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Author Topic: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped  (Read 76684 times)

Offline tim123

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2014, 01:49:07 PM »
(They don't call the lottery a "tax on the poor" for no reason.)

Most taxes are taxes on the poor...

I thought they called the lottery the 'tax on the stupid'...

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2014, 01:49:07 PM »

Offline Grimer

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2014, 05:57:18 PM »
Just the ones who _don't_ win!

(They don't call the lottery a "tax on the poor" for no reason.)
And what about the ones that do win?


If someone offered you a free lottery ticket would you accept it?

Offline Grimer

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2014, 06:47:07 PM »
Oh come on Frank. You are citing a third party's report of a device that someone showed to an eight year old child, many years ago.

Of course, like all such devices, it is no longer available for inspection, and there exists no further information or evidence of its performance other than the report of an eight year old child, filtered through at least one other party.


Your standard of evidence is very deficient if you think that is evidence of anything at all other than an uncle's playing with some children.
 

OK, I'll admit the evidence is very weak. However, the thing that makes me wonder is those vortex charity boxes. You know, the ones that you put a coin down a slide and it rolls round the vortex faster and faster until it exits the bottom at high speed and gives the wall of the box a terrific whack.


It's the type of experiment someone with your manifest skills could easily conduct - if only to slay the myth which travels round the internet on sites like Peswiki.


It would be a fun demonstration and sure to enhance your reputation as Al, oops, as TinselKoala The Myth Slayer. ;-)

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2014, 06:47:07 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2014, 12:09:26 AM »
The vortex boxes are fooling you too. The "high speed" at the bottom looks fast, but that's because the coin is going around a very tight circle. Actually, the tangential speed of the coin madly circling around at the bottom of the funnel is no higher than the vertical speed of a coin simply dropped from the starting height. The "miracle" is that the vortex funnel efficiently changes the velocity vector _direction_ of the "dropped" coin, so that at the bottom of the funnel, the coin flies off on the tangent of its circular motion and hits the wall of the container, instead falling straight down and hitting the floor. But the momentum of the coin is the same in each case (neglecting losses in the vortex "ramp"). Don't forget, as I momentarily did, that the coin is also launched into the vortex with some initial tangential speed by Mr. Hand.

Were this not so, I think you'd have a gravitational FE machine, since you could use the "extra speed" of the coin at the bottom of the funnel to make it climb a ramp back up to the start position, lather rinse repeat.

Quote
OK, I'll admit the evidence is very weak.

I can't resist pointing out that the evidence, in this case, is exactly as 'strong' as the evidence for the Tooth Fairy. The eight-year-old kid found a quarter (or maybe a shilling) under his pillow, the morning after he put a tooth under there, and many years later, told a friend of mine's cousin's uncle about it. And now I'm telling you. QED: the Tooth Fairy exists, by eye-witness account, unrefutable.

Offline Grimer

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2014, 07:41:29 AM »
...
Were this not so, I think you'd have a gravitational FE machine, since you could use the "extra speed" of the coin at the bottom of the funnel to make it climb a ramp back up to the start position, lather rinse repeat.
...


You would indeed have a gravitational FE machine - which is exactly my point.


You don't address the argument about the string pulling in the weight.


After all it's easy to demonstrate that pulling in the weight adds energy.  One only has to let a string pendulum swinging in a vertical plane impinge against a horizontal bar at the same time as the string is being pulled to see that the bob rises above its starting point.


I've actually carried out the pendulum experiment so I know it works.  8)

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2014, 07:41:29 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2014, 01:28:51 PM »
This one here is about as close as i have seen to a self runner. Im still trying to understand as to why the motor runs longer when the generator is hooked up to it,if the generator is another loss in the system.If a generator consumes more power than it delivers,then the motor run down time should be less when the generator is hooked up to it(or looped).Lets say the generator is 85% efficient-this would mean another 15% loss when looped. So why dose the motor run longer when this loss is added,and shorter when the generator is left open?.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl57y-c_bWc

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2014, 01:40:54 PM »

You would indeed have a gravitational FE machine - which is exactly my point.


You don't address the argument about the string pulling in the weight.


After all it's easy to demonstrate that pulling in the weight adds energy.  One only has to let a string pendulum swinging in a vertical plane impinge against a horizontal bar at the same time as the string is being pulled to see that the bob rises above its starting point.


I've actually carried out the pendulum experiment so I know it works.  8)
You know how you think it works, but if you think you are getting energy from gravity you are wrong. When you are pulling on the string you are adding energy to the system in the usual manner: by Mister Hand, and this energy ultimately comes from the Sun, through your breakfast.
Please review your Beer & Johnston.
https://archive.org/details/VectorMechanicsForEngineersDynamics

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2014, 01:40:54 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2014, 01:53:17 PM »
This one here is about as close as i have seen to a self runner. Im still trying to understand as to why the motor runs longer when the generator is hooked up to it,if the generator is another loss in the system.If a generator consumes more power than it delivers,then the motor run down time should be less when the generator is hooked up to it(or looped).Lets say the generator is 85% efficient-this would mean another 15% loss when looped. So why dose the motor run longer when this loss is added,and shorter when the generator is left open?.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl57y-c_bWc

That's a great demonstration! It's easy to see, from this demo, how people can fool themselves into thinking they are going to be able to make it self-run "if only" some little improvement somewhere could be made.

I don't know the answer to the question right off the bat, but I suspect it lies in the assumptions being made. Your video will no doubt make a lot of people start tinkering... like me, for instance. I'd like to know more about that generator you are using, and I wonder if I can get the same effect from my two little Delco motors.

Ah... there goes another Sunday, I guess. I just spent all day Saturday working on an electrostatic generator idea, only to find that it "works" but only makes a couple of volts max, so I'm ready for something else.

EDIT: Is there a big capacitor inside that generator housing?

Offline tinman

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2014, 02:19:11 PM »
I'd like to know more about that generator you are using, and I wonder if I can get the same effect from my two little Delco motors.


EDIT: Is there a big capacitor inside that generator housing?
Who's-mine in Luc's thread,or the one in the video i posted?

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2014, 02:19:11 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2014, 03:38:29 PM »
You know how you think it works, but if you think you are getting energy from gravity you are wrong. When you are pulling on the string you are adding energy to the system in the usual manner: by Mister Hand, and this energy ultimately comes from the Sun, through your breakfast.
Please review your Beer & Johnston.
https://archive.org/details/VectorMechanicsForEngineersDynamics


I know all that. But in the case of the vortex there is no string. Th coin is being forced in by the walls of the funnel.


You just can't get it can you.


But then you couldn't see the solution to the water and wine problem so it's not really surprising.






Offline mscoffman

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2014, 04:02:45 PM »
If acceleration can be considered a linear phenominon. RPM limitation has
to be accompanied by an *exponentially* increasing resistance, with the mathematical
intersection of the curves representing the final RPM limit. For example
"wind resistance" is function that is the third power of the velocity. The generator
has some efficiency at converting some mechanical resistance to an increasing
circuit voltage but will probably be more efficient than the exponential limiting function
is at limiting it, hence the RPM increases by an offset. Ultimately the exponential
mechanical exponential function still wins but at the new higher RPM.

To be self running the generator would need to produce all of the current required
to run the motor and so current from the battery should be supressed or reversed
(charging). Most likely the only effect here is to spilt the current supplied battery and
the generator so it is not an example of a self running cicuit.

Many Q-motor generators seem to use power regaugement. For example run the motor
on one 12Volt battery and see if power balance between the motor and generator is better.
You also might want to try the Oldsmobile high output 12v alternator into a Min Kota
multicircuit "alternator" battery charger which can charge all three batteries from
one 12V alternator without disconnecting them. A real good test would be to try
a very high RPM "electric leaf blower" motor through a high mechanical RPM step down.
A PMA permanent magnet alternator might be interesting with the understanding
that the motor is going to hit a "brick wall" RPM as the alternator voltage rises to the
battery charge voltage.   Caution; A system redesign will need to follow the discovery
of an OU configuration.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2014, 04:02:45 PM »
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Offline forest

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2014, 06:10:13 PM »
I think it is much simpler then you think... DON'T KILL THE DIPOLE ! First DC motor can be used as prime mover , because it is easier, it has to maintain the same or higher RPM then generator when coupled. Power usage is not that important. Then it's all about one trick I think but I must check it.....  :D  Very easy one in theory

Offline Grimer

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2014, 09:38:45 PM »

I know all that. But in the case of the vortex there is no string. Th coin is being forced in by the walls of the funnel.


You just can't get it can you.


But then you couldn't see the solution to the water and wine problem so it's not really surprising.



The fact a vortex does work on a  ball rolling down to the exit can be shown with an equvalent, abeit vastly more complicated system.


All a ball "sees" on its journey is a very small contact area with the vortex cone. If that changing area is always present and exerting the same force, then the rest of the cone is redundant structure. Anyone familiar with structural engineering knows what a redundant member is.
You can take it away and the structure is still stable.


So for every point in the ball's path the whole of the cone can be taken away apart from the small contact area and strut held in place by a suitable, albeit magnificently engineered, mechanism.


Think of it as a three dimensional balancing act of a ball on the end of a snooker cue.


To get the ball to its final destination the strut will do work as it pushes the ball towards the vertical axis of the vortex. This push will increase the velocity of the ball.


Push is the inverse of pull as explained at length in my publications.


Al could easily carry out an experiment to show this is true.


But of course he won't because he "knows" Jupiter has no moons.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2014, 03:19:58 AM »
Quote
Push is the inverse of pull
Finally you've said something that makes some kind of sense. You really should restrict your speculations about other people, though.



Would you like to see "al's" astrophotography rig? He is perfectly aware that Jupiter has moons, having seen them for himself.

Would you like to hire someone to do the experimental work that you think "al" could do? Can you afford it? Would you accept a "null result" from "al"? Have you reviewed your Beer&Johnston yet?


Offline Grimer

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Re: Electric Motor Geenerator/alternator looped
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2014, 06:21:27 PM »
Finally you've said something that makes some kind of sense. You really should restrict your speculations about other people, though.[size=78%] [/size]
...
Would you like to hire someone to do the experimental work that you think "al" could do? Can you afford it? Would you accept a "null result" from "al"? Have you reviewed your Beer&Johnston yet?


Now you're talking.  8)
Yes.
£2000 upper limit.
I'd accept if from Al in whom I have complete confidence.  ;D
Don't need to.

 

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