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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 266730 times)

Offline d3x0r

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So... I would be curious of measurements with the probe on the resistor side of the cap as the voltage for the existing CSR, non inverted vs the differenece across a CSR from power...


to avoid shorting your scope from ground to hot, just move the probe, keep the common... but then the current is inverse, and the current is the difference (a-b) of the probes... which would be nice if you could then have a*(b-a)    // maybe a-b there is a negative... but the voltage would be subtracted from the other side.. and inverted.... so a*(a-b) for power on the AC side...

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Offline deslomeslager

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The second link doesn't seem to work.

Just curious what is there.

Index of /ftp/Overunity.com - Forum members/poynt99

    Parent Directory
    Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.1.pdf
    Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.2.pdf
    Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.3.pdf
    Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.4.pdf

Link is fine ;-)

Offline poynt99

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You can find those documents (and others of mine as well as other folks') by clicking on "Upload/Download" over to the left under the "Navigation" section of this forum.

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Offline cristopalba

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Good evening Gentlemen
The world, attending in the debate . You will your succeed or not? That's the question. I personally do not want to get in a dispute (do not speak English), I just want to say that I, at a lower level, I tried without Oscilloscope current probes without alterntive or continue, to put into operation this circuit. How do you like it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT6SsRdU_8
Master Luc or Poynt ......
best regards
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:49:02 PM by cristopalba »

Offline Turbo

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I found these documents to be way too complicated and also incorrect.

Especially this sentence:

'Pulsing directly from a 9V battery isn’t going to cut it.'

Is incorect.
So then my question is where upon you base that conclusion.
Have you tried it?

I have.


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Offline energy1234hope

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 Thanks to a gentleman  at energetic forum for this very interesting video of luc's gift to us all hope you enjoy i thought it very interesting, i think luc will if he hsa not seen it yet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLiEwfrxX7w

Offline Mobigozer

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Hi guys,
Does the comments of Doug Konzen add to this subject?
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Doug_Konzen_%28Konehead%29_on_Self-Looped_Generators

So feed the power to a capacitor, switch it off and have the capacitor load a battery that feeds the motor again that drives the generator?
Hns

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Offline Farmhand

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For the most part with low powers and small currents and with the load distribution in the average household power factor correction is not an issue, eg. if I run a transformer from a power strip at part load say 60 Watts real power on the meter and see a PF of 0.6, then all I need do to get a power factor of  very close to 1.0 is plug a resistive load into the power strip (like a 60 watt incandescent globe) or other reactive power converting device. And "magically" if the 60 Watt globe requires 60 Watts to run it won't draw 60 Watts extra when I turn it on, it will only draw the difference between the reactive power from the transformer which it will convert to real power by using it and the power it requires in total, that in turn will change the power factor as there is now virtually no power returned through the lines from the power strip back to the wall. That is not using reactive power though that is converting reactive power to real power at almost 1:1 efficiency.  So if there is, just say 20 Watts reactive power from the transformer then the globe only needs to draw 40 Watts or so from the wall because it can use the unused power being returned from the transformer before it can leave the power strip. So the devices plugged into the power strip can be power factor 1.00 as a whole when one or more has a bad power factor in itself. There is nothing free about converting reactive power to real power. It is just an improvement in efficiency. A simple cheap Watt meter will tell us this, try it and see.  :)

If any reactive power makes it back out of the house to the lines it is not paid for, we only pay for the reactive power related resistive losses on our side of the meter.

However with a high power inductive load correcting the power factor in some way is a good idea if the PF is bad.

Too much reactive power destroys regular inverters, Luc found that out, which is why I suggested he try it. Cheap inverters are very dangerous in a house they can get high resistance shorts when they fail and smoke right up without blowing the fuses. A resistive load in parallel with the inductive load can maybe mitigate that issue.

Inverters with non sinusoidal wave forms might have other issues with inductive loads.

Happy, safe and efficient power usage to all.

Cheers

Offline MarkE

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That is more or less correct but not quite.  The power utility looks like a very low, but non-zero impedance.  When the load in a home has any reactive loads, the power factor will be less than 1.0 which means that the volt ampere product will be bigger than the real power delivered to the premise.  The VA product determines heating in the utility's distribution network, whereas the real power is the actual useful power delivered to the premise.  Disc style power meters only register real power.  If you have an old fashioned power meter power factor is only an issue when reactive loads turn on and off.  At those times the line can sag or peak which can be hard on electronics.

Smart meters record both real power and VA product.   Some power utilities are lobbying to change residential billing from real power to VA product.  If they do that, then correcting power factor may be worthwhile.  Unless premise wiring is really bad, and that would be a fire hazard, to a first approximation all loads act in parallel.  A resistive light bulb or heater doesn't so much use up the stored energy from a reactive load like a big single phase pool pump, it just dilutes the effect of such a reactive load on the overall power factor value.  In other words to a first approximation reactive and resistive loads act independently: resistive loads draw their current in phase with the line voltage whether or not reactive loads are present, and the reactive loads draw their current at whatever phase offset their complex impedance dictates.  This is because of that low power utility impedance. 

The discouraging parts of this to anyone looking for an advantage by manipulating reactive circuits are:  The power utility already gets their due for all real power taken by a residence.  Making the power drawn more reactive doesn't reduce the real power taken, it increases it slightly due to imperfect inductors and capacitors.  Making the the power drawn more reactive can have negative side effects on electronics.  Making the power drawn more reactive heats up the utility wiring more.  If power is made very reactive the additional wire heating can become a fire hazard.  If the power utilities get their way, eventually we will all pay for reactive power even though it doesn't do any useful work.  If that day comes then depending on what's in the house and the cost of a PFC corrector, an automatic power factor corrector could save money.  Energy efficient motor / drive combinations such as found in energy efficient washing machines and pool pumps have built-in PFC correction, just like most PC power supplies now do.

So enjoy playing with reactive components and making measurements.  It is a good learning experience.  If you are in the unusual circumstances that the utility charges for VA product and you often have a low power factor then making or installing an automatic PFC corrector could save money.  Under all other circumstances messing around with reactive circuits will at best be a damn it all.

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Offline poynt99

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Luc,

Thanks for the summary given in your other locked thread.
http://www.overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/msg383646/#msg383646

I plan on making my "Basic Power Measurements" video(s) either today or tomorrow. In addition to the basics, the reasons for inverting the current measurement scope channel will be illustrated.

Offline gotoluc

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Hi guys,
Does the comments of Doug Konzen add to this subject?
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Doug_Konzen_%28Konehead%29_on_Self-Looped_Generators

So feed the power to a capacitor, switch it off and have the capacitor load a battery that feeds the motor again that drives the generator?
Hns

Interesting circuit to try. It could be a way to use reactive power to an advantage?

Thanks for bringing it to our attention

Luc

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Offline gotoluc

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Luc,

Thanks for the summary given in your other locked thread.
http://www.overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/msg383646/#msg383646

I plan on making my "Basic Power Measurements" video(s) either today or tomorrow. In addition to the basics, the reasons for inverting the current measurement scope channel will be illustrated.

Been and still am looking forward in watching 8) your video tutorial.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline Farmhand

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I hear you Mark, So I'll outline what I did.

I took an extension lead from the wall outlet and plugged into that a "in line" safety switch, then the energy meter then I plugged the power strip into that, I ran a transformer from the power strip at PF 0.60, drawing 40 Watts and noted the current and voltage as well as the Watts of course the current x voltage was more than the watts, the meter show real power in Watts. The exact figures I cannot remember, but I can redo it on video if someone asks. Then when I plugged in a 60 Watt incandescent globe and turned it on the PF went to 0.98 and the volts x amps almost matched the Watts, so the globe used converted the reactive power or offset it, whatever it made the volts x amps match the Watts from the wall. So almost all power drawn from the wall behind the meter was real power, only a very small amount went back through the extension cable as reactive power to the wall.

Now, if I had plugged in the correct sized capacitor I would be correcting the power factor also, but that would be returning the converted reactive power and sending back to the transformer as apparent power again. The capacitor has losses as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just at present we do not pay for reactive power, I do agree it is a good idea to correct PF where possible as much as possible.

Cheers

Offline MarkE

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I hear you Mark, So I'll outline what I did.

I took an extension lead from the wall outlet and plugged into that a "in line" safety switch, then the energy meter then I plugged the power strip into that, I ran a transformer from the power strip at PF 0.60, drawing 40 Watts and noted the current and voltage as well as the Watts of course the current x voltage was more than the watts, the meter show real power in Watts. The exact figures I cannot remember, but I can redo it on video if someone asks. Then when I plugged in a 60 Watt incandescent globe and turned it on the PF went to 0.98 and the volts x amps almost matched the Watts, so the globe used converted the reactive power or offset it, whatever it made the volts x amps match the Watts from the wall. So almost all power drawn from the wall behind the meter was real power, only a very small amount went back through the extension cable as reactive power to the wall.

Now, if I had plugged in the correct sized capacitor I would be correcting the power factor also, but that would be returning the converted reactive power and sending back to the transformer as apparent power again. The capacitor has losses as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just at present we do not pay for reactive power, I do agree it is a good idea to correct PF where possible as much as possible.

Cheers
Farmhand most residences do not pay for reactive power ... yet.  But remember that what makes power reactive is that the energy is drawn in one part of a cycle stored and released back to the utility in another part of the cycle.  All energy that is taken and not returned is real energy.  When one does not return all energy stored in one part of a cycle back to the utility in the next part of a cycle, the utility sees that as real energy drawn and bills for it, whether the premise has old rotating disc power meters or smart meters.  If the utilities get their way, they will charge residences a penalty for power factors less than 1.0 the way that they charge many businesses for that now.

Offline Farmhand

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Yes I realize all that, I wasn't claiming anything for free. I was demonstrating that reactive power is not used for free. As soon as we use it it becomes real power and we pay for it.
The meter ended up reading the 100 Watts made up of the real 40 Watts of the transformer and the 60 Watts of the globe.  at PF 0.98 :) for the power strip in total. Pretty much all power accounted for and paid for by the sun. hehehehe

But there can be load balancing to negate reactive devices within a given system, such as I described. The system could be the power strip only, or it could be the entire house. The difference being the length of wiring within the system. So likely never see PF 1.00 always.

I agree with you 100%, if they charge us for "volts x amps product" we will soon correct our PF if we are smart.

Cheers

 

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