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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 05:35:46 PM

Title: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 05:35:46 PM
Hi Folks,
  below is a sketch of a generator idea...

Basic Idea:

 - Wind turbines work because they can convert the motion of the wind into a rotary motion: Wind hitting the blade pushes the blade sideways (for example).

 - Conventional thought says (and it's probably right) that gravity can't be 'harvested' directly because it acts equally on all things,

 - BUT, A gyroscope can convert the downwards force of gravity into a sideways force - via precession.

 - So can we use a gyro to act like a 'gravity sail'?


Principle Of Operation:

The diagram below shows a top-down view of the generator, and a side-on view.

 - The gyros spin at the end of arms that are free to move up and down only.
 - They're hinged at the base.
 - The base is connected to the generator (probably via a gearbox) - and so is free to rotate.

 - When the gyros are spinning, gravity pulls them down.
 - They translate that force, via precession, into a sideways rotation.
 - The base turns due to the precession - and electricity is generated.

Will it Work?

I've played with a toy gyro - and the force of precession seems very strong... I suppose theory says 100% of the force is translated... I can't see any theoretical reason why this shouldn't work, but I'm here to learn...

Obviously there are practical considerations - like keeping the gyros spinning, and at roughly the right angle...

Your thoughts please...

:)
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: conradelektro on December 12, 2013, 05:54:59 PM
I think that it will not work, for the reasons given in this post http://www.overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/msg379322/#msg379322 (see my drawing, misconception about gyroscopes)

A gyroscope does not cling to space it just wants to keep its orientation. So, for action and reaction a gyroscope is like any mass, unless you want to "rotate around a gyroscope". Almost all spacecraft (satellites in orbit or sent to other planets) rotate themselves around three gyroscopes. But while rotating the centre of mass does not do any lateral movement.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: truesearch on December 12, 2013, 06:10:34 PM
@tim123:


I certainly like your "thinking-outside-the-box" idea  :)


But isn't a gyro really just a "flywheel"? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope ). Under the Wiki flywheel article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage ) section "Energy Storage Efficiency" it sounds like ultimately the mechanical friction will reduce the usable energy. Maybe. . . .


Best of luck!


truesearch
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 06:12:04 PM
Hi Conrad :)
  thanks, but I'm sorry, I don't really understand... I'm probably being a bit slow, but I don't get the connection between the diagram in your post & this idea.

I do get what you mean by 'A gyroscope does not cling to space it just wants to keep its orientation.' - but the question is about what happens when it's orientation *is* changed (or at least a force is applied), and it's restricted in it's range of movement...

If you set a spinning gyro at a 45 degree angle on the table - it does precess - and Mr Hand says it has quite a lot of force... It looks like it's translating the force of gravity into precession. Is it not?

The questions in my mind are
 - how much force is there? (Is it 100% of gravity?)
 - is it directly due to gravity? Do gyros precess in zeroG?
 - and can it be harnessed in the manner suggested?

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 06:21:28 PM
I certainly like your "thinking-outside-the-box" idea  :)

But isn't a gyro really just a "flywheel"? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope ). Under the Wiki flywheel article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage ) section "Energy Storage Efficiency" it sounds like ultimately the mechanical friction will reduce the usable energy. Maybe. . . .

Hi Truesearch, Thanks :)
There are practical concerns about keeping the gyros spinning etc. But they're not flywheels in the sense that the power stored in them is used up for the operation, as far as I know... So they could be on fine bearings, and even housed in a partial vacuum. etc.

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 06:34:41 PM
Hi Conrad,
  I read what you wrote to M Drive, that gyros: "just just rotate around their centre of mass."

Ok, I've done another sketch. Does this make any sense?

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 07:24:14 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

"Precession causes another peculiar behavior for spinning objects such as the wheel in this scenario. If the subject holding the wheel removes one hand from the axle, the wheel will remain upright, supported from only one side. However, it will immediately take on an additional motion; it will begin to rotate about a vertical axis, pivoting at the point of support as it continues its axial spin. If the wheel was not spinning, it would topple over and fall if one hand was removed.

The initial motion of the wheel beginning to topple over is equivalent to applying a force to it at 12 o'clock in the direction of the unsupported side. When the wheel is spinning, the sudden lack of support at one end of the axle is again equivalent to this force. So instead of toppling over, the wheel behaves as if the force was applied at 3 or 9 o’clock, depending on the direction of spin and which hand was removed. This causes the wheel to begin pivoting at the point of support while remaining upright."

So if you attach the wheel to a pivot (i.e. generator shaft) - does it translate the force of gravity into rotation? Apparently so.
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: truesearch on December 12, 2013, 07:42:08 PM
@tim123:


About all I can suggest at this point is a  "real" experiment to prove or disprove you idea . . . I don't have the gyroscope(s) to conduct the tests. I'm hoping that you will share your results with us  :)


truesearch
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 08:02:59 PM
Hi Truesearch :)
  I've found the forum members often can point out the flaws in my reasoning faster than I can find them myself... I've learned a lot since I joined.

Having said that, there are a few designs I've come up with that still look possible, and I will probably have to build them myself. I was just looking at bits for an experiment...

I'm now looking more at ways to tap into environmental energy - rather than magically create it from nowhere - I finally 'got' the conservation of energy. After all, Tesla believed in it...

It could be a good project to do inside during the winter. The workshop's not 'winterised' yet...
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: conradelektro on December 12, 2013, 08:36:01 PM
Whatever you do with gyroscopes it never gives you an "anker" or "some braking force" in space. Wave two gyroscopes, it might cancel the rotation, but never gives you lateral movement or a lateral force. The centre of gravity of your contraption never does a lateral movement.

Whatevers holds a gyroscope in its orientation is within the gyroscope, it is not done be "leaning" against space or by feeling some "friction" against space.

It becomes more complicated on earth (like the removing of a supporting hand). You can not do that free floating. On earth you always can create a point (fixed against earth, or not being able to go lower) against which you can "lean" and push yourself away.

All the (misguided) gyroscope-reactionless drives have somehow a point (supported by earth) against which they push at least some times.

It is often difficult to identify this "support point", it might be the point where a pendulum is suspendet or the machine jumps straight up from ground or it pushes against the air or there is some slight friction momentarily.

Only on earth where you can have friction or points against which you can "lean" one can get this misconception. Were we free floating in space, the so called reactionless drives would not deceive you.

If you want to move something through space you have to throw or to push some mass away, why not a gyroscope?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 09:00:35 PM
If you want to move something through space you have to throw or to push some mass away, why not a gyroscope?

Hi Conrad,
  this isn't a reactionless drive... I'm not sure you've understood my design. Are you getting your threads confused? I really appreciate your input, but I don't see how it relates. Sorry if it's me being slow.

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: conradelektro on December 12, 2013, 09:17:51 PM
Hi Conrad,
  this isn't a reactionless drive... I'm not sure you've understood my design. Are you getting your threads confused? I really appreciate your input, but I don't see how it relates. Sorry if it's me being slow.

Regards
Tim

I understood your design, but it is difficult and time consuming to go through the dynamics and peculiarities of each design, so I fell back to  the general principles one has to go back to. The work to apply these general principles to your design I want to leave with you. 

I am not realy interested any more in all possible designes with gyroscopes. And I do not want to spend the time by studying each design. Dynamics is not easy to analyse and to formalise, I would have to go back to my books from university and to the ones I bought because of my errors.

What is a physical law?

It is not something you have to obey or you pay a fine. It is an observation in nature. And if many trustworthy people make the same observation again and again under many different circumstances one formulates this observation by help of mathematics and calls it a "physical law".

So, by saying you do not believe a "physical law" you doubt the observations of many trustworthy people. This is why it is so difficult to find people who want to discuss the physical laws.

Physics was able to reduce all verified observations into a rather small set of laws (or formulas). If someone builds a contraption or at least describes it, it is then a lot of work to reduce this design to the physical laws. And it is in principle the task of a designer or inventor to do that. It means he has to study physics for a very long time. And it is just that which most designers and inventors do not want to do. They want the world to prove them wrong.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 12, 2013, 10:14:56 PM
I understood your design...

So, by saying you do not believe a "physical law" you doubt the observations of many trustworthy people. This is why it is so difficult to find people who want to discuss the physical laws.

Hi Conrad,
  I'm confused... You say you understood the design, and then you went on a polemic about breaking the known laws of physics...

Which laws of physics do you think the design breaks? The design is totally within the rules of physics - as far as I'm aware.

I'm certainly not claiming to know better than the physicists - so I must ask you again - are you getting your threads confused? You seem to think this is related to the M Drive thread. Please review.

Regards
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: TinselKoala on December 12, 2013, 11:54:23 PM
The design in the original post will turn the generator, if that's what you mean by "working". But as soon as the gyro arms are prevented from "wanting to fall" or "nodding", by pinning in the horizontal position, for example, the turning of the generator due to precession will stop. If the gyro rotors are heavy and moving fast, it can _appear_ that the "nodding" is stopped or is very slow, but if it is actually physically stopped then the precession stops too.

But what is really weird about these precession devices only happens when the device is _overdriven_ in the precession direction: that is, use the "generator" to drive the gyro assembly around _faster_ than it would normally go from just the precession of the gyros. Then the gyros will go _up_ just as Laithwaite showed in his demos, until they hit some restriction at the top of their arcs. The force to lift the gyros can be felt in the increased torque provided in the forced-precession direction... UNTIL the gyros reach a "top stop". At that point, the additional force in the precession direction _goes away_ and the gyros will remain at the top stop for as long as the speed in the precession direction is greater than the "natural" speed. Bearing friction will work to slow the "forced precession" rate but the gyros will remain up against the top stop. Once the precession slows down from the "forced" value to the "natural" value, then the gyros begin to "nod" again, driving the precession at its "natural" rate, which is constant, until the gyros reach the bottom travel stop. This behavior is really weird and needs to be experienced to be believed (by substituting a manual crank arrangement for the "generator" in the top drawing.) It's the closest thing to real "gyroscopic antigravity" that anyone has come yet, when that force you apply in the precession direction goes away as the gyros hit the top stop and stay there.




Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 13, 2013, 10:07:55 AM
The design in the original post will turn the generator, if that's what you mean by "working". But as soon as the gyro arms are prevented from "wanting to fall" or "nodding", by pinning in the horizontal position, for example, the turning of the generator due to precession will stop.

Hi TK :)
  thanks for joining in. I understand what you're saying. As long as the gyros *can* drop - they'll precess. Once they hit the stops, they won't.

Quote
But what is really weird about these precession devices only happens when the device is _overdriven_ in the precession direction...

That is interesting. I'm not sure I can see an application for the effect you described, however...

Overdriving the device to lift the gyros periodically could solve the problem of them slowly dropping, but that then leads me on to wonder again about how much power a) could be derived from the device, and b) how much it would take to life the gyros by over-driving the rotor.

Wikipedia has equations defining the rate of precession, but nothing about torque...

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: conradelektro on December 13, 2013, 01:04:06 PM
Hi Conrad,
  I'm confused... You say you understood the design, and then you went on a polemic about breaking the known laws of physics...

Which laws of physics do you think the design breaks? The design is totally within the rules of physics - as far as I'm aware.

I'm certainly not claiming to know better than the physicists - so I must ask you again - are you getting your threads confused? You seem to think this is related to the M Drive thread. Please review.

Regards
Tim

I wanted first to clarify the gyroscope because many people are not aware of the basics I tried to establish. Since your design involves gyroscopes I felt that this was on topic. (But may be you knew these basics, sorry.)

The rant about physical laws was a bit far off, but many people also do not understand that physical laws summarize observations. (May be you knew that, sorry.)

I wanted to go into precession later, but TinselKoala has saved me the work.

Precession is even more about these "support points" I was talking about. These intentional or unintentional fixed or at least friction points are the cornerstones of all misunderstandings in connection with gyroscopes and precession. Get this into your thinking and the gyroscope-precession muddle gets clearer, that is why I started there.

The way to understanding gyroscopes and precession is a long one and I wanted to start at the beginning, at the basics. But who wants to start at the beginning, that is so very boring. The hours one spends over textbooks to learn the basic facts of nature have to be avoided, who has the time for such nonsense. (Sorry, again a rant.)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 13, 2013, 01:44:58 PM
Hi Conrad :)
  no problem... I've tried to set out the question as clearly as I can. I don't think there's any controversy that the generator would turn - gravity would act on the gyros - they're free to move down as hinged - so they would precess.

There are equations giving precession speed, but I couldn't find anything about torque.

The question remains - would there be a significant torque on the generator?

It's apparently conventional science that gyros convert the force of gravity into precession, so that would suggest they could be used to harvest gravitational energy...
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: conradelektro on December 13, 2013, 09:54:16 PM
It's apparently conventional science that gyros convert the force of gravity into precession, so that would suggest they could be used to harvest gravitational energy...

I might find the time to consult my books about that, it sounds interesting because it would not violate the "support points", one even would want a support point to lean against. The support point would be the means to harvest gravity. I am of course very sceptical but I have never heard that idea before (but I never went seriously into "precession").

But think, let's say it works: it would be a reactionless drive. One harvests the gravity of earth and then pushes against earth with that harvested force. I would not be concerned very much that earth will move out of her way, but let's say you do it on a small asteroid.

My hypothesis: if one can harvest gravity one has found a reactionless drive? It might not be very strong, because the gravity of a small asteroid is not high, but still. Gravity is a very weak force. I am getting a fright, suppose the Australians use 20 Million gravity harvesters and we in Europe do not, the earth will be pushed out of her bearings. Help! Help!

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 13, 2013, 10:32:28 PM
Hi Conrad,
  I really don't think it could be a reactionless drive mechanism... You do seem a bit obsessed with them ATM... ;)

Gyros do change forces' direction - so action and reaction aren't necessarily opposite. And that in itself is pretty cool.

I wonder if there's an electrical analog to a gyro?

I currently think this design would probably work - but it would need a lot of engineering to make practical... Not as much engineering as a nuclear power plant though...
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 13, 2013, 11:12:58 PM
I would think you would have better results with a device that uses two external independent forces to generate power.
 
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 14, 2013, 12:57:26 PM
Hi Lumen,
  As I said - I'm pretty sure the back-force in your design does get transferred back to wheel 'A' - thru the bearings...

I think, by having to turn the thing yourself - you'll just end up with a UU device...
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 14, 2013, 04:34:06 PM
This is a different concept!

There is NO way any force can be transferred back to the rotating drive because nothing is connected.
The gyro could be on the same shaft as the centrifugal weight. Nothing attached to the drive wheel but a single bearing!

You would be simply using a gyro to work against centrifugal force and generate power. The center wheel only sees rotating mass.

Using precession to power a generator is impossible, because if you stop the precession the gyro simply falls.


Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: tim123 on December 14, 2013, 06:07:24 PM
Using precession to power a generator is impossible, because if you stop the precession the gyro simply falls.

Lol. You're right. I just tried it. Thanks, you answered my question. :)

Ok, perhaps you could explain your design... How are the bits connected to the drive disc? I'm not sure I get why you've added the gyros... I guess they'll try to keep their orientation - and work along with the weights?

:)
Tim
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 14, 2013, 10:16:39 PM
If you think of the generator mounted on the other side of the disk attached to the gyro and the weight attached to the shaft of the generator, then the generator could provide power to the gyro and a motor to turn the disk.
 
There would be no load on the disk other than some bearing and air resistance. The gyro, generator and weight would only appear as mass on the disk and could not cause any additional drag but still generate power from the rotation of the disk.
 
It also seems possible that the gyro could be run directly from some gearing to the weight. It may be easier to do it electronically but the possibility is there.
 
This was the first concept to provide power from the centrifugal forces on a rotating disk but the other concepts have some advantages and achieve the same goal. (they are just harder to understand)
 
 
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: telecom on December 15, 2013, 02:07:39 AM
Hi Lumen,

I think your concept may actually work!

Can you please expand on your other ideas, which you said are "more difficult to understand".

Thank you.
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2013, 03:31:26 AM
telecom,
 
The basic idea is to provide a stationary platform (non rotating) near the edge of a larger rotating disk.
From the view of this platform, it would be like sitting still but gravity is rotating around you. While on this platform, you do not need to build a wheel and move the weights to make it rotate, you only need a wheel with a weight on one side and the weight will fall to the rotating gravity causing constant rotation.
Using a gyro makes it easy to understand this concept and you can see there is no load on the wheel generating the gravity(centrifugal force).
There are other ways to create the non rotating platform without using a gyro but appear to work against the disks rotation even when they do not.
 
A simple connecting rod like used on a steam engine can provide the stationary platform that does not hinder the wheel though it looks like it should. (takes some thought to see why)
 
Even roberval linkage can provide the stationary platform and is the hardest to grasp, but again, it does not work against the wheel driving it.
This is the last thread I will post this in. (already in 2 others)
 
This is the most advanced concept because it can transfer the work from the wheels centrifugal force to the stationary world to do work for free.

 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2013, 04:44:30 AM
Here is the final explanation of why disk "A" can drive sprocket "B" but "B" cannot drive "A".
 
"A" can generate very large centrifugal force in "C" which can turn "B" at the same rate as "A" but without any additional load on "A". If "B" could inversely drive "A" then this surly would not be true since this would indicate that "B" could apply torque to "A".
 
Why it cannot:
Suppose we rotate "A" to 1000 RPM and the weights on 'C" are fully extended and "B" is rotating with "A" as expected.
Now while rotating, we switch the drive from "A" to "B". At first everything appears to continue, but "B" is not driving "A" it is driving "C". 
 
"B" starts pulling on "C" and the weight pulls inward slightly and  "A" increases in RPM to match the new shorter path of the retracting weights. Now you cannot let the weight back out or "A" will slow back down. So as normal friction on "A" slows it further, the weight on "C" is further retracted to maintain the RPM. (you surly cannot let off now or "A" will slow even further!)
 
You continue to keep the torque on "B" to maintain the RPM of "A" but the only way to maintain the RPM is to continue pulling the weights on "C" inward. Eventually, the weights turn fully inward and there is no longer any way to maintain the RPM on "A". Of course this would have been much faster with any load on "A"
 
So the fact is, you cannot drive "A" with "B" but you can drive "B" with "A" and with increased torque.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2013, 03:55:53 PM
webby1
 
That's why 'C" is never connected to "A" in any way, to avoid the torque on "C" driving "A".
Even torque applied on the edge of disk "A" can make it rotate.
 
The only torque that "A" ever gets from "C" is bearing resistance and this is occurring at very low rpm since most of the time "C" is simply rotating with "A".
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2013, 05:45:59 PM
Torque from "C" maybe, but not reactive force.

Use "B" to rotate "C", now try and stop "C" from rotating.

This reactive force is applied to "A", so not the torque of "C" but its resistance to rotation turns the axle for "C" into a fulcrum and "A" is what holds that fulcrum against motion allowing for an output from "C".  This then creates the torque that "A" sees, so not the "torque" of "C" but the resistance TO the torque on "C".

Lets completely stall "C" relative to "A", now use "B" to try and turn "C".

This can be done with a pencil, a string and a ruler.  Tie the string through a hole at one end of the ruler, put the pencil through a hole at the other end of the ruler, hold the pencil and pull on the string.  Which angle must you pull the string at to not move the ruler.  Any angle of the string will move the ruler, this angle will also correspond to any diameter given to "B", so no torque from the string but there is the reactive force from the string which moves the ruler and the ruler responds and transforms that into a torque.

You always want to tie "C" to "A", sure if you bolt "C" to "A", then "B" is simply the center of "A" as a rotational point and is directly tied to disk "A".
 
This is the common mistake that everyone makes!
That's why I said this is hard to understand. In fact "C" only appears to "A" as a single bearing with a weight on it.
All forces on the connecting chain are connected only to "B", that is also not connected to "A".
The connection from "C" to "B" in roberval and can apply no torque into "A".
 
Only a force at "C" appearing at some angle to "C" and "B" can be seen in "A". But all weights on "C" are applied only directly to the center of "A" because of the roberval connection to "B".
From visual experience your brain normally connects "C" to "A" and you think you see a problem, but that exact problem cannot exist as I explained earlier. Even if you continued to drive "B" after everything was already rotating which would have been the best condition for driving "A" from "B", disk "A" will still slow to a stop.
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: telecom on December 15, 2013, 06:44:17 PM
Hi Lumen,
where is the the  output, since there are no generators in a new design.
Is it a sprocket B?
With the generators as before, I would make B stationary.In this case the chain would
rotate the stator around the rotor attached to the weight. Under the load the weight
would pull from the radial line until it reaches an equilibrium with the load, IMHO.
But what exactly happens in a new design w/o the generators?
Thank you, this is a very exciting design, btw.
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2013, 08:31:39 PM
telecom,
 
The second design was to keep the "B" sprocket stationary and have the generators mounted on "C" as before.
When "B" is mounted stationary then "A" cannot rotate by torque on "C".

If this was not true, then we could simply apply a torque to "C" with a spring to a connecting arm (steam engine) and the device would run forever since the spring would apply torque but never unwind.
 
Because the torque is applied into "B" from "C", then it should also be possible to use "B" as the generator drive and nothing else changing. Simply a torque increaser.
 
I show all the designs because sometimes it is the reduction in design that also induces a reduction of operation.
One can always backup to a previous design to see what changed.

 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: telecom on December 15, 2013, 09:00:36 PM
Because the torque is applied into "B" from "C", then it should also be possible to use "B" as the generator drive and nothing else changing. Simply a torque increaser.
 
Hi Lumen,
this sounds more preferable in terms of wiring the generator being stationary, rather
than rotating like crazy.
May be you can draw a picture of this setup as well, if this is not very hard to do?
It would be interesting to run some calculations of a possible output for certain
rpm and the weights.
Thank you!
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 15, 2013, 09:43:34 PM
telecom,
 
Before you get too far into this, I plan to do some testing on this because something is missing.
Suppose "B" was rotating the same as "A" but with increased torque. Couldn't one then just place a connection between "B" and "A" and it would power itself?
I would think not since a connection of "B" to "A" would just simply make a flywheel.
This is where something is not understood. Does this apply to all the different designs, or just this one?
 
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: telecom on December 15, 2013, 09:57:29 PM
Hi Lumen,
IMHO you can't bypass the weight attached to C, which actually works as a torque
increaser under the centrifugal force.
But since this is not a textbook concept, everything is possible.
It would be really great if you can find some time to test this exciting concept!
Thank you.
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: lumen on December 16, 2013, 01:51:35 AM
telecom,
 
I have another project to finish this week, but hope to be building one of these sometime in January. I first need to decide which one to build.
 
I do like the concept of trying to build a gyro that runs itself from centrifugal force. It would seem interesting if a gyro could supply more stability than the torque required to operate it.
 
I think this could easily be tested with just a gyro and a drive system that provides all the rotating energy up through the pivot point.


 
 
Title: Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
Post by: cabbie on December 04, 2019, 07:49:57 AM
Hi guys,

I tried a version of this idea after watching this physics lecture by Walter Lewin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPUuF_dECVI). Near the end he demonstrates a gyro suspended in 3-axled gimbled arrangement as you might find in an old style aviation gyro. By placing a weight on the end of the gyro's axis, he demonstrated the resulting precession of the outer frame. As he puts it, "The spin angular momentum is chasing the torque." So it seemed to me the precession torque could be tapped from a drive shaft connected to the lower bar of that outer frame.

There is indeed a precessional torque to be gained by placing the weight on that axis when the gyro is spinning. However, apart from the argument that the axis is actually "dipping" slightly and if prevented from doing so the precession stops; there is a more serious problem which prevents power from being tapped from this process. That can be seen the moment you physically resist the movement of that outer frame, which is exactly what hooking it up to a generator under load would do ... The gyro immediately responds by flipping downward. That is, it reacts as if more weight has suddenly been added to the end of the axis. There is an equal but opposite reaction occurring, and again it almost needs to be seen to be believed since despite it making perfect sense to "nature", it appears non-intuitive. Unfortunately, it rendered my hope of a gravitational gyro drive mechanism unworkable.

Had Professor Lewin gone one step further in his demonstration to show this effect it would have save me the trouble, and it would have added one more sense of wonder for his students.