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Author Topic: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread  (Read 261846 times)

Offline rensseak

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2013, 07:59:56 AM »
@poynt99

you sound like "that which must not be, can not be" or "it cannot be what should not (be) possible". In germany we would say "was nicht sein kann darf auch nicht sein".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline forest

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2013, 08:46:52 AM »
I think Stefan formulated the most important question, how can we measure IF there is power send back to grid. I don't trust  scope, first it should be a device which could isolate that power (if there is any) from the power from the grid .

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2013, 08:55:40 AM »
Please read,with e-pencil and e-paper ? ::) ,this renewable energy network-circuit disclosing and the kind of wave-input-process:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=6&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19900104&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1

Sincerely
              OCWL

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2013, 08:55:40 AM »
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Online d3x0r

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2013, 12:26:33 PM »
What if it does; until you look to see if it does return power to the grid?

Offline nilrehob

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2013, 12:54:10 PM »
Three more videos on the subject:

Watt-Meter Resistive Load: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxB9Rcs7Udw
Watt-Meter Reactive Load: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnuusKhZzO4
Luc Reactive MOT Straight to Battery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LSTBMwC_lc

/Hob

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2013, 12:54:10 PM »
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Offline nilrehob

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2013, 02:25:38 PM »
Two more videos:

Watt-Meter Capacitative Load: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD02doq50lk
Luc Reactive Capacitor to Battery, no MOT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA6AQ7AGq88

I have found the manual for the watt-meter :-D
It says that it only takes measurements in quadrants 1 and 4 (consumed energy).
So if its in 2 or 3 (or very close to them I guess), it writes "err" in the "current page" and all power-related info says zero.

And some renaming of the previous three:

Watt-Meter Resistive Load: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxB9Rcs7Udw
Watt-Meter Inductive Load: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnuusKhZzO4
Luc Reactive MOT to Battery, no Capacitor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LSTBMwC_lc

/Hob

Offline poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2013, 03:51:21 PM »
Maybe consider what you're wanting to see is not correct?... I've asked other EE and they don't agree with inverting chanel 2.
Despite what Stefan says or your EE friend says, I am correct. I would bet my house on it. If your EE friend would like to discuss it, I would welcome the challenge. This is so basic, it is pitiable that no one will just look at it objectively and let the facts decide.

Quote
Have a look at the scope shots below. I've used a transformer that's not ideal for the effect, so it will use more power then it can return. The first scope shot is standard and the second is inverted.

When a circuit uses power, the math will mostly be above the Zero line, like the first scope shot. By inverting Chanel 2 you are making the math do the opposite. I think there is your problem?
When you say "circuit uses power" you should be more specific in what you mean. But if you mean everything to the right of the Grid generator, then you would be correct. The power in the dissipative elements, if measured properly is positive. Remember the mantra? Where are your probes for these two scope shots?

So, notice that the power remained essentially the same, but the polarity changed? The only problem is in the understanding of which polarity is the correct one. And since any OU claim hinges on the measured polarity, isn't it important to iron this problem out? If you agree, then please, anyone, explain how the diagrams I posted illustrating the power polarity in sources vs. loads is incorrect, or don't apply here.

Let me ask all here; in the simple diagram attached, is the computed power in VBAT and RLOAD the same polarity or opposite?

A question for Luc: please rearrange the probes in your diagram if you wanted to measure the power in your load resistor that is in series with the primary. Do you expect the power polarity to be the same as that when you measure the Grid power?

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2013, 03:51:21 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2013, 07:53:13 PM »
I think the things to remember about all this is that -

1) All the energy dissipated by the load is supplied by the circuit

2) All power dissipated by a load is "real power".

3) All the reactive power is a fraction of the applied power.

4) All the reactive power derives directly from the applied power.

5) Energy cannot be created.

In my opinion this is simply a matter of measurement errors.

Couple of questions I would have is that if extra energy was "supposedly" dissipated by the load then. Where does it come from ? How does it manifest ?

If extra energy is claimed to be involved then there must surely be a theory as to where it comes from, and how it manifests or is harnessed as well.

Most people reading the claim would think that somehow the circuit is able to manufacture energy.

Even if somehow the circuit did produce 10 Watts of anomalous power dissipated in the load for every say 300 Watts of applied power at a power factor of Zero can everyone do it ?

At the fraction of 10 free watts for 300 watts applied, it would mean 3000 Watts applied to get 100 Watts free. Completely unacceptable.

There doesn't seem to be any logic in it.
 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:52:15 AM by gotoluc »

Offline forest

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2013, 09:06:24 PM »
By your point 5 Farmhand, it's all about the view  ;)  if it cannot be created then it cannot be destroyed either...and so on...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2013, 09:06:24 PM »
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Offline dklyne

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2013, 09:24:29 PM »
Yes, good measurements are on the way soon.  Been a long time since i posted here on OU.  energeticforum is not talking much lately.  Stefan I should have been posting here a long time ago!
I think its too early to debate the ethics of the situation when the operating principles are still fuzzy.  We don't know what its doing to the grid yet.  I agree farm hand, especially in my case, that better measuring needs to be achieved.

I thought this was a particularly good price for three of these rigs and one PIC programmer for hall effect current sensor readings. I purchased from Cytron Technologies  Their website handled paypal, could calculate international shipping and account and invoice tracking is working on their website.  Got em on the way. 
Video of them in action.

3- SK28A     28 Pins PIC Start-up Kit     37.50
3- IC-PIC-18F2550     PIC18F2550     28.13
1- UIC00B     USB ICSP PIC Programmer V2010     18.13
3- UIC-A     ICSP Universal Socket     10.31
3- BB-ACS756     50A Current Sensor     46.88
3- DS-LCD-082A     LCD (8x2)             22.50
Total Amount  :       163.44
You save this with internet payment   :       18.16
Payable Amount  :       145.28
Shipping Fees  :      26.09
Grand Total  :       171.38

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2013, 10:16:43 PM »
Despite what Stefan says or your EE friend says, I am correct. I would bet my house on it. If your EE friend would like to discuss it, I would welcome the challenge. This is so basic, it is pitiable that no one will just look at it objectively and let the facts decide.
When you say "circuit uses power" you should be more specific in what you mean. But if you mean everything to the right of the Grid generator, then you would be correct. The power in the dissipative elements, if measured properly is positive. Remember the mantra? Where are your probes for these two scope shots?

So, notice that the power remained essentially the same, but the polarity changed? The only problem is in the understanding of which polarity is the correct one. And since any OU claim hinges on the measured polarity, isn't it important to iron this problem out? If you agree, then please, anyone, explain how the diagrams I posted illustrating the power polarity in sources vs. loads is incorrect, or don't apply here.

Let me ask all here; in the simple diagram attached, is the computed power in VBAT and RLOAD the same polarity or opposite?

A question for Luc: please rearrange the probes in your diagram if you wanted to measure the power in your load resistor that is in series with the primary. Do you expect the power polarity to be the same as that when you measure the Grid power?

Poynt, I would be the last one to say I know more than you when it come to measuring P in & P out.

You ask me to change things, I redo it with your changes then you say something is wrong! I don't understand what you want!

I don't have a problem doing it your way but you need to confirm what is what because everything is now upside down and it's going to take some time to get use to it.
You say channel 2  probe needs to be inverted, fine no problem
So now, what part of the math is the power used and power returned? below the zero line or above it?
You say the only math function needed is mean,  so will a negative mean be more power used or returned or the other way around?
Anything else I need to know to evaluate how much power a circuit is using compared to returning?

Thanks for your time

Luc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2013, 10:16:43 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2013, 02:20:52 AM »
Luc,

I made made a post while I was in the office, but got busy and must have forgotten to hit "Post".

Anyway, I know this must be frustrating for you to a degree, but stick with it. I may be doing a poor job of explaining things, but I am trying my best. Have patience with me please.


If you would be willing, I think it would be very beneficial to go back to the basics for a brief moment. Set up a test like I have depicted in the attached diagram. A simple DC circuit with say a 10V supply, a 100 Ohm resistor load, and a 0.1 Ohm CSR here.

Perform the battery power measurement as shown. Move the CSR and perform the RL power measurement (the load). Note the power polarity of the battery with no inversion on CH2; what polarity is it? Also note the polarity of the RL resistor with no inversion of CH2. Are they the same polarity?

If done correctly, you should get -1W for the battery power with CH2 inverted, and +1W with CH2 not inverted. In addition, you should get +1W for the load power with CH2 inverted, and -1W with CH2 not inverted.

If you obtain these results, then you have proven two things:

1) The power polarity of sources and loads is opposite.
2) The correct power polarity for Sources is negative, and for Loads it is positive.

And we know in order to obtain the correct power polarity, we need to invert one of the scope channels, because in both cases the probes are not placed in series adding, they are placed in series opposing.

This test would only take you 30 minutes or so, and it would be very worthwhile. From here we'd be ready to move on to your test apparatus measurements for which I'd be happy to draw up for you if you wish.

Note: It would be preferable to use a battery for these tests, but you could also gnd isolate your lab supply so that the CSR does not get shorted out for the RL power measurement.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2013, 02:42:59 AM »
So now, what part of the math is the power used and power returned? below the zero line or above it?
You say the only math function needed is mean,  so will a negative mean be more power used or returned or the other way around?
Luc, the MATH trace is an instantaneous representation of the power because you are multiplying a voltage by a current. In order to determine if the net average power is positive or negative, we apply an averaging measurement to the trace via the "MEAN" measurement.

When you use "MATH min" or "MATH max", you do not get very much useful information. Why? Because this is only telling us what the lowest or highest peak the trace ever reached on the scale. It doesn't tell us anything about what the over all average power is. So you can not simply add or subtract those two values to obtain the average power. The only way to do it properly is to use the MEAN measurement of the MATH trace. Once we establish what polarity the source (Grid) power is with a simple measurement as I show above WITH the CH2 inverted, the Grid power measurement will tell us if the net average power is returning to the grid, or being dissipated in your circuit. So a proper Grid power measurement that results in a POSITIVE polarity, would mean that more power is being returned to the grid than what your circuit is using.

Quote
Anything else I need to know to evaluate how much power a circuit is using compared to returning?
I hope the above answers this question.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2013, 02:51:12 AM »
@dklyne
small world, I use the Arduino Uno then calibrated voltage dividers/opto-isolation for voltage and a pair of 50 or 100 amp Allegro hall effect current sensors. No issues no worries , works every time.


AC

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reactive power - Reactive Generator research from GotoLuc - discussion thread
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2013, 04:44:46 AM »
Hi Stefan and everyone

I made this video as per Stefan request to see in fine details (scope) the power to the generator prime mover when the circuit is connector or disconnected.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yudbBBSS58&feature=youtu.be

Luc


 

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