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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 261794 times)

Offline d3x0r

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another generator/motor setup


http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:_Nigerian_QMoGen_Plans


 [/size]U.S. Patent 7,095,126 B2[/size]


pdf attached


alternator/generator;  He claims the magic is in the 60W lightbulb connected to one 400W inverter which is connected for loopback; and running another 1200W inverter for external loads.


(Although at a glance looks like gotoluc has been pretty forthcoming with all information already :) )

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Offline allcanadian

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@D3xOr
Quote
another [color=rgb(27, 142, 222) !important]generator[/color]/motor setuphttp://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:_Nigerian_QMoGen_Plans[/size]U.S. Patent 7,095,126 B2[/size]


I think the patent is a red herring, first there are hundreds of motor/generator patents that utilize inverters as such they are prior art not disclosed rendering the patent null and void. In fact nothing new in any way has been disclosed relative to the prior art that already exists rendering the patent void. As such I have no idea why a patent would be granted however it is from Nigeria = run away, run away.


AC




Offline hartiberlin

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Here are some simple diagrams I made a while ago to explain this same power polarity issue to Rosemary Ainslie, because she had (has) the same mental block about this.

poynt99, This would be only valid, if we would be discussing i^2*R losses inside the Generator or the
power losses inside a battery inner resistance, which does not apply at this
circuit over here. So a BIG NO to inverting the 2nd channel on the Scope !

We really need to see the input power into the LCR tank circuit and so we need the scond channel not to be inverted !

Regards, Stefan.

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Offline hartiberlin

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Here is another test from Darcy Klyne:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAHyk4aN-2E

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Offline poynt99

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poynt99, This would be only valid, if we would be discussing i^2*R losses inside the Generator or the
power losses inside a battery inner resistance, which does not apply at this
circuit over here. So a BIG NO to inverting the 2nd channel on the Scope !

We really need to see the input power into the LCR tank circuit and so we need the scond channel not to be inverted !

Regards, Stefan.
Stefan, I don't think we are discussing the same topic!

Proper phase of the measurement probes is of the utmost importance in this situation, and it certainly is relevant here.

We ARE attempting to get the input power from the grid, and in order to do that we need to set up the probes as I have shown AND invert CH2 in the scope. Please go back and study my diagrams more; it is very clear as to why this must be done this way in this case.

Offline poynt99

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Hi poynt,

please find the attached scope shots below. First is the standard way I've been doing it and the second one is selecting Invert in channel 2 menu.

This is my circuit powered by my variac from the grid and with a 5 Ohm 1% 50w rated load Resistor on the Neutral leg of the primary (per CSR). Channel 3 is displaying the voltage across that load. I didn't connect channel 3 probe ground so not to affect CSR. So all ground points are standard Grid side Neutral after the 0.1 Ohm CSR

Let me know what you thing

Luc
Luc.

I see the problem now, and silly of me to have missed it before.

Your MATH trace measurements, i.e. MATH max and MATH min, are not the ones you need to be using. The measurement that you need to use in order to see what the net power is, i.e. net going back to the grid, or net being consumed by the circuit, is the MEAN (average) of the trace. This is a single measurement and will tell us the net average value of the MATH trace. Now, in order to get a relatively accurate measurement of the average power, you need to display about 10 cycles. So get about 10 or more cycles on the display and use "MEAN", not "Cycle MEAN" measurement on the MATH trace.

Test again using this setting, both with CH2 not inverted and inverted. They should produce opposite numbers, for eg. +10VV, and -10VV.

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Offline gotoluc

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Okay poynt, will give that a try after dinner.

Luc

Offline poynt99

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At everyone,

I've attached 2 scope shots. The only change in the circuit  between both scope shots is, the first is with the Secondary shorted and the second is with the Secondary open.

Now you can see what happens in each case and why the preferred is with the secondary shorted.

Luc
Luc,

In the second shot with the secondary open, it appears that the MOT is going into core saturation. I'm not sure why it would be doing so as the primary current is not that high, is it?

I've posted this to some guys that are smarter than me (doesn't take much), so we'll see what they say.

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Offline gotoluc

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Luc,

In the second shot with the secondary open, it appears that the MOT is going into core saturation. I'm not sure why it would be doing so as the primary current is not that high, is it?

I've posted this to some guys that are smarter than me (doesn't take much), so we'll see what they say.

I don't know? all I see is the primary current is 327mA with Secondary Shorted and more then doubles 768mA when open.

I'll let the smarter ones figure this out

Luc

Offline poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2013, 03:41:58 AM »
Looks like it might be core saturation.

Quote
The transformer is designed to be as cheap to manufacture as possible, with no regard for efficiency. This is because it is the manufacturer who pays for the copper and iron, but the user who pays for the energy consumed. Thus the iron area is minimised which results in the core being taken well into saturation with result high core losses. The copper area is also minimised, resulting in high copper losses. The heat that these generate is handled by forced air cooling, usually by the same fan that is required to cool the magnetron. The core saturation is not part of the non-ideal classification, it is merely as a result of the economics of manufacture.
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Microwave_oven_transformer

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2013, 03:41:58 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2013, 04:06:47 AM »
Luc.

I see the problem now, and silly of me to have missed it before.

Your MATH trace measurements, i.e. MATH max and MATH min, are not the ones you need to be using. The measurement that you need to use in order to see what the net power is, i.e. net going back to the grid, or net being consumed by the circuit, is the MEAN (average) of the trace. This is a single measurement and will tell us the net average value of the MATH trace. Now, in order to get a relatively accurate measurement of the average power, you need to display about 10 cycles. So get about 10 or more cycles on the display and use "MEAN", not "Cycle MEAN" measurement on the MATH trace.

Test again using this setting, both with CH2 not inverted and inverted. They should produce opposite numbers, for eg. +10VV, and -10VV.

Okay poynt,

below is the circuit under a 10 Ohm 1% 50W Load Resistor at 21.3v RMS = 45 Watts

First shot is standard and next shot is Inverted.

Let me know what you think

Luc

Offline poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2013, 04:16:33 AM »
Okay poynt,

below is the circuit under a 10 Ohm 1% 50W Load Resistor at 21.3v RMS = 45 Watts

First shot is standard and next shot is Inverted.

Let me know what you think

Luc
Luc,

I think something is not right.

First, I don't know if it is just the snapshot itself that is so pixelated, or if the scope itself is really showing such degradation in the wave forms. This might be affecting the measurement. What record length are you using in the scope?

The MATH MEAN value should be the same but opposite polarity when inverting CH2. So that is confirming that something is not quite right.

btw, I performed a similar test today with a Tek scope with just a simple capacitor and resistor in series, to get a phase shift between the voltage and current. I confirmed that the computed power is the same but changes polarity when one channel is inverted.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2013, 04:26:32 AM »
Stefan, I don't think we are discussing the same topic!

Proper phase of the measurement probes is of the utmost importance in this situation, and it certainly is relevant here.

We ARE attempting to get the input power from the grid, and in order to do that we need to set up the probes as I have shown AND invert CH2 in the scope. Please go back and study my diagrams more; it is very clear as to why this must be done this way in this case.

No you are wrong,
we want to see the power used up by the LCR circuit and this is why the 2nd channel DOES NOT NEED TO BE INVERTED !

If this power is negative on the Math line we can see, that the circuit is just pumping back power into the grid.

How you want to measure it is not current standard and confusing !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2013, 05:29:16 AM »
Luc,

I think something is not right.

First, I don't know if it is just the snapshot itself that is so pixelated, or if the scope itself is really showing such degradation in the wave forms. This might be affecting the measurement. What record length are you using in the scope?

The MATH MEAN value should be the same but opposite polarity when inverting CH2. So that is confirming that something is not quite right.

btw, I performed a similar test today with a Tek scope with just a simple capacitor and resistor in series, to get a phase shift between the voltage and current. I confirmed that the computed power is the same but changes polarity when one channel is inverted.

Maybe consider what you're wanting to see is not correct?... I've asked other EE and they don't agree with inverting chanel 2.

Have a look at the scope shots below. I've used a transformer that's not ideal for the effect, so it will use more power then it can return. The first scope shot is standard and the second is inverted.

When a circuit uses power, the math will mostly be above the Zero line, like the first scope shot. By inverting Chanel 2 you are making the math do the opposite. I think there is your problem?

Luc

 

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