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### Author Topic: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!  (Read 49735 times)

#### leviterande

• Newbie
• Posts: 21
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2013, 07:49:12 PM »
Good work tim! the more we are the more conclusive data we can collect.

Lets se...,  to  get a fast and simple good picture of  if the capacitor does really charge or if it is  just arcing inside you can do what I did:
-charge the capacitor  ,
-immediately remove the  cables from the supply/wimburst machine
-get the two terminals of the capacitor close to each other to discharge it,  and see  how  far they  arc. if the arc is very short compared to the HV source, the  capacitor voltage reached  is either small or barely being held. It all comes down to how good the dielectric is.

There is an important point here as well, and that  is how much energy your capacitor have,  if you know the dimensions you can easily calculate it.

I used this calculator a lot during my tests to get the energy out.
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml

the Teflon sheets looked  very porous with big holes so the  plates my arced right away perhaps...

Any sheet of plastic  works, thin ones work good too but your wimburst looks like in the 100kv range?,  so thickness should be higher(I used a cutting board once )

I don't know your numbers of your cap and machine but roughly  if your machine is 50kv, and if the cap did  charge  , then  the energy of your cap was around 0.3Joules.

#### tim123

• Hero Member
• Posts: 509
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2013, 10:26:13 PM »
Hi Lev,
thanks

I think it's a pretty leaky capacitor... I may well re-do it... I can measure it's capacitance - I have a meter.

The teflon sheets are black - the correx is the white stuff. I have a) some more teflon baking sheets, and b) some 6/8mm plate glass I can try.

It's unlikely to be arcing - but I can't tell because turning the wimshurst makes too much noise anyway.

I wonder about having multiple layers? I've not seen any reports on that... If I can get any effect - I'll try it...

I'm working on getting the HV transformer working - it's still in the prototype stage - but it works well... I think the enclosure I bought is too small, but I may be able to cram it all in there. the HV parts need covering in resin...

I've attached a pic - FYI

Regards, Tim

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 02:39:06 AM »

Doyle R. Buehler reported in his paper "Exploratory Research on the Phenomenon of the Movement of High Voltage Capacitors" published in Journal of Space Mixing 2 in 2004, that charging a capacitor to 0.02 Joules changed its weight by 1 to 2 grams. A 500 pF capacitor charged to 20 KV will have 5 times as much energy (0.1 Joules) and so should have a weight change of 5 to 10 grams. This is a rather large weight change that is easily measureable by most scales. It should not be necessary to build a parallel plate capacitor since 500pF/30KV unpolarized capacitors are readily available from Information Unlimited (http://www.amazing1.com/) for less than \$2.00. The real problem is making sure that the weight change measurement technique is valid.

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 04:34:56 AM »
Possible test setup?
NOTE - charged high voltage capacitors are dangerous.

#### leviterande

• Newbie
• Posts: 21
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 08:44:31 AM »
Hi, Xee, among the tets I made last summer, I indeed tried several ceramic circular cingle plate caps at 30kv 4200pf and three of them at once but no weight change.  but I am not sure if area plays a roll here.. in any case always try first a single layer paralell plate cap, multilayer will complicate things greatly and Buehler did use single layer only.
but ofcourse we should try all configurations.

BTW xee, I never put the capacitor in this position as you showed as this  resulted in zero lift in the 2004 paper but who knows what maye work

My first thought after my failed tests was immidiatley that Doyle lived on a special area of some special magnetic/electrostatic properties. i.e. the ground under his lab or in the lab or something..

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 09:19:08 AM »

BTW xee, I never put the capacitor in this position as you showed as this  resulted in zero lift in the 2004 paper but who knows what maye work

Where does it say this? You have read this much more carefully than me, but figure 13 seems to indicate that the weight change is a function of the energy stored in the capacitor. So I am assuming that the type of capacitor is unimportant as long as the energy is stored between the positive and negative parallel plates. The ceramic capacitor are parallel plates, just a lot of them stacked together.

#### tim123

• Hero Member
• Posts: 509
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 11:11:33 AM »
I have some 10v 0.22F caps. I charged one to 9v - which is 8.9J. I observed no weight change.
http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php

I think the electric field has to be free to interact with the environment - rather than being encased in a metal shield... In fact - that's what Buehler found, eh...

#### tim123

• Hero Member
• Posts: 509
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 07:38:02 PM »
This guy has done loads of good tests:

#### tim123

• Hero Member
• Posts: 509
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 08:35:58 PM »
I did some work on my HV transformer today - it's not bad, but it illustrates what I was saying about higher voltage needed for this type of research...

My Wimshurst - at full pelt - will make 50mm sparks - i.e. 50-100Kv. The HVT - at 60w input - makes 25mm sparks (but much brighter & fatter) (i.e. 25-50Kv)

But - to get a decent amount of lift needs 100Kv+. Which is why I was suggesting triboelectric stuff...

I wonder, if an electret could be charged enough - could it be made to weigh nothing?

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 09:46:58 PM »

It appears that his results were due to ionizing air, similar to lifters. Thus weight change was not a result of energy stored in the capacitor (an erroneous conclusion).

from page 6 of report:
"Constant voltage was applied to the capacitors during measurements."
"the surrounding air becomes conductive through ionization"

#### leviterande

• Newbie
• Posts: 21
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2013, 10:46:02 PM »
Unfortunately this is by far  not the case xee,   I dont know what is really going on in that experiment but I can tell you precisely what it is not. it is not a result of:

-ionized air
-repulsion against the earths official negative charge

you can see clearly why  very simply from tests and from the paper
There are so many reasons that you can see in the paper  and that I did myself at home. but in short,   if we suppose it is a  force due tu ionization , a parallel capacitor is the most INEFFICIENT electrical device to do that, why?  the charge is held on the plates´ inner facing sides, not on the outside,  the outside sides of the plates are neutral. Any leakage would be where the terminal contacts are and if there is any  ionization there it is perfectly symmetrical and cant produce thrust, but if it is even  asymmetrical, the force due tu the ionization at the side  terminals is is unbelievably tiny, but even if this ionizations is  asymmetrical and big, the capacitor should work in the faraday cage but it didn't at all as mentioned in the paper, the other ion grid worked in the faraday cage however!:)

I tried really leaky giant capacitors,  you can hardly get any thrust ...

By constant  voltage he meant that to compensate for the loss of charge  he needed to keep charging it, it is the complete opposite to  ion EHD devices.  The more leaky the capacitor is the less thrust he got.

I analyzed and researched quite a bit, if I got some results I would be relieved, but its not entirely impossible it was all my poor digital scales fault? In any case my almost final semi educated guess after lots of thinking is this:

The very seemingly careful engineer and experimenter Doyle looks like he has made two very huge and vital mistakes:
1- he created really really really  leaky capacitors to ionize the surrounding air
2- and he  forgot to remove the  metal plate/lamp-plate/metal piece  hanging from the roof above the capacitor!

Take these two and  it makes perfect sense! But he got  to be quite idiotic to  do that...and the caps were actually heavily insulated from all sides...

#### gauschor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 529
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2013, 07:01:17 PM »
This topic reminds me of the Bashars spacecraft engine topic with it's (imo) 2 capacitive hemispheres. Maybe in this case here we should also use hemispheres... like a Van-De-Graaff generator, which can be charged much better than simple plates, and furthermore has all its charge outside the sphere instead of inside, and also allows hundred or millions of volts.

Btw. after your experiments I can assume that nothing happens until a certain threshold is passed. It reminds me of a behaviour like this: trying to put 2 opposite magnet poles together: first nothing happens, but at a certain point it suddenly makes a jump/repells each other violently. Impossible to get a linearly ascending result though.

Unfortunately it gets dangerous when the voltages are so high...

#### tim123

• Hero Member
• Posts: 509
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2013, 08:17:08 PM »
This topic reminds me of the Bashars spacecraft engine topic with it's (imo) 2 capacitive hemispheres. Maybe in this case here we should also use hemispheres... like a Van-De-Graaff generator, which can be charged much better than simple plates, and furthermore has all its charge outside the sphere instead of inside, and also allows hundred or millions of volts.

Hi gauschor
I agree that (hemi) spheres are ideal - all the charge on the outside - lots o volts - definitely.

Anything channeled is 100% guaranteed to be BS IMO... But it might have some elements of truth in it.

I've been wondering about making a high-power triboelectric gen - to keep the weight down, but still give 100s of KV...

Quote
Btw. after your experiments I can assume that nothing happens until a certain threshold is passed.

It does seem that's the case. T Townsend Brown was using 50Kv to start with... I don't think I can get more than 30Kv ATM...

I wonder if AC would work? Bueler's test's indicated that it might... In which case perhaps the HV could be supplied by a tesla coil?

Regards, Tim

#### xee2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1610
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2013, 10:59:17 PM »
I wonder if AC would work?

If you are getting 30KV AC you can make a simple voltage double to get 60KV.

#### gauschor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 529
##### Re: 1lb lift-force anti-gravity from ordinary charged capacitor!
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2013, 10:00:41 AM »
It might indeed be better to power the cap first with a power supply other than a Wimshurst. I like Wimshursts/Toeplers a lot, but from what I recall Townsend always said that at least 1mA current is required (a quick search in fact reveals "Brown recommended a HV supply of +/- 50KV with at least 1 mA to begin with").
Unfortunately the Wimshurst delivers only something like Nano or Picoampere, so therefore we might not see any effect using them.

But before I speak further I should really read this paper... edit: finished, it's a great read, though I miss specific values for voltage/amperage. I still assume something like 1+ mA was used. Very interesting that it just reduces weight no matter the polarity. So they mostly stopped at a 100KV supply and almost reached 20% weight reduction. Especially note should be taken on the last experiment (parallel plates, glass dieelectric), that one plate had double the size compared to the other.

But what would happen at 1000 KV ...