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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 253438 times)

Offline tim123

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Hi, I've been trying to replicate Luc's setup. I have a question:

As far as I can tell, Luc is taking 2 measurements with his probes:
 Probe A: Voltage - measured *before* the 'reactive circuit'
 Probe B: Current - measured *after* the RC

He then multiplies these 2 values to get 'power'.

My question is this: Is this valid? Can you measure from 2 different parts of the circuit like that - multiply them - and get a meaningful result?

Regards, Tim

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Offline wings

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perhaps already said:

the measures with alternating current require non-inductive resistor.

http://www.digikey.ch/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/Ohmite_273/PDF/Ohmite_Current_Sense.pdf?redirected=1


Offline poynt99

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Hi, I've been trying to replicate Luc's setup. I have a question:

As far as I can tell, Luc is taking 2 measurements with his probes:
 Probe A: Voltage - measured *before* the 'reactive circuit'
 Probe B: Current - measured *after* the RC

He then multiplies these 2 values to get 'power'.

My question is this: Is this valid? Can you measure from 2 different parts of the circuit like that - multiply them - and get a meaningful result?

Regards, Tim
Tim,

As best I can tell, if I understand Luc's connections, he is measuring power from/to the grid. CH1 is measuring the voltage across the source, and CH2 is measuring the current through the source.

Because of the probe configurations, a negative net power actually means more power is returning to the source/grid. Normally all sources have a negative power, and elements that dissipate have a positive power polarity.

Two things tell me that Luc has a phase inversion in one of his channels:

a) It is impossible to achieve 90 degrees phase difference (i leading v) between those two measurement points without inverting one channel. At least as I understand the circuit.

b) He has a net negative power, when it should be positive with the probe configuration he is using. One channel being inverted would result in both the wave forms he showed, and the net negative power.

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Offline poynt99

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perhaps already said:

the measures with alternating current require non-inductive resistor.

http://www.digikey.ch/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/Ohmite_273/PDF/Ohmite_Current_Sense.pdf?redirected=1
Indeed. Inductance in the CSR results in a larger current being measured. The inductance of Luc's CSR is unknown at this point, but should be measured.

Offline hartiberlin

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Hi, I've been trying to replicate Luc's setup. I have a question:

As far as I can tell, Luc is taking 2 measurements with his probes:
 Probe A: Voltage - measured *before* the 'reactive circuit'
 Probe B: Current - measured *after* the RC

He then multiplies these 2 values to get 'power'.

My question is this: Is this valid? Can you measure from 2 different parts of the circuit like that - multiply them - and get a meaningful result?

Regards, Tim

Yes, it is valid, as the current can be measured anywhere in the loop.
You only have to have to have the same ground lines for both scope heads at the same point.

If you do it like I have redrawn here, it is okay:

http://www.overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/dlattach/attach/130509/

You can also leave the Variac out there out of the circuit if you wish.

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Offline hartiberlin

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Indeed. Inductance in the CSR results in a larger current being measured. The inductance of Luc's CSR is unknown at this point, but should be measured.

Well yes, but the 0.1 Ohms shunt does not have a big inductance compared to the
MOT and thus you can neglect that inductance from the shunt.
It would not pose a big error margin.

I wish I had the time now and the components to do measurements myself, but I have
to work on other stuff now for chrristmas unfortunately.

Hopefully Tim or some other guys can replicate it and post also a few videos
of their measurements...

Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/series-resonance.html  The section "Phase Angle of a Series Resonant Circuit"


Well if Luc did not invert the shunt current channel on his scope, the current is capacitive and thus the voltage is lagging and the current comes first.
That tell us that his LC circuit resonance frequency from MOT Inductance and his 5 parallel caps must be way below the
60 Hz frequency and that it reacts capacitive and not inductive to the grid..hmm...

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Offline poynt99

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Well yes, but the 0.1 Ohms shunt does not have a big inductance compared to the
MOT and thus you can neglect that inductance from the shunt.
It would not pose a big error margin.
Stefan, what you are failing to realize is that the issue is with the CSR inductance compared to the CSR resistance which is what matters, not the relative inductance between the MOT and the CSR.

However, most likely the CSR inductance is below the level that would cause any significant error at 60 Hz.

Offline Farmhand

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I just realized a new thread has been started for discussion, very good idea Stefan. I'm sure many of us appreciate that.

I wanted to reply to Tim's post here - http://www.overunity.com/14013/reactive-generator-research-for-everyone-to-share/msg378726/#msg378726

Nice setup Tim firstly. I like your capacitor box, very useful thing to have. I would like to make a box like that with long throw switches to make sure there is no arcing to "switched out capacitors", I'm assuming your setup is fine, but I see some switches that have fairly close contacts when off and have had a wall switch arc over in an off grid experiment with about 600 volts applied and maybe some spikes involved. But with resonance we might get higher voltages but not spikes.

Here is a couple of clips of my TC sparking and lighting some bulbs, in the lighting vid I show the amp input but the voltage is out of view it does drop a bit, the amp meter is fairly steady. Lighting bulbs and spewing RF and sparks is not very efficient but fun.  ;)

Spark run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nkJtrKCdFg

This clip shows the big Tesla coil at the back, saves me posting a pic. Sorry for the mumbling, I'm not really saying much anyway. Just messing around, trying stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y1U1PSmAjQ

.....


Now back on topic, I think I agree with Stefan. It's kinda what I was getting at in the post before Tim's post that I linked above.

Coming from a higher frequency and tuning down with capacitance and going way past would mean a much lower resonant frequency. The effect of that I'm not so familiar with but I have done it at HF with air core TC's simply by exciting the transformer with a higher frequency till it happens.

I still say if a person has to produce their own AC power, these odd methods of trying to get some free energy won't be free at all. Creating lots of reactive power is not in my opinion a good idea.

One of the reasons I want to get the power factor of my Tesla coil as close to 1.0 as possible as so I might be able to run it from an inverter without making the inverter a smoke hazard.  :) If there is not much energy being sent back to the inverter it might be able to handle it, I have a true sine wave inverter 800 Watts designed to run inductive loads, it's transformer has one of those micrometals T650-55 Toroids in it. I haven't tried it yet though. I want to watch the power factor as I run up and down the BPS on the spark gap.

Cheers

 

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Offline poynt99

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Well if Luc did not invert the shunt current channel on his scope, the current is capacitive and thus the voltage is lagging and the current comes first.
That tell us that his LC circuit resonance frequency from MOT Inductance and his 5 parallel caps must be way below the
60 Hz frequency and that it reacts capacitive and not inductive to the grid..hmm...
It tells us that the circuit appears capacitive.

However, with 25uF at 60Hz, the most phase shift you can get is about 45º, with the inductance at 0H.

In order to get 90º of phase shift between those two measurement points where i leads v, the inductance would have to be 0H, and the capacitance only about 1uF.

The only explanation I can think of for what Luc is showing us, is that the circuit is highly inductive, and one of the scope channel signals is inverted.

Offline hartiberlin

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It tells us that the circuit appears capacitive.

However, with 25uF at 60Hz, the most phase shift you can get is about 45º, with the inductance at 0H.

In order to get 90º of phase shift between those two measurement points where i leads v, the inductance would have to be 0H, and the capacitance only about 1uF.

The only explanation I can think of for what Luc is showing us, is that the circuit is highly inductive, and one of the scope channel signals is inverted.

Yes, I agree,
a shortcircuit on the secondary of a MOT will make the MOT a very big choke, maybe having a few Henries of inductance, so I guess this circuit is probably much more inductive than capacitive.... so Luc should really check, if not one scope channel was unawarely inverted...
Could be probably somehwere hidden in the Scope menu..

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Offline tim123

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Yes, it is valid, as the current can be measured anywhere in the loop...

Hi Stefan,
  it doesn't feel right to me - because we're specifically phase shifting the current / voltage. Your diagram makes perfect sense - but it's quite different from Luc's measurement points.

I think we should probably be measuring both voltage & current (i.e. 4 probes) (EDIT: I mean 3 probes - only 1 needed on shunt):
 a) Around the whole circuit - as you suggested, and
 b) Around the shunt.

That way it would be possible to compare input with output properly... What do you think?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 01:01:47 PM by tim123 »

Offline tim123

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Nice setup Tim firstly. I like your capacitor box, very useful thing to have. I would like to make a box like that with long throw switches to make sure there is no arcing to "switched out capacitors"

Hi Farmhand, Thanks :)
  The switchbox has been invaluable for many experiments... The switches (ebay specials) are rated for UK mains at 240v, probably would cope with 2-3 that - but I rarely run it at high voltage. As you can see - the wiring inside is well exposed. One of the switches has just mechanically failed (200uF) so I'll have to replace that one day soon. :(

Quote
Here is a couple of clips of my TC sparking and lighting some bulbs...
Cool :)

Quote
I still say if a person has to produce their own AC power, these odd methods of trying to get some free energy won't be free at all. Creating lots of reactive power is not in my opinion a good idea.

Mmmm... I think we need to go back to the beginning, and discuss the aim of the experiment... Will follow up...

Offline tim123

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Guys, I think this whole issue is quite complex, and I think we need to start at the beginning, and define exactly what it is we're aiming to acheive / find out.

Is the point of the research to:
 a) demonstrate that 'reactive power' can do work.
 b) demonstrate that 'reactive power' can be created / consumed by capacitors / inductors.
 c) demonstrate that 'reactive power' can be created, and then can do work - all for free
 d) find a way to trick the electricity meter / company.
 e) something else?

Offline poynt99

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Hi Stefan,
  it doesn't feel right to me - because we're specifically phase shifting the current / voltage. Your diagram makes perfect sense - but it's quite different from Luc's measurement points.

I think we should probably be measuring both voltage & current (i.e. 4 probes) (EDIT: I mean 3 probes - only 1 needed on shunt):
 a) Around the whole circuit - as you suggested, and
 b) Around the shunt.

That way it would be possible to compare input with output properly... What do you think?

Quote
Tim,

As best I can tell, if I understand Luc's connections, he is measuring power from/to the grid. CH1 is measuring the voltage across the source, and CH2 is measuring the current through the source.

Luc is essentially measuring both the input and output power, the only difference between the two being what is dissipated in the CSR resistor. The volage across the source is essentially the voltage across the LRC network too.

And yes, the current can be measured anywhere in the circuit since it is a series circuit.

 

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