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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 268420 times)

Offline poynt99

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In short, what it amounts to is this:

The input circuit is of high voltage and low current (hence little to no illumination of the series input bulb), and the output circuit is low voltage and high current, hence the output bulb lights.

And if one was to take the time and effort to measure the source power and the power in the output bulb, they would see UU.

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Offline poynt99

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And a related explanation from my 8 page document I did up for Luc from July 2009:

Quote
The Rbulb [input bulb] intensity (or heat) can not be used reliably to indicate the total amount of power used by the entire circuit! (as confirmed by the results above). IF the bulb is the ONLY element in the circuit, i.e. it is placed across the power source alone, then YES it will indicate directly how much total power is being taken from the power supply by the "circuit", but the circuit in this case only consists of the bulb, the battery, and the connecting wires.

When there are other components in the circuit (such as resistors and coils) and the bulb is in series with them and the power supply, the bulb's intensity is only indicative of the power being dissipated in the bulb itself. It does not indicate how much total power is being taken from the power supply and being used in the whole circuit.

Actually what the bulb intensity DOES indicate is the RMS CURRENT (and only current) from the supply (ask me about this if you do not understand how or why). But as I mentioned before, current is only one half of the power equation, and without taking power supply RMS VOLTAGE into account, you can not know how much total RMS POWER is being taken from the supply and being used in the circuit.

This effect CAN and HAS been simulated.

Offline tinman

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In short, what it amounts to is this:

The input circuit is of high voltage and low current (hence little to no illumination of the series input bulb), and the output circuit is low voltage and high current, hence the output bulb lights.

And if one was to take the time and effort to measure the source power and the power in the output bulb, they would see UU.

My point exactly Darren. This was in relation to Tim's comment-
Quote:  My experience doesn't agree with this... Bulbs show any real power...

I've found I can run an incandescent bulb on the output of a car ignition coil (maybe 5000v, 1000Hz) at 40w, or an MOT (2000v ish), and it's exactly as bright as it is with 40w mains (at 240v AC, 50Hz). Just the same...

As in the scematic i posted,and an actual build of the setup-bulbs dont give an indication of real power being consumed in some setup's.

If current is  a flow of electric charge,then this would mean we have a higher electric charge flowing through G2 than that of G1. This charge is carried by moving electron's,so dose this mean we have a higher electron flow through G2,than that of G1?.

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Offline picowatt

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To poynt99 or anyone who wants to take a go at it

I have a toroid which I wound myself in Bifilar on a Ferroxcube toroid core. It is under test connected to a sine wave output of my SG set at 4.33 Mhz.

My 200Mhz DSO scope is set to DC Coupling and I'm using my non Inductive 2 inch long nichrome wire which I adjusted to 0.1 Ohm. Both scope probes are connected in the standard way to measure power. Ch 1 is voltage and Ch 2 is current.

It seems from the scope math that 3.8W is being returned. I have attached both Non Inverted and Inverted of Ch 2 scope shots so not to have another debate on that matter and also many samples of each versions.

I have checked my DSO scope against Thane's Tektronic before returning it to him just to make sure it was accurate and found mine to be better as far as comparing math data between Ch 2 inverting or not. So I don't think this is a scope error.

Let me know what you think

Luc

Luc,

This online calculator yields 40nH for a 2" length of .05" diameter copper wire and a whopping 1440nH for the same length/diameter of nickel wire.

http://chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-inductance-calculator.htm

As your nichrome is a nickel chromium alloy, the inductance is likely different than that of a pure nickel wire, but it is very likely that your 2" of nichrome wire has a much higher inductance than the 40nH of a 2" copper wire.

PW

Offline Farmhand

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It depends on the bulbs and the circuit particulars.  I agree with Poynt99.

Cheers

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Offline tim123

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I've found I can run an incandescent bulb on the output of a car ignition coil (maybe 5000v, 1000Hz) at 40w, or an MOT (2000v ish), and it's exactly as bright as it is with 40w mains (at 240v AC, 50Hz). Just the same...

I was talking about a circuit with only the bulb in it, and maybe a spark-gap... Maybe I missed the finer points of the argument... Apologies...

Offline gotoluc

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Luc,

This online calculator yields 40nH for a 2" length of .05" diameter copper wire and a whopping 1440nH for the same length/diameter of nickel wire.

http://chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-inductance-calculator.htm

As your nichrome is a nickel chromium alloy, the inductance is likely different than that of a pure nickel wire, but it is very likely that your 2" of nichrome wire has a much higher inductance than the 40nH of a 2" copper wire.

PW

Hi PW and poynt99

I'm away for a day, so can't do more tests.
@ poynt, I'm quite positive the probes are correct and I had just calibrated the probe and scope.
I think PW has possibly found what could cause this anomaly. Thanks for looking into this PW
I didn't think it was real, I was just trying to find out what could cause this.

Is there a test I can do just to test my nichrome wire?... like if I remove the coil would that do it?

Thanks

Luc

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Offline MarkE

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Hi PW and poynt99

I'm away for a day, so can't do more tests.
@ poynt, I'm quite positive the probes are correct and I had just calibrated the probe and scope.
I think PW has possibly found what could cause this anomaly. Thanks for looking into this PW
I didn't think it was real, I was just trying to find out what could cause this.

Is there a test I can do just to test my nichrome wire?... like if I remove the coil would that do it?

Thanks

Luc
Hook up something that makes pulses with reasonably fast edges through a 100 Ohm resistor and look at the response. 

Offline poynt99

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Luc,

Before you change anything I would suggest one very simple test to prove if the 180ยบ phase shift is due to the nichrome wire inductance or not, and that is to perform the same test at a frequency of 1kHz.

If the phase shift is still there, then there is a signal inversion somewhere. If the phase shift changes to what we would normally expect, then it is most likely due to the inductance in your nichrome wire CSR.

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Offline tinman

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I was talking about a circuit with only the bulb in it, and maybe a spark-gap... Maybe I missed the finer points of the argument... Apologies...

Sorry Tim. I thought you were talking in reference to Verpies video.
Ofcourse there is no rocket science involved with the schematic i posted-it was just a simple way to show that what verpies showed in his video,can be achieved in many way's. Ofcourse we know that G1 only has the potential difference in voltage from B+ to C1+,so the voltage is very low,but the current remains the same across the input side of the system as a whole.My questions wernt me asking for answers,they were directed at those who may have wanted answers them self. It's realy nothing more than a buck boost converter with a mechanical/electromagnetic trigger.

Offline gotoluc

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Hi Poynt and anyone else interested.

I made a video of the Bifilar Toroid under test and found another coil which happen to be the same DC resistance 0.6 Ohm as the toroid and connected it to compare the two at different frequencies.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IinbBzcjojY&feature=youtu.be

I'm not claiming anything, I just find it interesting and would be interested to know what can cause this.

Thanks for your time

Luc

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Offline poynt99

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I don't know for certain Luc, but if I was to guess, I would say that your bifilar connection may be in error, and your toroid is actually a small capacitor, not an inductor. Can you measure a DC resistance between those two leads?

Your toroid seems to be working like a capacitor; low current at low frequency, higher current at higher frequency.

Offline Magluvin

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Hi Poynt and anyone else interested.

I made a video of the Bifilar Toroid under test and found another coil which happen to be the same DC resistance 0.6 Ohm as the toroid and connected it to compare the two at different frequencies.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IinbBzcjojY&feature=youtu.be

I'm not claiming anything, I just find it interesting and would be interested to know what can cause this.

Thanks for your time

Luc

Hey Luc

The 2 coils have the same resistance, but they have way different inductance, and capacitance.

The toroid has more inductance and capacitance. That coil may not allow much current above 100 or even 200hz let alone 1khz as a coil alone, not in resonance.   Does your sig board do sweeps? I might think that there is a lower than 4mhz resonant freq for the toroid, by the looks of it anyways, especially if it is series bifi.

If it really is set as series bifi, and it really only conducts well at around 4mhz, then the other coil will be way above that before it rings.

Mags






Offline gotoluc

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I don't know for certain Luc, but if I was to guess, I would say that your bifilar connection may be in error, and your toroid is actually a small capacitor, not an inductor. Can you measure a DC resistance between those two leads?

Your toroid seems to be working like a capacitor; low current at low frequency, higher current at higher frequency.

Hi poynt,

there's no error in my bifilar connections!  I've been winding series bifilar for some years, so that's not a possibility. Also, I can measure DC resistance between leads and posted it above ( 0.6 Ohms ) in my post with the video.

I would agree that it's an Inductor behaving like a capacitor!... that's why I wound this toroid to test the possibilities.
Maybe we can make Inductive Capacitors... what do you think about that?

I'll be working on this and posting videos.

Luc

Offline picowatt

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Hi Poynt and anyone else interested.

I made a video of the Bifilar Toroid under test and found another coil which happen to be the same DC resistance 0.6 Ohm as the toroid and connected it to compare the two at different frequencies.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IinbBzcjojY&feature=youtu.be

I'm not claiming anything, I just find it interesting and would be interested to know what can cause this.

Thanks for your time

Luc

Luc,

All three of the resistors in your video are wirewound.

The LVR series is specified as "low inductance", but the actual inductance is not given in the data sheet.

The RS series was available in a "non-inductive" wind, but they would have then had the "R" replaced with an "N" (i.e., "NS" series), so I would consider the RS inductive.

Be aware that a lot of manufacturers consider anything under 100nH as being low or non-inductive, which, for low value resistors used at higher operating frequencies, is way too much inductance.  The best I have been able to find are Caddock units specified as 4nH when measured .1" from the resistor body (which adds 0R1 at 4MHz).

A rough estimate to follow for a "normal" sized straight wire is ~20nH per inch, which is ~0R5 of reactance at 4MHz.  Therefore, a 0.2" length of wire is ~0R1 at 4MHz.  That's means that just 0.1" of wire at each end of a "non-inducive" 0R1 resistor will add another 0R1 of reactance to that resistor at 4MHz (effectively doubling its value).  A six inch cliplead has about 3R of reactance at 4MHz.

Don't you have some small wattage (1/4W or 1/2W) carbon or MF resistors that you can neatly parallel (very short leads) to make a low value CSR?  Putting resistors in parallel (with very short/neat leads) also places their inductance in parallel which reduces the total inductance. 

Using a larger value resistor for your CSR (=/>1R) will also reduce CSR measurement errors due to inductive reactance.  Roughly speaking, assuming zero inductance resistors, a 0R1 CSR with 0.1" leads is 0R2 at 4MHz (100% error), a 1R CSR with 0.1" leads is 1R1 at 4MHz (a 10% error), and a 10R CSR with 0.1" leads is 10R1 at 4MHz (a 1% error).

PW

 

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