF capacitor charged to 20 KV will have 5 times as much energy (0.1 Joules) and so should have a weight change of 5 to 10 grams. This is a rather large weight change that is easily measureable by most scales. It should not be necessary to build a parallel plate capacitor since 500pF/30KV unpolarized capacitors are readily available from Information Unlimited (http://www.amazing1.com/) for less than $2.00. The real problem is making sure that the weight change measurement technique is valid.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2013, 04:34:56 AM
Possible test setup?
NOTE - charged high voltage capacitors are dangerous.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 20, 2013, 08:44:31 AM
Hi, Xee, among the tets I made last summer, I indeed tried several ceramic circular cingle plate caps at 30kv 4200pf and three of them at once but no weight change.  but I am not sure if area plays a roll here.. in any case always try first a single layer paralell plate cap, multilayer will complicate things greatly and Buehler did use single layer only.
but ofcourse we should try all configurations.
 
BTW xee, I never put the capacitor in this position as you showed as this  resulted in zero lift in the 2004 paper but who knows what maye work

My first thought after my failed tests was immidiatley that Doyle lived on a special area of some special magnetic/electrostatic properties. i.e. the ground under his lab or in the lab or something..

Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2013, 09:19:08 AM

BTW xee, I never put the capacitor in this position as you showed as this  resulted in zero lift in the 2004 paper but who knows what maye work



??? Where does it say this? You have read this much more carefully than me, but figure 13 seems to indicate that the weight change is a function of the energy stored in the capacitor. So I am assuming that the type of capacitor is unimportant as long as the energy is stored between the positive and negative parallel plates. The ceramic capacitor are parallel plates, just a lot of them stacked together.



Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 20, 2013, 11:11:33 AM
I have some 10v 0.22F caps. I charged one to 9v - which is 8.9J. I observed no weight change.
http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php

I think the electric field has to be free to interact with the environment - rather than being encased in a metal shield... In fact - that's what Buehler found, eh...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 20, 2013, 07:38:02 PM
This guy has done loads of good tests:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ1dKp8QopU
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 20, 2013, 08:35:58 PM
I did some work on my HV transformer today - it's not bad, but it illustrates what I was saying about higher voltage needed for this type of research...

My Wimshurst - at full pelt - will make 50mm sparks - i.e. 50-100Kv. The HVT - at 60w input - makes 25mm sparks (but much brighter & fatter) (i.e. 25-50Kv)

But - to get a decent amount of lift needs 100Kv+. Which is why I was suggesting triboelectric stuff...

I wonder, if an electret could be charged enough - could it be made to weigh nothing?
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 20, 2013, 09:46:58 PM




It appears that his results were due to ionizing air, similar to lifters. Thus weight change was not a result of energy stored in the capacitor (an erroneous conclusion).


from page 6 of report:
"Constant voltage was applied to the capacitors during measurements."
"the surrounding air becomes conductive through ionization"



Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 20, 2013, 10:46:02 PM
Unfortunately this is by far  not the case xee,   I dont know what is really going on in that experiment but I can tell you precisely what it is not. it is not a result of:

-ionized air
-repulsion against the earths official negative charge

you can see clearly why  very simply from tests and from the paper
 There are so many reasons that you can see in the paper  and that I did myself at home. but in short,   if we suppose it is a  force due tu ionization , a parallel capacitor is the most INEFFICIENT electrical device to do that, why?  the charge is held on the plates´ inner facing sides, not on the outside,  the outside sides of the plates are neutral. Any leakage would be where the terminal contacts are and if there is any  ionization there it is perfectly symmetrical and cant produce thrust, but if it is even  asymmetrical, the force due tu the ionization at the side  terminals is is unbelievably tiny, but even if this ionizations is  asymmetrical and big, the capacitor should work in the faraday cage but it didn't at all as mentioned in the paper, the other ion grid worked in the faraday cage however!:)

I tried really leaky giant capacitors,  you can hardly get any thrust ... 

By constant  voltage he meant that to compensate for the loss of charge  he needed to keep charging it, it is the complete opposite to  ion EHD devices.  The more leaky the capacitor is the less thrust he got.

I analyzed and researched quite a bit, if I got some results I would be relieved, but its not entirely impossible it was all my poor digital scales fault? In any case my almost final semi educated guess after lots of thinking is this:

The very seemingly careful engineer and experimenter Doyle looks like he has made two very huge and vital mistakes:
1- he created really really really  leaky capacitors to ionize the surrounding air
2- and he  forgot to remove the  metal plate/lamp-plate/metal piece  hanging from the roof above the capacitor!


Take these two and  it makes perfect sense! But he got  to be quite idiotic to  do that...and the caps were actually heavily insulated from all sides...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on December 21, 2013, 07:01:17 PM
This topic reminds me of the Bashars spacecraft engine topic with it's (imo) 2 capacitive hemispheres. Maybe in this case here we should also use hemispheres... like a Van-De-Graaff generator, which can be charged much better than simple plates, and furthermore has all its charge outside the sphere instead of inside, and also allows hundred or millions of volts.

Btw. after your experiments I can assume that nothing happens until a certain threshold is passed. It reminds me of a behaviour like this: trying to put 2 opposite magnet poles together: first nothing happens, but at a certain point it suddenly makes a jump/repells each other violently. Impossible to get a linearly ascending result though.

Unfortunately it gets dangerous when the voltages are so high...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 21, 2013, 08:17:08 PM
This topic reminds me of the Bashars spacecraft engine topic with it's (imo) 2 capacitive hemispheres. Maybe in this case here we should also use hemispheres... like a Van-De-Graaff generator, which can be charged much better than simple plates, and furthermore has all its charge outside the sphere instead of inside, and also allows hundred or millions of volts.

Hi gauschor :)
  I agree that (hemi) spheres are ideal - all the charge on the outside - lots o volts - definitely.

Anything channeled is 100% guaranteed to be BS IMO... But it might have some elements of truth in it.

I've been wondering about making a high-power triboelectric gen - to keep the weight down, but still give 100s of KV...

Quote
Btw. after your experiments I can assume that nothing happens until a certain threshold is passed.

It does seem that's the case. T Townsend Brown was using 50Kv to start with... I don't think I can get more than 30Kv ATM...

I wonder if AC would work? Bueler's test's indicated that it might... In which case perhaps the HV could be supplied by a tesla coil?

Regards, Tim
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: xee2 on December 21, 2013, 10:59:17 PM
I wonder if AC would work?


If you are getting 30KV AC you can make a simple voltage double to get 60KV.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on December 22, 2013, 10:00:41 AM
It might indeed be better to power the cap first with a power supply other than a Wimshurst. I like Wimshursts/Toeplers a lot, but from what I recall Townsend always said that at least 1mA current is required (a quick search in fact reveals "Brown recommended a HV supply of +/- 50KV with at least 1 mA to begin with").
Unfortunately the Wimshurst delivers only something like Nano or Picoampere, so therefore we might not see any effect using them.

But before I speak further I should really read this paper... edit: finished, it's a great read, though I miss specific values for voltage/amperage. I still assume something like 1+ mA was used. Very interesting that it just reduces weight no matter the polarity. So they mostly stopped at a 100KV supply and almost reached 20% weight reduction. Especially note should be taken on the last experiment (parallel plates, glass dieelectric), that one plate had double the size compared to the other.

But what would happen at 1000 KV ...

 
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 22, 2013, 11:59:53 AM
Hi Xee,
  it's not 30KV Ac - it's pulsed. The HV is taken out when the input power stops - and the collapsing field give you the HV - just as in a standard car arrangement.

Having the 2 coils, should double the output voltage, but I've not done a comparison to see if it's much better than just one. It does deliver a good current...

I've been looking at voltage multiplier circuits, but they do need a decent AC input to start off with... If I reconfigured the car coils - I'd only get maybe 5KV AC to start with...

I think the way to build an effective 'flyin saucer', would be a tribelectric / wimshurst hybrid - I'll try to find the patent I have in mind...

In the meantime - this page has some good info on electrostatic propulsion:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/lostjournals/lostjournals06.htm

PS: "Thomas Townsend Brown... built a special capacitor which utilized a heavy, high charge-accumulating (high K-factor) dielectric material between its plates and found that when charges with between 70,000 to 300,000 volts, it would move in the direction of its positive pole. When oriented with its positive side up, it would proceed to lose about one percent of it's weight."
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 22, 2013, 12:13:04 PM
This isn't the one one I was looking for - but it's very interesting:

JF King: Magnetohydrodynamic Propulsion...

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=03322374&PageNum=1&&IDKey=E029FB3404C9&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=3,322,374.PN.%2526OS=PN/3,322,374%2526RS=PN/3,322,374
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on December 22, 2013, 05:54:30 PM
Small link also here (though only the last 3 pages 36-38 of interest, it's a letter from Townsend to J. Naudin describing some things: http://www.scribd.com/doc/20640883/Force-on-an-Asymmetric-Capacitor-Antigravity-Ufo-Army-Report-Arl-Tr-3005 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/20640883/Force-on-an-Asymmetric-Capacitor-Antigravity-Ufo-Army-Report-Arl-Tr-3005)

I noted that Townsend wrote that at 150KV+ substantial force is experienced and that when he mentioned 50KV in reality he meant 50-250KV.

Btw. somewhere else I found information that experiments with this antigravity capacitor have happened since 1954 or so... unbelievable that now - 70 years later we still use aircraft using outdated propulsion mechanisms - and while they work, they are more dangerous due to their rotating/moving parts and most likely require even more power. But that's just a guess.

Hail to the internet as eventually hidden knowledge comes to the surface. It was much easier to keep things secret in the past.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on December 23, 2013, 01:30:39 PM
It would be awesome, if we could create a levitating effect on a cap the size of a toy, be it lightweight like a small ping pong ball, with the power of a Wimshurst. Just to see and build upon on a non-fatal setup.

This guy uses a similar setup as Townsend: a cap hanging from atop and which moves not because of ion wind, but because of the charged cap with 27K voltage (caps are enclosed) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCWZnX3Q8_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCWZnX3Q8_I) Maybe it is possible to replicate this effect with a Wimshurst.
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 23, 2013, 02:29:17 PM
gauschor , yes this video I thought  was interesting to me as well but it could very well be ion wind.. or motion of ions. Just because he enclosed it it doesn't mean that it is  air proof.

  It took a very expensive  and complicated series of tests in 1991-1992  to make a good vacuum chamber and test all the claimed TT brown effects. all configurations were tested. no motion existed when air was gone.

  The motion of all these capacitors on youtube as well as TT browns himself are the following :

-the +/-  wires
-the small leakage of  the cap itself.
The so called gravitator did move  due to the  bare +/-wires that were so thin and long...  I cant believe so many people don't know this, it is so easy,  all you need to do is test.   Yes there will be motion even if you had only two similar wires alone.  because  ions  are   catapulted from one wire to the other. When you put thick  good insulation on the wires the effect is ceased.


Doyles  claimed  capacitors are not  the same.  His caps reacted directly to gravity itself upwards..
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on December 23, 2013, 07:28:36 PM
  It took a very expensive  and complicated series of tests in 1991-1992  to make a good vacuum chamber and test all the claimed TT brown effects. all configurations were tested. no motion existed when air was gone.

This is the thing which confuses me... on the hand they say no motion exists in a vacuum, but continue the experiments claiming that air ions are not the reason for when it moves. What is it now  ???

Or is this effect still dependent on air "somehow" (due to inexplicable reasons), although the ion wind is not the primary reason for it? (just to get the understanding right)
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 23, 2013, 09:59:08 PM
Hello again, just to clear some things up, you don't need air to see thrust of course, all you need is  transportation of matter.  this is why there was  forces observed in some tests in the super vacuum tests.   These strange forces were only with a violent  spark discharge which is a transportation of matter, ions,  molecules, emissions etc...  In any case and at any rate these  forces were not exactly big, they  were around 2x10-4 uN,   iirc
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 24, 2013, 02:41:21 PM
Hi everyone

I am having a conversation with the editor of the published Doyle article himself.  After discussing my and his thoughts we shared the same opinion that it could be down to one single possible key:

In order for the capacitor to lose weight, the rectified  feeding DC should have as much ripple as possible, that is it should be simply half wave rectified with one diode as seen in Doyle's diagram.  I know this sounds strange as it should be no difference .... but still this is the only last point I can think of.    My flyback was a DST CRT flyback and I am not sure how much ripple it had, maybe it was very smooth and therefore it didnt work. If you have therefore an ignition coil that would be the best.. just connect one diode  for the simplest rectification and highest ripple.

Regards

Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on December 24, 2013, 05:42:12 PM
I am having a conversation with the editor of the published Doyle article himself.  After discussing my and his thoughts we shared the same opinion that it could be down to one single possible key:
In order for the capacitor to lose weight, the rectified  feeding DC should have as much ripple as possible,...

It's an interesting thought... So the factors are:
 1) Voltage
 2) Dielectric Relative Permittivity
 3) And potentially also: Pulse / Ripple amplitude & frequency.

I can remove the end capacitor from my HV transformer - that'll give it some ripple... I should imagine it already has a fair bit.

It seems to me that #2 needs thinking about... Air is a poor dielectric... If you look at the list of materials here, there are 2 that stand out to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_permittivity

 a) Water - Er of 80
 b) Calcium Copper Titanate - Er > 250,000

Doyle Buehler got by far the best results with a glass dielectric - with and Er of about 10. Not very high...

The dielectric is probably crucial. Townsend Brown developed a special dielectric - so I read.

I'm in process of making a water dielectric plate for my test capacitor... I've filled a sheet of correx with RO (reverse osmosis) water, and stuck it in the freezer. When frozen, I'll break it out of it's dish, and tape up the edges - sealing the water inside... It should be fun.

Doyle's tests did show detectable weight loss at under 30Kv, so there's a chance it might work with my HVT...

I'm intrigued by the Calcium Copper Titanate - that stuff can really store some energy... It is available to buy in the UK... With an Er of 250,000 - that's 25,000 times more than glass... If energy storage is the key to making those saucers fly - then this stuff will make it easy to build them...
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: leviterande on December 24, 2013, 08:39:57 PM
tim,  voltage and dielectric constant doesn't matter here, what matters is the energy of the  capacitor as long as you are ofcourse above 10kv.  weight loss depends on the energy stored which is a function of voltage and capacitance and you can play with these numbers as you wish.   it is just important to use redundant strong dielectric and glass is cheap, good and strong at good constant of 7.   

 I tried water for a dielectric..  hehe  you only need to try it once :)  water is a high K yes but is a very weak as an insulator and will break down right away just as good as any conductor.  If you want to shield it with any thin  sheets, that would reduce the capacitance greatly  getting you all back to square one. I used glass and it is actually   good, it is not easy to find anything available  with High k and high strength.. therefore glass was used
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on January 01, 2014, 05:01:34 PM
Here's a patent:

"Personal flight vehicle and system"
http://www.google.com/patents/US7182295

"The electric-energy lifting panel includes a first capacitive plate and a second capacitive plate..."
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: d3x0r on January 01, 2014, 06:04:39 PM

Army research on bitfield-brown effect...

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a416740.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a416740.pdf)



Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on January 02, 2014, 07:51:06 PM
Army research on bitfield-brown effect...

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a416740.pdf (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a416740.pdf)

Excellent link, Thanks :)

Quote
In vacuum the same test was carried on with a canopy electrode approximately 6" in diameter, with substantial force being displayed at 150 kVDC
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on January 02, 2014, 08:04:23 PM
Just need that reliable HV power source... How about a Dirod generator...?
http://www.astarcloseup.com/2011/04/building-dirod-electrostatic-generator.html
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1211.0
http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US4595852
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on January 02, 2014, 11:00:33 PM
Most of them resemble a Toepler, but I like the robust materials, even though it makes the machine heavier to rotate. I think it's a good idea to have at least one stable working handcrank device in your repository, so you can experiment with it (be it for antigravity, electrostatics or Testatika-like setups).
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: TinselKoala on January 03, 2014, 12:44:06 AM
Just need that reliable HV power source... How about a Dirod generator...?
http://www.astarcloseup.com/2011/04/building-dirod-electrostatic-generator.html (http://www.astarcloseup.com/2011/04/building-dirod-electrostatic-generator.html)
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1211.0 (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1211.0)
http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US4595852 (http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US4595852)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c)
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: tim123 on January 03, 2014, 02:34:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c)

Nice machine! Wow you really have done a lot of vids...

"The Dirod was constructed in 1999 at the Miles Davis Anomalous Propulsion Laboratory in San Francisco. "

Cool... I didn't know Miles Davis was into anomalous propulsion too. ;)

Have you done any anti-grav type experiments with the dirod? Estimates of output? What do you think about building a flyin' saucer based on one?

Regards, Tim
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: gauschor on June 14, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
So I thought about this antigravity setup from Townsend Brown again:

You got 2 plates, separated by an insulator, and you need an input source of about 20-50µA at 15.000 Volts. It is required, that the poles stay the same all the time. The "-" must be on the bottom and the "+" on the top.

So to reproduce an antigravity effect one one could buy an electroshocker with ~20KV, then attach its output electrodes to some high voltage diode rectifier circuit, then lead the cables straight into whatever antigravity capacitor you wish. Good idea?
Title: Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
Post by: 93RDELEMENT on July 20, 2014, 04:14:49 AM
HELLO ! Sorry to read you guys are still trying to work out anti gravity so I thought I should give you a helping hand . First the term anti gravity is not what your looking for, anti gravity would create a worm hole hahaha so you need to know how to make a change in the flow of gravitons using bosons and produce reverse gravity but that is a bit tricky so best to go for zero gravity . ZERO GRAVITY IS VERY SIMPLE CHECK OUT THE IRAN FLYING SAUCER .....

If you get a bit stuck in deep water don't worry the Iran flying saucer core reactor splits neutrons to produce a sea of free electrons and does produce zero gravity ... But you guys are going for capacitors mmmmmmmm not easy but If your up for some detailing of the head of the proton than you can create an attraction to the charged ionosphere ... But if you understand the term coherence the frequency for a graviton can be jammed just like a radio wave in fact this is what I would strongly suggest and yes you will need scalar waves and capacitors .......

yours truly