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Author Topic: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'  (Read 16644 times)

Offline tim123

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Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« on: December 12, 2013, 05:35:46 PM »
Hi Folks,
  below is a sketch of a generator idea...

Basic Idea:

 - Wind turbines work because they can convert the motion of the wind into a rotary motion: Wind hitting the blade pushes the blade sideways (for example).

 - Conventional thought says (and it's probably right) that gravity can't be 'harvested' directly because it acts equally on all things,

 - BUT, A gyroscope can convert the downwards force of gravity into a sideways force - via precession.

 - So can we use a gyro to act like a 'gravity sail'?


Principle Of Operation:

The diagram below shows a top-down view of the generator, and a side-on view.

 - The gyros spin at the end of arms that are free to move up and down only.
 - They're hinged at the base.
 - The base is connected to the generator (probably via a gearbox) - and so is free to rotate.

 - When the gyros are spinning, gravity pulls them down.
 - They translate that force, via precession, into a sideways rotation.
 - The base turns due to the precession - and electricity is generated.

Will it Work?

I've played with a toy gyro - and the force of precession seems very strong... I suppose theory says 100% of the force is translated... I can't see any theoretical reason why this shouldn't work, but I'm here to learn...

Obviously there are practical considerations - like keeping the gyros spinning, and at roughly the right angle...

Your thoughts please...

:)
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 05:54:59 PM »
I think that it will not work, for the reasons given in this post http://www.overunity.com/14090/m-drive-reactionless-drive-invented-by-me/msg379322/#msg379322 (see my drawing, misconception about gyroscopes)

A gyroscope does not cling to space it just wants to keep its orientation. So, for action and reaction a gyroscope is like any mass, unless you want to "rotate around a gyroscope". Almost all spacecraft (satellites in orbit or sent to other planets) rotate themselves around three gyroscopes. But while rotating the centre of mass does not do any lateral movement.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline truesearch

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 06:10:34 PM »
@tim123:


I certainly like your "thinking-outside-the-box" idea  :)


But isn't a gyro really just a "flywheel"? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope ). Under the Wiki flywheel article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage ) section "Energy Storage Efficiency" it sounds like ultimately the mechanical friction will reduce the usable energy. Maybe. . . .


Best of luck!


truesearch

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 06:10:34 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 06:12:04 PM »
Hi Conrad :)
  thanks, but I'm sorry, I don't really understand... I'm probably being a bit slow, but I don't get the connection between the diagram in your post & this idea.

I do get what you mean by 'A gyroscope does not cling to space it just wants to keep its orientation.' - but the question is about what happens when it's orientation *is* changed (or at least a force is applied), and it's restricted in it's range of movement...

If you set a spinning gyro at a 45 degree angle on the table - it does precess - and Mr Hand says it has quite a lot of force... It looks like it's translating the force of gravity into precession. Is it not?

The questions in my mind are
 - how much force is there? (Is it 100% of gravity?)
 - is it directly due to gravity? Do gyros precess in zeroG?
 - and can it be harnessed in the manner suggested?

Regards
Tim

Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 06:21:28 PM »
I certainly like your "thinking-outside-the-box" idea  :)

But isn't a gyro really just a "flywheel"? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope ). Under the Wiki flywheel article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage ) section "Energy Storage Efficiency" it sounds like ultimately the mechanical friction will reduce the usable energy. Maybe. . . .

Hi Truesearch, Thanks :)
There are practical concerns about keeping the gyros spinning etc. But they're not flywheels in the sense that the power stored in them is used up for the operation, as far as I know... So they could be on fine bearings, and even housed in a partial vacuum. etc.

Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 06:21:28 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2013, 06:34:41 PM »
Hi Conrad,
  I read what you wrote to M Drive, that gyros: "just just rotate around their centre of mass."

Ok, I've done another sketch. Does this make any sense?

Regards
Tim

Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 07:24:14 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

"Precession causes another peculiar behavior for spinning objects such as the wheel in this scenario. If the subject holding the wheel removes one hand from the axle, the wheel will remain upright, supported from only one side. However, it will immediately take on an additional motion; it will begin to rotate about a vertical axis, pivoting at the point of support as it continues its axial spin. If the wheel was not spinning, it would topple over and fall if one hand was removed.

The initial motion of the wheel beginning to topple over is equivalent to applying a force to it at 12 o'clock in the direction of the unsupported side. When the wheel is spinning, the sudden lack of support at one end of the axle is again equivalent to this force. So instead of toppling over, the wheel behaves as if the force was applied at 3 or 9 o’clock, depending on the direction of spin and which hand was removed. This causes the wheel to begin pivoting at the point of support while remaining upright."

So if you attach the wheel to a pivot (i.e. generator shaft) - does it translate the force of gravity into rotation? Apparently so.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 07:24:14 PM »
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Offline truesearch

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 07:42:08 PM »
@tim123:


About all I can suggest at this point is a  "real" experiment to prove or disprove you idea . . . I don't have the gyroscope(s) to conduct the tests. I'm hoping that you will share your results with us  :)


truesearch

Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 08:02:59 PM »
Hi Truesearch :)
  I've found the forum members often can point out the flaws in my reasoning faster than I can find them myself... I've learned a lot since I joined.

Having said that, there are a few designs I've come up with that still look possible, and I will probably have to build them myself. I was just looking at bits for an experiment...

I'm now looking more at ways to tap into environmental energy - rather than magically create it from nowhere - I finally 'got' the conservation of energy. After all, Tesla believed in it...

It could be a good project to do inside during the winter. The workshop's not 'winterised' yet...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 08:02:59 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2013, 08:36:01 PM »
Whatever you do with gyroscopes it never gives you an "anker" or "some braking force" in space. Wave two gyroscopes, it might cancel the rotation, but never gives you lateral movement or a lateral force. The centre of gravity of your contraption never does a lateral movement.

Whatevers holds a gyroscope in its orientation is within the gyroscope, it is not done be "leaning" against space or by feeling some "friction" against space.

It becomes more complicated on earth (like the removing of a supporting hand). You can not do that free floating. On earth you always can create a point (fixed against earth, or not being able to go lower) against which you can "lean" and push yourself away.

All the (misguided) gyroscope-reactionless drives have somehow a point (supported by earth) against which they push at least some times.

It is often difficult to identify this "support point", it might be the point where a pendulum is suspendet or the machine jumps straight up from ground or it pushes against the air or there is some slight friction momentarily.

Only on earth where you can have friction or points against which you can "lean" one can get this misconception. Were we free floating in space, the so called reactionless drives would not deceive you.

If you want to move something through space you have to throw or to push some mass away, why not a gyroscope?

Greetings, Conrad

Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 09:00:35 PM »
If you want to move something through space you have to throw or to push some mass away, why not a gyroscope?

Hi Conrad,
  this isn't a reactionless drive... I'm not sure you've understood my design. Are you getting your threads confused? I really appreciate your input, but I don't see how it relates. Sorry if it's me being slow.

Regards
Tim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 09:00:35 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 09:17:51 PM »
Hi Conrad,
  this isn't a reactionless drive... I'm not sure you've understood my design. Are you getting your threads confused? I really appreciate your input, but I don't see how it relates. Sorry if it's me being slow.

Regards
Tim

I understood your design, but it is difficult and time consuming to go through the dynamics and peculiarities of each design, so I fell back to  the general principles one has to go back to. The work to apply these general principles to your design I want to leave with you. 

I am not realy interested any more in all possible designes with gyroscopes. And I do not want to spend the time by studying each design. Dynamics is not easy to analyse and to formalise, I would have to go back to my books from university and to the ones I bought because of my errors.

What is a physical law?

It is not something you have to obey or you pay a fine. It is an observation in nature. And if many trustworthy people make the same observation again and again under many different circumstances one formulates this observation by help of mathematics and calls it a "physical law".

So, by saying you do not believe a "physical law" you doubt the observations of many trustworthy people. This is why it is so difficult to find people who want to discuss the physical laws.

Physics was able to reduce all verified observations into a rather small set of laws (or formulas). If someone builds a contraption or at least describes it, it is then a lot of work to reduce this design to the physical laws. And it is in principle the task of a designer or inventor to do that. It means he has to study physics for a very long time. And it is just that which most designers and inventors do not want to do. They want the world to prove them wrong.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 10:14:56 PM »
I understood your design...

So, by saying you do not believe a "physical law" you doubt the observations of many trustworthy people. This is why it is so difficult to find people who want to discuss the physical laws.

Hi Conrad,
  I'm confused... You say you understood the design, and then you went on a polemic about breaking the known laws of physics...

Which laws of physics do you think the design breaks? The design is totally within the rules of physics - as far as I'm aware.

I'm certainly not claiming to know better than the physicists - so I must ask you again - are you getting your threads confused? You seem to think this is related to the M Drive thread. Please review.

Regards
Tim

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 11:54:23 PM »
The design in the original post will turn the generator, if that's what you mean by "working". But as soon as the gyro arms are prevented from "wanting to fall" or "nodding", by pinning in the horizontal position, for example, the turning of the generator due to precession will stop. If the gyro rotors are heavy and moving fast, it can _appear_ that the "nodding" is stopped or is very slow, but if it is actually physically stopped then the precession stops too.

But what is really weird about these precession devices only happens when the device is _overdriven_ in the precession direction: that is, use the "generator" to drive the gyro assembly around _faster_ than it would normally go from just the precession of the gyros. Then the gyros will go _up_ just as Laithwaite showed in his demos, until they hit some restriction at the top of their arcs. The force to lift the gyros can be felt in the increased torque provided in the forced-precession direction... UNTIL the gyros reach a "top stop". At that point, the additional force in the precession direction _goes away_ and the gyros will remain at the top stop for as long as the speed in the precession direction is greater than the "natural" speed. Bearing friction will work to slow the "forced precession" rate but the gyros will remain up against the top stop. Once the precession slows down from the "forced" value to the "natural" value, then the gyros begin to "nod" again, driving the precession at its "natural" rate, which is constant, until the gyros reach the bottom travel stop. This behavior is really weird and needs to be experienced to be believed (by substituting a manual crank arrangement for the "generator" in the top drawing.) It's the closest thing to real "gyroscopic antigravity" that anyone has come yet, when that force you apply in the precession direction goes away as the gyros hit the top stop and stay there.





Offline tim123

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Re: Gravity Powered Generator With Gyroscope 'Sails'
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 10:07:55 AM »
The design in the original post will turn the generator, if that's what you mean by "working". But as soon as the gyro arms are prevented from "wanting to fall" or "nodding", by pinning in the horizontal position, for example, the turning of the generator due to precession will stop.

Hi TK :)
  thanks for joining in. I understand what you're saying. As long as the gyros *can* drop - they'll precess. Once they hit the stops, they won't.

Quote
But what is really weird about these precession devices only happens when the device is _overdriven_ in the precession direction...

That is interesting. I'm not sure I can see an application for the effect you described, however...

Overdriving the device to lift the gyros periodically could solve the problem of them slowly dropping, but that then leads me on to wonder again about how much power a) could be derived from the device, and b) how much it would take to life the gyros by over-driving the rotor.

Wikipedia has equations defining the rate of precession, but nothing about torque...

Any thoughts?

 

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